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Patrick Johnson
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01-15-2019, 04:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyInCali View Post
I can't get the hang of the long pause at the end of the backstroke though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
I never learned a proper pause but I can fake one if the situation demands it.
It's a work in progress for me - I tend to get caught up in the moment and my form goes all Filipino.

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01-15-2019, 04:35 PM

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Originally Posted by goettlicher View Post
To each their own!

randyg
No SPF? I thought the pause is what you teach?
  
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01-15-2019, 08:23 PM

A fast back stroke will almost always lead to a bad stroke. Sometimes a player can get away with it, but it's usually just a mess by the time the tip hits the cue ball. BUT, a fast back stroke with a decent length pause at the end can salvage the stroke timing and even produce a good result --- Not always the best, but good enough.

So then, why doesn't everybody just slow down their backstrokes? Many have tried but only few have succeeded. It's hard to change your stroke rhythm. In those who can't, they're much better off taking the pause.

When you think of a player who you consider to be a 'natural,' watch his backstroke. It's perfect.
  
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01-15-2019, 08:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
A fast back stroke will almost always lead to a bad stroke. Sometimes a player can get away with it, but it's usually just a mess by the time the tip hits the cue ball. BUT, a fast back stroke with a decent length pause at the end can salvage the stroke timing and even produce a good result --- Not always the best, but good enough.

So then, why doesn't everybody just slow down their backstrokes? Many have tried but only few have succeeded. It's hard to change your stroke rhythm. In those who can't, they're much better off taking the pause.

When you think of a player who you consider to be a 'natural,' watch his backstroke. It's perfect.
I have changed.
Pause before the last stroke, slow pull, a slight pause then shoot.
It took hundreds of straight in shots.
Pulling offline is a no-no as well. You can't correct an offline pull by getting back in line with the last forward stroke.
  
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01-16-2019, 05:05 AM

thanks to all who have responded so far
i am paying attention......
  
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01-16-2019, 05:11 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
A fast back stroke will almost always lead to a bad stroke. Sometimes a player can get away with it, but it's usually just a mess by the time the tip hits the cue ball. BUT, a fast back stroke with a decent length pause at the end can salvage the stroke timing and even produce a good result --- Not always the best, but good enough.

So then, why doesn't everybody just slow down their backstrokes? Many have tried but only few have succeeded. It's hard to change your stroke rhythm. In those who can't, they're much better off taking the pause.

When you think of a player who you consider to be a 'natural,' watch his backstroke. It's perfect.
my rhythm used to be the backswing speed equaled the forward swing speed
so on shots that needed power boy was my stroke jerky
i took a lesson a long time ago and this comment has stuck with me
"have i told you yet your backswing was TOO SLOW?"
it got me to separate the speed/tempo of the backswing with the forward swing
  
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01-16-2019, 05:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyInCali View Post
I have changed.
Pause before the last stroke, slow pull, a slight pause then shoot.

It took hundreds of straight in shots.
Pulling offline is a no-no as well. You can't correct an offline pull by getting back in line with the last forward stroke.
me too joey
i agree with your post
the question for me has been whether to increase the time of the "short" pause
i will say when the cue ball is frozen on the rail or other difficult shots my pause becomes more pronounced
  
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  (#23)
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01-16-2019, 05:31 AM

Focusing on a smooth backstroke rather than a particularly slow backstroke helps slow down the backstroke efficiently.


-- Matt Sherman

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Tossing in an idea
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Tossing in an idea - 01-16-2019, 12:19 PM

I use the toss dynamic as an analogy to get a sense of the body’s innate natural tendency, and timing. Take something like a remote control in hand. Pick a target on a couch or chair a few feet away. The idea is to make a precise toss to an exact target. A right handed description of what I do is as follows. My body is square to target more directly opposite the right side. My head moves in line with where the right arm would naturally hang and swing. With the remote in hand the arm bends at the elbow and the hand extends somewhat lining up the arm. The elbow and arm are returned to the side with the upper arm now beside the body. A slight lean in on the target line as part of readying is accompanied by a mini toss rehearsal hefting of the remote, feeling its weight and testing the aim line. The hand is loose and after a few up down motions closing the elbow slightly I go into the toss motion. The left foot wants to advance slightly as the arm prepares to toss. What’s interesting now is how the whole arm not the forearm and wrist go into the motion. The forearm is lowered as the upper arm and elbow move slowly pull back creating an open angle at the elbow, they all move in a coordinated unhurried motion. The hand has been passive. The arm slows and starts to come forward. The whole arm leads holding the elbow angle initially. The elbow starts to close moving the forearm faster than the overall arm providing a timing with the hand holding the remote increasing in speed. Once the hand arc and speed are sensed to match the one imagined for the toss, the remote is simply released on that desired path.

I’ve noticed roughly the same type of process in many top players when they use a whole arm stroke often noted by observers as an elbow drop. There is far more going on with these players. They are using a lot of elements used in that toss dynamic seen in those cueing actions. Many of these players use a "walled" backswing. During setup once the cue is aligned on the aim line the player moves the upper chest to the cue. That creates a "wall" with the chest at one end and the vee of an open bridge at the other. When pulled back to deliver the cue, the cue should have no choice but to be aligned at the back of the backswing. When the slower paced delivery of a whole arm stroke is wanted some slight modifications are needed prior to the backstroke. If the tip is to be delivered level through impact the hand can’t drop the cue below the bridge before contact. Del Hill the coach who developed Ronnie O’Sullivan as a teenager debunks the idea of a level cue prior to contact. Clearance of the rail and other factors mean the cue plane at address and prior to contact will have an element of a downplane. The tip travel needs to follow a path similar to a plane landing, coasting in to a flat or near flat plane through impact. There is an added benefit to the butt being elevated when using a whole arm stroke, vertical space for the arm to rotate down into. Where the toss elbow angle didn’t close much initially during the forward swing of the arm, the same is true here. The arm starts by a rotation of the arm in the socket with the elbow hinge not leading the way. The elbow angle remains open and only starts to close naturally as it judges the momentum impact at a subconscious level. The initial minimal drop and delayed elbow hinging lets the hand holding the cue glide into the desired plane/contact point. The vertical space moves the hand through lowering the grip hand enough to avoid jamming the thumb into the rib cage. The cue travels unhindered without a body bump. Of course players who don’t use a walled stroke and have a more upright stance already have a starting point with a lowered upper arm in place and space through which the cue can travel unhindered as well. Their additional challenge is a less guaranteed online position at the back of the stroke. Walled strikers tend to use longer backswings, whereas the rest often restrain or shorten the backstroke in an attempt to hold the shot line before bringing the cue forward. Freezing the upper arm is often part of that method.

That’s my take on the topic posed here. Hope it adds something to the conversation.

Last edited by Imac007; 03-22-2019 at 01:03 AM.
  
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01-16-2019, 12:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyInCali View Post
If you pull offline, you should stop and reset.
Max Eberle said that. And it takes discipline to do that .
Does that mean to get up and start the routine over? Thanks
  
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01-16-2019, 06:04 PM

imac007
thanks for your very detailed reply
  
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01-17-2019, 08:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mvp View Post
No SPF? I thought the pause is what you teach?
SPF.

Yes, the PAUSE is included in our teachings.
Why and how long are always disccused.

Every pool player in the World has to PAUSE. How and how long
is their personal taste. Depends upon how each player is wired.
That's why we title it PAUSE 1-2-3.

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01-17-2019, 08:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
Focusing on a smooth backstroke rather than a particularly slow backstroke helps slow down the backstroke efficiently.
Ain't that the truth.

A quote from Jerry Briesath:
"The smoother the backstroke,
the smoother the transition!"


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01-18-2019, 06:59 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imac007 View Post
I use the toss dynamic as an analogy to get a sense of the bodyís innate natural tendency, and timing. Take something like a remote control in hand. Pick a target on a couch or chair a few feet away. The idea is to make a precise toss to an exact target. A right handed description of what I do is as follows. My body is square to target more directly opposite the right side. My head moves in line with where the right arm would naturally hang and swing. With the remote in hand the arm bends at the elbow and the hand extends somewhat lining up the arm. The elbow and arm are returned to the side with the upper arm now beside the body. A slight lean in on the target line as part of readying is accompanied by a mini toss rehearsal hefting of the remote, feeling its weight and testing the aim line. The hand is loose and after a few up down motions closing the elbow slightly I go into the toss motion. The left foot wants to advance slightly as the arm prepares to toss. Whatís interesting now is how the whole arm not the forearm and wrist go into the motion. The forearm is lowered as the upper arm and elbow move slowly pull back creating an open angle at the elbow, they all move in a coordinated unhurried motion. The hand has been passive. The arm slows and starts to come forward. The whole arm leads holding the elbow angle initially. The elbow starts to close moving the forearm faster than the overall arm providing a timing with the hand holding the remote increasing in speed. Once the hand arc and speed are sensed to match the one imagined for the toss, the remote is simply released on that desired path.

Iíve noticed roughly the same type of process in many top players when they use a whole arm stroke often noted by observers as an elbow drop. There is far more going on with these players. They are using a lot of elements used in that toss dynamic seen in those cueing actions. Many of these players use a "walled" backswing. During setup once the cue is aligned on the aim line the player moves the upper chest to the cue. That creates a "wall" with the chest at one end and the vee of an open bridge at the other. When pulled back to deliver the cue, the cue should have no choice but to be aligned at the back of the backswing. When the slower paced delivery of a whole arm stroke is wanted some slight modifications are need prior to the backstroke. If the tip is to be delivered level through impact the hand canít drop the cue below the bridge before contact. Del Hill the coach who developed Ronnie OíSullivan as a teenager debunks the idea of a level cue prior to contact. Clearance of the rail and other factors mean the cue plane at address and prior to contact will have an element of a downplane. The tip travel needs to follow a path similar to a plane landing, coasting in to a flat or near flat plane through impact. There is an added benefit to the butt being elevated when using a whole arm stroke, vertical space for the arm to rotate down into. Where the toss elbow angle didnít close much initially during the forward swing of the arm, the same is true here. The arm starts by a rotation of the arm in the socket with the elbow hinge not leading the way. The elbow angle remains open and only starts to close naturally as it judges the momentum impact at a subconscious level. The initial minimal drop and delayed elbow hinging lets the hand holding the cue glide into the desired plane/contact point. The vertical space moves the hand through lowering the grip hand enough to avoid jamming the thumb into the rib cage. The cue travels unhindered without a body bump. Of course players who donít use a walled stroke and have a more upright stance already have a starting point with a lowered upper arm in place and space through which the cue can travel unhindered as well. Their additional challenge is a less guaranteed online position at the back of the stroke. Walled strikers tend to use longer backswings, whereas the rest often restrain or shorten the backstroke in an attempt to hold the shot line before bringing the cue forward. Freezing the upper arm is often part of that method.

Thatís my take on the topic posed here. Hope it adds something to the conversation.
Your wall concept is interesting, if you want to flesh it out more. For the rest, I hear "the elbow can drop after contact with the cb and the forward stroke is straight and downward, not just straight, on most strokes, due to the interfering rail."


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Close your Eyes
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Close your Eyes - 01-18-2019, 09:14 AM

If you really struggle with slowing down your backswing and transition here is something that I teach my students;

while going through your PSR, when you get to the point before your final back swing (you should be stopped transitioning your eyes to the object ball at this point) after you locate your target CLOSE your eyes and focus on a smooth back swing, pause and finish, while you are doing it. the first few times it feels a little weird but after 5-6 times of doing this you start to become in tune with what is going on. The more you do this the more in tune you become and the easier it is to do when your eyes are open.

Practice this for a 15 minutes a day for a week and you will see a big improvement in your stroke.

Mark Wilson teaches this as well. Part of his training program with the Linden Wood Lions is "NO LQQK 9 BAll" get down line up on your shot and before your final back swing close your eyes and fire away.


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