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Simplest answer why diamonds play/bank short - 08-20-2017, 09:21 AM

COMPARED TO GOLD CROWNS
i know this has been discussed alot but i still dont understand
why diamonds seem to bank short
thanks
  
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08-20-2017, 09:28 AM

soft rubber -
acts like a catchers mit -
deeper into the rubber reduces the release angle -



bill


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08-20-2017, 09:58 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by vasilios View Post
soft rubber -
acts like a catchers mit -
deeper into the rubber reduces the release angle -
bill
So.....
If we were to install Superspeed cushions the banking would match a GC?


There's more to it than just the cushions.


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Last edited by mchnhed; 08-20-2017 at 10:01 AM.
  
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08-20-2017, 10:01 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mchnhed View Post
So.....
If we were to install Superspeed cushions the banking would match a GC?
Good question. I guess you'd have a Diamond that's been Gold Crowned.

I think think they're both nice tables. I prefer Gold Crowns.
  
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08-20-2017, 10:04 AM

Old rubber not playing like new rubber

I'd venture to say, material composition??????

Is diamond using the same rubber that brunswick did 50 yrs ago?

The people that make the cushions back then using the exact same process, materials, machines to produce them as they are now? I'd venture not


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08-20-2017, 10:12 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by beneath_the_sur View Post
Old rubber not playing like new rubber

I'd venture to say, material composition??????

Is diamond using the same rubber that brunswick did 50 yrs ago?

The people that make the cushions back then using the exact same process, materials, machines to produce them as they are now? I'd venture not
So again....
Same Brand of Cushions.
Same Batch Number of Cushions.
Same Cushion Height.
Same Bolt of Cloth.
Same Humidity.
Same Ball Set.
Same Robot Cue.
Same Pocket Size.
Same Shelf Depth.
Same Time Zone.

*****Would they play the same?*****


No.

There's more to it than all of that.


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Last edited by mchnhed; 08-20-2017 at 10:24 AM.
  
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08-20-2017, 10:12 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by vasilios View Post
soft rubber -
acts like a catchers mit -
deeper into the rubber reduces the release angle -



bill
I have been under the opposite impression. Diamonds are springier, due to the rails being harder. It's spits the ball off shorter....? Softer rubber holds it longer yes, but forces it long, as the ball has a wider arc through the cushion...? Am I wrong here ?
  
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08-20-2017, 10:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mchnhed View Post
So again....
Same cushions.
Same age cushions.
Same Cloth.
Same Humidity.
Same Ball Set.
Same Robot Cue.
Same Pocket Size.
Same Shelf Depth.
Same Time Zone.

*****Would they play the same?*****
Again I'd venture not

2 different tables with different rail composition and construction


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08-20-2017, 10:16 AM

Artemis cushions vs Super Speed


  
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08-20-2017, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by mchnhed:

So again....
Same cushions.
Same age cushions.
Same Cloth.
Same Humidity.
Same Ball Set.
Same Robot Cue.
Same Pocket Size.
Same Shelf Depth.
Same Time Zone.

*****Would they play the same?*****

Quote:
Originally Posted by beneath_the_sur View Post
Again I'd venture not
2 different tables with different rail composition and construction
You are correct, Sir!


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08-20-2017, 10:28 AM

I can't wait to read more answers....LOL
  
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08-20-2017, 10:29 AM

My guess is angle and height of nose of rubber to table surface is different between the tables
Could someone who knows confirm or deny
  
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08-20-2017, 10:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbb View Post
COMPARED TO GOLD CROWNS
i know this has been discussed alot but i still dont understand
why diamonds seem to bank short
thanks
I don't know the answer. But there are many different factors that affect the rebound angle--some that want to lengthen it and others that want to shorten it. And there is a lot of these effects tending to canceling to get what we see.

Here are a few of those effects and what they depend on

A. (lengthen) topspin -- when an object ball rolls into the cushion, it has topspin. Some of that forward spin can remain just after the bounce (that is, the ball is coming back, but it is still spinning forward a bit.) This leads to the object ball curving back toward the rail in a masse-like effect. The amount of topspin that remains will depend on the slickness of the rail cloth as well as perhaps the profile/height. Also the stickier the bed cloth, the sooner after the bounce this happens and the bigger the apparent effect. This effect would be really big on new rail cloth and old bed cloth. [Banks hit hard come off shorter primarily because this effect is missing--the hard-hit object ball slides into the rail instead of rolling into it]

B. (shorten) When a ball goes into a cushion at an angle and does NOT have running english--the case for an object ball--it is effect has check/reverse english. This tends to shorten banks, and the amount it shortens them depends on the stickiness/slickness of the rail cloth. --small effect on new cloth.

C. (lengthen) inelastic/dead/not-lively cushions: tends to lengthen banks like a gold-ball or baseball going into softer ground--doesn't bounce as high.

D. (shorten) -- the crunched cushion wanting to spit balls straight out -- I don't know if this effect is real or not. My tendency is to think it is more myth than reality. I'd be interested to hear what Dave A or Bob J think.

So I don't know if there is a simple answer.


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08-20-2017, 10:31 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by realkingcobra View Post
I can't wait to read more answers....LOL
Glen
Could you give me the short answer and we can be done with this thread
Pretty please.
  
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08-20-2017, 10:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepage View Post
I don't know the answer. But there are many different factors that affect the rebound angle--some that want to lengthen it and others that want to shorten it. And there is a lot of these effects tending to canceling to get what we see.

Here are a few of those effects and what they depend on

A. (lengthen) topspin -- when an object ball rolls into the cushion, it has topspin. Some of that forward spin can remain just after the bounce (that is, the ball is coming back, but it is still spinning forward a bit.) This leads to the object ball curving back toward the rail in a masse-like effect. The amount of topspin that remains will depend on the slickness of the rail cloth as well as perhaps the profile/height. Also the stickier the bed cloth, the sooner after the bounce this happens and the bigger the apparent effect. This effect would be really big on new rail cloth and old bed cloth. [Banks hit hard come off shorter primarily because this effect is missing--the hard-hit object ball slides into the rail instead of rolling into it]

B. (shorten) When a ball goes into a cushion at an angle and does NOT have running english--the case for an object ball--it is effect has check/reverse english. This tends to shorten banks, and the amount it shortens them depends on the stickiness/slickness of the rail cloth. --small effect on new cloth.

C. (lengthen) inelastic/dead/not-lively cushions: tends to lengthen banks like a gold-ball or baseball going into softer ground--doesn't bounce as high.

D. (shorten) -- the crunched cushion wanting to spit balls straight out -- I don't know if this effect is real or not. My tendency is to think it is more myth than reality. I'd be interested to hear what Dave A or Bob J think.

So I don't know if there is a simple answer.
Artemis vs Super Speed


  
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