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Living the level stroke myth
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Living the level stroke myth - 01-18-2019, 03:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
Your wall concept is interesting, if you want to flesh it out more. For the rest, I hear "the elbow can drop after contact with the cb and the forward stroke is straight and downward, not just straight, on most strokes, due to the interfering rail."
Nearly every snooker coach on YouTube talks about the 4 contact points for the cue. The grip hand at one end and bridge hand at the other. The chin and chest block movement up and sideways as the other 2 points. My version is what I dubbed "walled" because in pool I often don’t bring my chin right down on the cue. That said I still adhere to shot line dominance in the stance. The shot line is determined while standing but the head must be there to see it. The head and my right foot move forward as I step on the line. Since I will eventually move my chest to the cue. I point my foot down the line because my cue ends up on the side of my chest. I cue beside my body as a result. I align the cue, bridge and cueing arm, then bring that alignment to the shot line. The super imposing of the cue onto the line involves moving my left foot forward so my aligned cue can go move over into the shot. Bridge placement with the cue on line is followed by the upper body shifting down and towards the cue.

The short form is
Head to line
Foot to line
Cue to line
Chest to cue

As to the "the elbow can drop after contact" comment you tried to slip in, as a short version of my narrative. Nice try. When the longer backswing arcs from a higher plane by holding the elbow angle initially and rotating from the shoulder socket slightly before the natural closing, the elbow starts down first. The amount is only slight and often attributed to muscle contraction at the hinge. Del Hill talks about 2 engines driving the cue. The upper arm coming down also starts the forward movement of the cue. The plane needs to lower somehow in order to achieve as level a cue travel as possible. A pendulum stroke will simply end up jammed into the rib cage. These elite players are not dropping the upper arm after contact to clear the chest, there is simply not enough time. I’ve seen Ronnie O’Sullivan bring the entire arm down and through on a delicate shot needing precise pace to get a limited amount of follow. The large muscles of the arm can move slow yet positively through contact, not quitting on the shot. Controlled pace covering a range of shots from soft through power are the result. The shoulder itself is never tightened in these shots. The only time I see the shoulder tightening using a whole arm stroke is when the player is wanting to use as much body mass as possible into a power break. I rarely use more than 85% velocity when getting arm mass into even power shots. Controlled mass behind a squarely impacted ball generates maximum momentum for that speed. Try the remote control toss test I referenced earlier, without using the whole arm, just the hand and forearm. Even at short distances timing is better with the whole arm involved. Our body intuitively knows. Don’t try too hard. Simply holding the elbow angle open momentarily enables the arm to emulate the toss dynamic. Have a clear picture of the cue coming through the ball at an optimal angle and your body will make it happen.

BTW it’s nice to know that someone at least reads long posts like these. Thanks.

Everything is situational. I only teach this to more advanced intermediate players and higher.

Last edited by Imac007; 03-15-2019 at 04:48 PM.
  
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01-18-2019, 06:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imac007 View Post
Nearly every snooker coach on YouTube talks about the 4 contact points for the cue. The grip hand at one end and bridge hand at the other. The chin and chest block movement up and sideways as the other 2 points. My version is what I dubbed "walled" because in pool I often donít bring my chin right down on the cue. That said I still adhere to shot line dominance in the stance. The shot line is determined while standing but the head must be there to see it. The head and my right foot move forward as I step on the line. Since I will eventually move my chest to the cue. I point my foot down the line because my cue ends up on the side of my chest. I cue beside my body as a result. I align the cue, bridge and cueing arm, then bring that alignment to the shot line. The super imposing of the cue onto the line involves moving my left foot forward so my aligned cue can go move over into the shot. Bridge placement with the cue on line is followed by the upper body shifting down and towards the cue.

The short form is
Head to line
Foot to line
Cue to line
Chest to cue

As to the "the elbow can drop after contact" comment you tried to slip in, as a short version of my narrative. Nice try. When the longer backswing arcs from a higher plane by holding the elbow angle initially and rotating from the shoulder socket slightly before the natural closing, the elbow starts down first. The amount is only slight and often attributed to muscle contraction at the hinge. Del Hill talks about 2 engines driving the cue. The upper arm coming down also starts the forward movement of the cue. The plane needs to lower somehow in order to achieve as level a cue travel as possible. A pendulum stroke will simply end up jammed into the rig cage. These elite players are not dropping the upper arm after contact to clear the chest, there is simply not enough time. Iíve seen Ronnie OíSullivan bring the entire arm down and through on a delicate shot needing precise pace to get a limited amount of follow. The large muscles of the arm can move slow yet positively through contact, not quitting on the shot. Controlled pace covering a range of shots from soft through power are the result. The shoulder itself is never tightened in these shots. The only time I see the shoulder tightening using a whole arm stroke is when the player is wanting to use as much body mass as possible into a power break. I rarely use more than 85% velocity when getting arm mass into even power shots. Controlled mass behind a squarely impacted ball generates maximum momentum for that speed. Try the remote control toss test I referenced earlier, without using the whole arm, just the hand and forearm. Even at short distances timing is better with the whole arm involved. Our body intuitively knows. Donít try too hard. Simply holding the elbow angle open momentarily enables the arm to emulate the toss dynamic. Have a clear picture of the cue coming through the ball at an optimal angle and your body will make it happen.

BTW itís nice to know that someone at least reads long posts like these. Thanks.

Everything is situational. I only teach this to more advanced intermediate players and higher.
your posts are terrific.....
a request is to put alittle more spacing between lines to make them easier to read
pretty please
  
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01-19-2019, 04:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbb View Post
your posts are terrific.....
a request is to put alittle more spacing between lines to make them easier to read
pretty please
bbb... Expand the page

.


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01-20-2019, 02:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imac007 View Post
I use the toss dynamic as an analogy to get a sense of the bodyís innate natural tendency, and timing. Take something like a remote control in

hand. Pick a target on a couch or chair a few feet away. The idea is to make a precise toss to an exact target. A right handed description of what I do is as follows. My body is

square to target more directly opposite the right side. My head moves in line with where the right arm would naturally hang and swing. With the remote in hand the arm bends at

the elbow and the hand extends somewhat lining up the arm. The elbow and arm are returned to the side with the upper arm now beside the body. A slight lean in on the

target line as part of readying is accompanied by a mini toss rehearsal hefting of the remote, feeling its weight and testing the aim line. The hand is loose and after a few up

down motions closing the elbow slightly I go into the toss motion. The left foot wants to advance slightly as the arm prepares to toss. Whatís interesting now is how the whole

arm not the forearm and wrist go into the motion. The forearm is lowered as the upper arm and elbow move slowly pull back creating an open angle at the elbow, they all move

in a coordinated unhurried motion. The hand has been passive. The arm slows and starts to come forward. The whole arm leads holding the elbow angle initially. The elbow

starts to close moving the forearm faster than the overall arm providing a timing with the hand holding the remote increasing in speed. Once the hand arc and speed are sensed

to match the one imagined for the toss, the remote is simply released on that desired path.

Iíve noticed roughly the same type of process in many top players when they use a whole arm stroke often noted by observers as an elbow drop. There is far more going on with

these players. They are using a lot of elements used in that toss dynamic seen in those cueing actions. Many of these players use a "walled" backswing. During setup once the

cue is aligned on the aim line the player moves the upper chest to the cue. That creates a "wall" with the chest at one end and the vee of an open bridge at the other. When

pulled back to deliver the cue, the cue should have no choice but to be aligned at the back of the backswing. When the slower paced delivery of a whole arm stroke is wanted

some slight modifications are need prior to the backstroke. If the tip is to be delivered level through impact the hand canít drop the cue below the bridge before contact. Del

Hill the coach who developed Ronnie OíSullivan as a teenager debunks the idea of a level cue prior to contact. Clearance of the rail and other factors mean the cue plane at

address and prior to contact will have an element of a downplane. The tip travel needs to follow a path similar to a plane landing, coasting in to a flat or near flat plane through

impact. There is an added benefit to the butt being elevated when using a whole arm stroke, vertical space for the arm to rotate down into. Where the toss elbow angle didnít

close much initially during the forward swing of the arm, the same is true here. The arm starts by a rotation of the arm in the socket with the elbow hinge not leading the way.

The elbow angle remains open and only starts to close naturally as it judges the momentum impact at a subconscious level. The initial minimal drop and delayed elbow

hinging lets the hand holding the cue glide into the desired plane/contact point. The vertical space moves the hand through lowering the grip hand enough to avoid jamming

the thumb into the rib cage. The cue travels unhindered without a body bump. Of course players who donít use a walled stroke and have a more upright stance already have a

starting point with a lowered upper arm in place and space through which the cue can travel unhindered as well. Their additional challenge is a less guaranteed online position

at the back of the stroke. Walled strikers tend to use longer backswings, whereas the rest often restrain or shorten the backstroke in an attempt to hold the shot line before bringing the cue forward. Freezing the upper arm is often part of that method.

Thatís my take on the topic posed here. Hope it adds something to the conversation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imac007 View Post
Nearly every snooker coach on YouTube talks about the 4 contact points for the cue. The grip hand at one end and bridge hand at the other. The

chin and chest block movement up and sideways as the other 2 points. My version is what I dubbed "walled" because in pool I often donít bring my chin right down on the cue.

That said I still adhere to shot line dominance in the stance. The shot line is determined while standing but the head must be there to see it. The head and my right foot move

forward as I step on the line. Since I will eventually move my chest to the cue. I point my foot down the line because my cue ends up on the side of my chest. I cue beside my

body as a result. I align the cue, bridge and cueing arm, then bring that alignment to the shot line. The super imposing of the cue onto the line involves moving my left foot

forward so my aligned cue can go move over into the shot. Bridge placement with the cue on line is followed by the upper body shifting down and towards the cue.

The short form is
Head to line
Foot to line
Cue to line
Chest to cue

As to the "the elbow can drop after contact" comment you tried to slip in, as a short version of my narrative. Nice try. When the longer backswing arcs from a higher plane

by holding the elbow angle initially and rotating from the shoulder socket slightly before the natural closing, the elbow starts down first. The amount is only slight and often

attributed to muscle contraction at the hinge. Del Hill talks about 2 engines driving the cue. The upper arm coming down also starts the forward movement of the cue. The

plane needs to lower somehow in order to achieve as level a cue travel as possible. A pendulum stroke will simply end up jammed into the rig cage. These elite players are not

dropping the upper arm after contact to clear the chest, there is simply not enough time. Iíve seen Ronnie OíSullivan bring the entire arm down and through on a delicate shot

needing precise pace to get a limited amount of follow. The large muscles of the arm can move slow yet positively through contact, not quitting on the shot. Controlled pace

covering a range of shots from soft through power are the result. The shoulder itself is never tightened in these shots. The only time I see the shoulder tightening using a whole

arm stroke is when the player is wanting to use as much body mass as possible into a power break. I rarely use more than 85% velocity when getting arm mass into even

power shots. Controlled mass behind a squarely impacted ball generates maximum momentum for that speed. Try the remote control toss test I referenced earlier, without

using the whole arm, just the hand and forearm. Even at short distances timing is better with the whole arm involved. Our body intuitively knows. Donít try too hard. Simply

holding the elbow angle open momentarily enables the arm to emulate the toss dynamic. Have a clear picture of the cue coming through the ball at an optimal angle and your body will make it happen.

BTW itís nice to know that someone at least reads long posts like these. Thanks.

Everything is situational. I only teach this to more advanced intermediate players and higher.
Imac007... Those 2 posts are very interesting


GAMES... http://sites.google.com/site/poolandbilliard

Recognize a 1/2 ball 30 degree cut, and the 1/8 ball angles.
Paralysis by aiming analysis happens by thinking too much.

To play at top speed.. You must own the stop shot line.
  
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01-21-2019, 12:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by goettlicher View Post
Ain't that the truth.

A quote from Jerry Briesath:
"The smoother the backstroke,
the smoother the transition!"


randyg
That s what is all about--
Most guys are discussing about the *time* they re pausing at the end of the stroke. It s not about to paus like Buddy, Niels, Kevin B. or who ever has this extremly Extended pause at the end of the back stroke--

It is just about a smooth Transition from back to Forward Motion- that s it!

To go much deeper into the things which can help here- or what also has to be detected or developed for each indivdual Person hast not really something to do with the sentence we are talking about:

"to slow down your backswing" is a General thumb-rule or advice- or however you may call it. There are many things which will have an effect for indivdual Players- the how Long and what to do during this "last pause" is another Topic.

fact is, that s all about this smooth Transition from back to Forward Motion.
period. all other things are a completly different Topic.


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01-21-2019, 06:06 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratta View Post
That s what is all about--
Most guys are discussing about the *time* they re pausing at the end of the stroke. It s not about to paus like Buddy, Niels, Kevin B. or who ever has this extremly Extended pause at the end of the back stroke--

It is just about a smooth Transition from back to Forward Motion- that s it!

To go much deeper into the things which can help here- or what also has to be detected or developed for each indivdual Person hast not really something to do with the sentence we are talking about:

"to slow down your backswing" is a General thumb-rule or advice- or however you may call it. There are many things which will have an effect for indivdual Players- the how Long and what to do during this "last pause" is another Topic.

fact is, that s all about this smooth Transition from back to Forward Motion.
period. all other things are a completly different Topic.
ingo
thanks for the reply
hope all is well
  
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01-21-2019, 08:27 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imac007 View Post
Nearly every snooker coach on YouTube talks about the 4 contact points for the cue. The grip hand at one end and bridge hand at the other. The chin and chest block movement up and sideways as the other 2 points. My version is what I dubbed "walled" because in pool I often don’t bring my chin right down on the cue. That said I still adhere to shot line dominance in the stance. The shot line is determined while standing but the head must be there to see it. The head and my right foot move forward as I step on the line. Since I will eventually move my chest to the cue. I point my foot down the line because my cue ends up on the side of my chest. I cue beside my body as a result. I align the cue, bridge and cueing arm, then bring that alignment to the shot line. The super imposing of the cue onto the line involves moving my left foot forward so my aligned cue can go move over into the shot. Bridge placement with the cue on line is followed by the upper body shifting down and towards the cue.

The short form is
Head to line
Foot to line
Cue to line
Chest to cue

As to the "the elbow can drop after contact" comment you tried to slip in, as a short version of my narrative. Nice try. When the longer backswing arcs from a higher plane by holding the elbow angle initially and rotating from the shoulder socket slightly before the natural closing, the elbow starts down first. The amount is only slight and often attributed to muscle contraction at the hinge. Del Hill talks about 2 engines driving the cue. The upper arm coming down also starts the forward movement of the cue. The plane needs to lower somehow in order to achieve as level a cue travel as possible. A pendulum stroke will simply end up jammed into the rig cage. These elite players are not dropping the upper arm after contact to clear the chest, there is simply not enough time. I’ve seen Ronnie O’Sullivan bring the entire arm down and through on a delicate shot needing precise pace to get a limited amount of follow. The large muscles of the arm can move slow yet positively through contact, not quitting on the shot. Controlled pace covering a range of shots from soft through power are the result. The shoulder itself is never tightened in these shots. The only time I see the shoulder tightening using a whole arm stroke is when the player is wanting to use as much body mass as possible into a power break. I rarely use more than 85% velocity when getting arm mass into even power shots. Controlled mass behind a squarely impacted ball generates maximum momentum for that speed. Try the remote control toss test I referenced earlier, without using the whole arm, just the hand and forearm. Even at short distances timing is better with the whole arm involved. Our body intuitively knows. Don’t try too hard. Simply holding the elbow angle open momentarily enables the arm to emulate the toss dynamic. Have a clear picture of the cue coming through the ball at an optimal angle and your body will make it happen.

BTW it’s nice to know that someone at least reads long posts like these. Thanks.

Everything is situational. I only teach this to more advanced intermediate players and higher.

It's not the length of the post that's the problem for me, at least. It's the lack of paragraphs. When I see something this long that's continuous without breaks to allow the reader to take a breath, I pass it by, regardless of how good the content may be. If you want people to read what you write, you should make an effort to be considerate of the reader.

Last edited by FranCrimi; 01-21-2019 at 08:39 AM.
  
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01-21-2019, 10:29 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratta View Post
...pausing at the end of the stroke.

...

It is just about a smooth Transition from back to Forward Motion- that s it!
I disagree. The pause (for however long) is useful for gathering focus on the stroke, and for separating it from the back stroke.

pj
chgo
  
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01-21-2019, 03:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I disagree. The pause (for however long) is useful for gathering focus on the stroke, and for separating it from the back stroke.

pj
chgo
Well yes, but not always. The more natural players, with hand-eye coordination that is really in sync,are already shifting their eyes to the ob before the end of the backstroke. In those cases, a smooth transition is what works best for them. There isn't a need for the extra time for a distinct pause --- at least the kind I think you're referring to that allows the player time to negate the imperfections of bad timing of the back stroke and to take the time to focus on the ob.
  
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4 point contact cueing
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4 point contact cueing - 01-21-2019, 04:10 PM

Straight cueing method

https://youtu.be/9IhVTwEcvGw

https://youtu.be/SmetHI94WqQ

https://youtu.be/93xsb5zTaYs

https://youtu.be/HVwubi1-tWw

https://youtu.be/N4FNNRxM1Dc

Last edited by Imac007; 01-21-2019 at 09:44 PM. Reason: Missing links added
  
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01-21-2019, 06:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imac007 View Post
your last vid
i wish i could do this...look at the first shot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVwu...ature=youtu.be
  
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01-21-2019, 08:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
Well yes, but not always. The more natural players, with hand-eye coordination that is really in sync,are already shifting their eyes to the ob before the end of the backstroke. In those cases, a smooth transition is what works best for them. There isn't a need for the extra time for a distinct pause --- at least the kind I think you're referring to that allows the player time to negate the imperfections of bad timing of the back stroke and to take the time to focus on the ob.
I'm sure a deliberate pause is a buzzkill for more natural players. For me it's more than just resetting the physical stroke and focusing on the OB - it's a moment to fully absorb myself in my visualization of the shot and disconnect from everything unrelated to execution of it.

pj
chgo
  
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01-22-2019, 02:30 AM

Like Jerry Briesath, Randyg and myself contend...ALL PLAYERS PAUSE. The difference is that the better players pause on purpose. How, how long, when, where and why are the variables to deal with. SPF just happens to be one of the easiest ways to learn that smooth transition.

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01-22-2019, 03:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Lee View Post
Like Jerry Briesath, Randyg and myself contend...ALL PLAYERS PAUSE. The difference is that the better players pause on purpose. How, how long, when, where and why are the variables to deal with. SPF just happens to be one of the easiest way to learn that smooth transition.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
scott are you saying the pros have forced themselves to to have a rhythm which has a forced ie "on purpose" pause and is not their natural rhythm ?
  
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01-22-2019, 11:47 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SFC9ball View Post
If you really struggle with slowing down your backswing and transition here is something that I teach my students;

while going through your PSR, when you get to the point before your final back swing (you should be stopped transitioning your eyes to the object ball at this point) after you locate your target CLOSE your eyes and focus on a smooth back swing, pause and finish, while you are doing it. the first few times it feels a little weird but after 5-6 times of doing this you start to become in tune with what is going on. The more you do this the more in tune you become and the easier it is to do when your eyes are open.

Practice this for a 15 minutes a day for a week and you will see a big improvement in your stroke.

Mark Wilson teaches this as well. Part of his training program with the Linden Wood Lions is "NO LQQK 9 BAll" get down line up on your shot and before your final back swing close your eyes and fire away.
Tried this. Very interesting how it shifts focus to awareness of the stroke while not usually affecting the shot success by much. Enjoyed keeping my eyes closed until I heard the ball fall (or slam) into the pocket.
  
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