Curtain Shots Using Feel/Judgment
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Curtain Shots Using Feel/Judgment - 06-26-2019, 08:52 AM

A couple of Stan Shuffett's curtain shot videos are pretty impressive. If you haven't seen them, go to YouTube and search "Stan Shuffett curtain CTE". Recently another AZBer posted a curtain video and also referenced Stan's curtain videos. I replied with a video of similar shots, specifically showing how using the same fractional aim for each shot can actually work over a small span of slightly different shot angles, as long as the span fits within the width of the targeted pocket. I believe this is the same reason why the same CTE perception and pivot can work for a similar span of different shot angles.

Anyhow, this got me wondering how well someone could do using ghostball or contact points, or whatever judgement-type method, from behind the curtain. Not once do I make every shot, but I'm sure any player with pro caliber experience and skill could do it quite consistently. Here are my attempts....(I cut the talking points from the beginning and end of the 2nd and 3rd vids to shorten them up)

Attempt #1

Attempt #2

Attempt #3

I think this experiment shows the power of memory and the brain's ability to take minimal data from the eyes and match it up to something recognizable based on experience. This subconscious process is happening on every shot, with or without a curtain, making it possible to fine tune shots without consciously realizing it. I think when we find ourselves in "The Zone" we are not disturbing this process with conscious overanalyzing. We're just letting it happen.


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06-26-2019, 09:53 AM

I don't think anyone is arguing you can't make these curtain shots with a system other than CTE, but you definitely missed a lot more than the CTE guys do in these curtain videos.


Yes, maybe they practice them more. And playing devil's advocate, maybe they record multiple takes until they get one without any misses.

But those 2 reasons aside, what other reasons can you think of that explains them having a higher make percentage?
  
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06-26-2019, 09:55 AM

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Originally Posted by BeiberLvr View Post
I don't think anyone is arguing you can't make these curtain shots with a system other than CTE, but you definitely missed a lot more than the CTE guys do in these curtain videos.


Yes, maybe they practice them more. And playing devil's advocate, maybe they record multiple takes until they get one without any misses.

But those 2 reasons aside, what other reasons can you think of that explains them having a higher make percentage?
Who are "the CTE guys"?

pj <- might have something to do with it
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06-26-2019, 10:13 AM

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Originally Posted by BC21 View Post
A couple of Stan Shuffett's curtain shot videos are pretty impressive. If you haven't seen them, go to YouTube and search "Stan Shuffett curtain CTE". Recently another AZBer posted a curtain video and also referenced Stan's curtain videos. I replied with a video of similar shots, specifically showing how using the same fractional aim for each shot can actually work over a small span of slightly different shot angles, as long as the span fits within the width of the targeted pocket. I believe this is the same reason why the same CTE perception and pivot can work for a similar span of different shot angles.

Anyhow, this got me wondering how well someone could do using ghostball or contact points, or whatever judgement-type method, from behind the curtain. Not once do I make every shot, but I'm sure any player with pro caliber experience and skill could do it quite consistently. Here are my attempts....(I cut the talking points from the beginning and end of the 2nd and 3rd vids to shorten them up)

Attempt #1

Attempt #2

Attempt #3

I think this experiment shows the power of memory and the brain's ability to take minimal data from the eyes and match it up to something recognizable based on experience. This subconscious process is happening on every shot, with or without a curtain, making it possible to fine tune shots without consciously realizing it. I think when we find ourselves in "The Zone" we are not disturbing this process with conscious overanalyzing. We're just letting it happen.
Nice work, Stick. GREAT shooting. Here's why:you were shooting for POSITION on the next shot. A few more "run-throughs" and the rattlers that were there would be gone...and you will still have POSITION. Sub-title these videos as "The Elephant in The Room" Curtain Shots.

Dinosaurs had an advanced capacity for analyzing spatial relations. As humans, we have computers between our ears. Mix a little experience with a little talent and some guys could probably make long shots in the dark.

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06-26-2019, 10:33 AM

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Originally Posted by Boxcar View Post
Mix a little experience with a little talent and some guys could probably make long shots in the dark.
Correct. The curtain gimmick only demonstrates that the player has played enough to become familiar with a pool table. The rails/pockets that you can see give enough info to know where the hidden pockets are (it is a 2:1 table with right angle corners, after all ).

I think anybody with enough experience can (and does in the normal course of playing) shoot many shots with the pocket out of sight.

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06-26-2019, 11:20 AM

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Originally Posted by BeiberLvr View Post
I don't think anyone is arguing you can't make these curtain shots with a system other than CTE, but you definitely missed a lot more than the CTE guys do in these curtain videos.


Yes, maybe they practice them more. And playing devil's advocate, maybe they record multiple takes until they get one without any misses.

But those 2 reasons aside, what other reasons can you think of that explains them having a higher make percentage?
Keep in mind that these are all 100% different angled shots, not predetermined setup shots or shots of similar angles where different aim lines are needed. When you setup similar shots where the span of shot angles is within 3 degrees or so, this curtain bit is much easier because the same aim can be used to make each ball, whether you use cte or some other aiming method.

CTE perceptions get you within about 10 to 15 degrees of the actual shot line, then the offset pivot puts you a few degrees closer, sometimes right on it, other times a a couple of degrees left or right. But since the pocket is twice as wide as the ob, it's close enough to find the pocket. If not, you must try the shot again using a thinner or thicker perception, or using a shorter or longer bridge length. Pro1 is different because as you sweep toward the shot line, instead of using a strict pivot, you can fine tune it as you sweep, sometimes sweeping a little more or a little less than a true half tip pivot, simply following what your eyes are seeing, along with your experience using the system. And that's not a knock or criticism to CTE, it's just the reality of the geometry that occurs once the perception is achieved. That portion of the math/geometry is indisputable because it's very easy to take a shot that just occured and work backwards to determine the angles. Bridge length, shot angle, and pivot angle can each be determined, and from here the actual perception angle (the prepivot fixed cb) can be calculated.


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06-26-2019, 11:24 AM

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Originally Posted by Boxcar View Post
Nice work, Stick. GREAT shooting. Here's why:you were shooting for POSITION on the next shot. A few more "run-throughs" and the rattlers that were there would be gone...and you will still have POSITION. Sub-title these videos as "The Elephant in The Room" Curtain Shots.

Dinosaurs had an advanced capacity for analyzing spatial relations. As humans, we have computers between our ears. Mix a little experience with a little talent and some guys could probably make long shots in the dark.

BOXCAR
I agree 100%. There is a difference in difficulty between doing setup shots using a system, ANY system, and simply shooting balls from wherever the the cb stops, based on what looks right via rote.


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06-26-2019, 04:55 PM

The "best" system for curtain play would probably be Joe Tuckers aiming by the numbers. It teaches how to find the contact point from Diamond postions on the table. Deadly effective. And you can make shots from ANY angle and distance this way without any real need to see the target pocket. No need to set up a small selection of angles. In addition anyone With a straight stroke and just a minimum of contact point training can absolutely NAIL this test from the get go. No "months of training" needed. The contact Points are right there to be seen and you can use whatever alignment Method you favour. There are the Points, now go hit them, WHAM!

I'm surprised nobody has actually made a video With aiming by the numbers, but I'm also kind of glad. Every curtain video made legitimizes this idiotic concept and validates it as a true test of aiming systems, which it isn't and never was. I don't know Joe Tucker, but I have a feeling he'd laugh at this curtain nonsense. He strikes me as a practical, Down to Earth fellow. Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

The whole curtain thing is a stupid gimmick that IMO has ZERO value for any practical purpose, only for "showing off" the supposed "superiority" of CTE aiming. When in reality what is being showed off is years of experience by Pros and semi pros in recognizing angles.

That is one of the Things I find so annoying about this curtain fad. The impression is being left that any schmuck off the street can do these curtain shots right away With CTE, when in reality it will take months for them to make even a high percentage of straight forward shots, UNLESS they're allready pros With years behind them...

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06-26-2019, 08:46 PM

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Originally Posted by BeiberLvr View Post
I don't think anyone is arguing you can't make these curtain shots with a system other than CTE, but you definitely missed a lot more than the CTE guys do in these curtain videos.


Yes, maybe they practice them more. And playing devil's advocate, maybe they record multiple takes until they get one without any misses.

But those 2 reasons aside, what other reasons can you think of that explains them having a higher make percentage?
Reference this: https://youtu.be/-1v49xzCKc4

I just revisited Stan's curtain video (link above) where he shoots 15 long shots. At first it seems pretty remarkable, but if you pay attention you'll notice he doesn't shoot 15 completely different shots. He sets the exact same 7 shots up on each side of the table, mirror images. This can't be a coincidence. There is only one shot that he shoots in the right corner pocket that he doesn't setup for the left corner pocket. He is only using a total of about 4 shot angles.

I set them up exactly as he did for each shot. The first 2 shots are 1/2 ball hits (30), one to the left and one to the right. The next 2 are 5/8 hits (22), left and right. Then he shoots a left cut down the rail, which is another 1/2 ball hit. He does this again but on the other side of the table, cutting the ball to the right. He shoots a couple of shots twice, separated by a few shots so it isn't quite that noticeable. The shots where the cb and ob are each a diamond from the side rail are 3/4 ball shots (14), which he sets up on each side of the table. And also each side gets a shot where the balls are half a diamond off the side rails. These are 7/8 shots (7).

It can't be coincidental. He shoots 15 balls but they are setup in a manner that utilizes about 4 cut angles. I'm not as impressed as I was before I discovered all this. I mean, it was like a magic trick, a great aiming mystery. Not so much anymore. Fact is, there are certain shots where CTE works great, and the shots in this video, as well as similar curtain videos, are those types of shots. I can actually use CTE to make these shots, so I know he's doing it. It's not fake...the perceptions and pivots can be used to pocket all of these shots, so the curtain bit does prove that at least. It's shots that fall outside of these particular angles that I find not so easy to pocket using the same steps as instructed. Could be lack of practice on my end, or a missing link or detail. Regardless, this video sticks to using a limited number of angles, which isn't too difficult.


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06-27-2019, 04:39 AM

Curtain shots fall into the catergory of trick shots, nothing more. Those shots prove nothing.

Last time I was at the table, there was no curtain. Whenever I play someone, there is no curtain.

What I see a lot of is players that practice great, but suck in competition.......where it all matters.

Curtain shots or any sighting method will not build consistency and consistency is the heart of pool.

Consistency takes hitting a lot of balls. HAMB is about building consistency, not learning to aim.

Consistency is about putting the balls where you want......all the time. Consistency means there are no surprises about where the balls go.

Work on being consistent, forget the trick shots.
  
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06-27-2019, 05:21 AM

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Originally Posted by duckie View Post
Curtain shots fall into the catergory of trick shots, nothing more. Those shots prove nothing.

Last time I was at the table, there was no curtain. Whenever I play someone, there is no curtain.

What I see a lot of is players that practice great, but suck in competition.......where it all matters.

Curtain shots or any sighting method will not build consistency and consistency is the heart of pool.

Consistency takes hitting a lot of balls. HAMB is about building consistency, not learning to aim.

Consistency is about putting the balls where you want......all the time. Consistency means there are no surprises about where the balls go.

Work on being consistent, forget the trick shots.
Excellent post. Being able to hit curtain shots isn't so much proving an aiming method as it is proving the brain's incredible ability to piece together a shot picture based on limited visual input. The more you've played the more consistently your brain works as far as shot recognition, just knowing the shots when you see them.
Even with some missing visual data, the mind searches for the rest of the picture, recreating something that has been seen before, countless times, and you immediately know exactly where the cb needs to be and how to put it there.


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