The True Record Hi Run

LWW

MEMGO5
Silver Member
Did I mention that was one handed? He's kind of the Chuck Norris of pool, he's the best you've ever seen Bus, the best there is

I think he said it was 110 degrees in the room with two feet of snow on the floor also.
 

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
For the record....

Originally posted by Hungerstrike:
Mosconi's run of 589 at age 66 or so in '79. 08-26-2011, 02:14 PM

" I just spoke with Charles Ursitti. He is ok right now riding out the hurricaine in Florida. I asked him about the run he witnessed which I knew to be near 600. The details are that it was done in the practice room of a major Las Vegas tournament in 1979. Charlie says that all the tournament pros came in to watch portions of the run at one point or another. Pete Margo came in and watched some.... then asked Charlie what the score is up to and Charlie said over 20 racks. He quotes Margo as saying that "if there was a 5000 point match right now, I'd bet on Willie." On the 589th ball, which was set up as a perfect break shot, Charlie told Willie that the next rack would put him over 600, but just as he was saying it, Willie fired in the 589th ball before the balls were racked. It was over because Willie was hungry and tired. I know Charles Ursitti very, very well and in doing research for him he has made me check and recheck facts. The overwhelming majority of his data (as seen on his website on the history of the game's records) has multiple sources. He is a stickler for facts. He has also been referee for many big matches. I have ZERO doubt in my mind as to the validity of this story. No doubt. This feat was accomplished on a standard 4.5'x9' Brunswick Gold Crown.... "

Stories like this where a player had a run going of this magnitude and then quit before missing (and there are several with several different players) show that the player in question just didn't care about a record and it just wasn't that important to them. If one were to believe these stories, it would also be reasonable to assume that there are other players who also would not care about it all that much, or that having such a record may not be as important to all top players as many paint it out to be. I'm not saying I believe these stories or don't, only that it would be somewhat inconsistent to believe that every player alive wants desperately to hold the high run record and would do it if they could, and then also believe these stories where someone had it or was close to it and then quit before they ever missed.

I do realize some will say that the players in question may not have thought the run would have been "official" anyway so why bother, but if it were that important they still wouldn't have quit without having missed just to have the bragging rights whether it could be made "official" or not. And they would also hope that they could convince enough people or prove it well enough for it to become "official" (and after all there were no official guidelines for what would make something "official", it was all just a matter of if you could convince enough people that it became commonly accepted as having happened, so the motivation to continue the run would still be there if the record was actually important to them). Just a thought.
 

Mr. Bond

Orbis Non Sufficit
Gold Member
Silver Member
Player X: " I could run 589 any time, I just don't feel like messing with it.."

Mr. Bond: " yeah, right "

Player X: " no, really...I could..."

Mr. Bond: " ok, then why don't you? "

Player X: " because beating the record of possibly the world's greatest pocket billiard player doesn't mean much ..."

Mr. Bond: " so you have no desire to beat, or be, the world's greatest at something?"

Player X: "...well I didn't say THAT..."

Mr. Bond: " then why don't you do it? "

Player X: " ...because I don't feel like it."

Mr. Bond: " you do realize that if you don't prove it, then theres no point in saying that you could, right? "

Player X: " but I could.."

Mr. Bond: " I could too..."

Player X: " no you couldn't..."

Mr. Bond: " I could anytime ..."

Player X: " then why don't you ..."

Mr. Bond: " I can't really do it, I'm just making a point here...as soon as I said I could, you didn't believe me. "

Player X: " why should I ? "

Mr. Bond " point made ..."

Player X: " wait, what? "

Mr. bond: " saying that you could beat it means that the task holds enough weight for you to make that claim...in other words...you do care about who holds the record."

Player X: " well I guess I do then..."

Mr. Bond: " then why don't you? "

Player X: " because that's a lot of time and effort ...and for what? "

Mr. Bond: "....um ...to be the record holder?...."

Player X: " what's the big deal with holding the record? "

Mr. Bond: " you tell me. You're the one who said you could beat it."

Player X: " I can..."

Mr. Bond: " lol "
 

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Player X: " I could run 589 any time, I just don't feel like messing with it.."

Mr. Bond: " yeah, right "

Player X: " no, really...I could..."

Mr. Bond: " ok, then why don't you? "

Player X: " because beating the record of possibly the world's greatest pocket billiard player doesn't mean much ..."

Mr. Bond: " so you have no desire to beat, or be, the world's greatest at something?"

Player X: "...well I didn't say THAT..."

Mr. Bond: " then why don't you do it? "

Player X: " ...because I don't feel like it."

Mr. Bond: " you do realize that if you don't prove it, then theres no point in saying that you could, right? "

Player X: " but I could.."

Mr. Bond: " I could too..."

Player X: " no you couldn't..."

Mr. Bond: " I could anytime ..."

Player X: " then why don't you ..."

Mr. Bond: " I can't really do it, I'm just making a point here...as soon as I said I could, you didn't believe me. "

Player X: " why should I ? "

Mr. Bond " point made ..."

Player X: " wait, what? "

Mr. bond: " saying that you could beat it means that the task holds enough weight for you to make that claim...in other words...you do care about who holds the record."

Player X: " well I guess I do then..."

Mr. Bond: " then why don't you? "

Player X: " because that's a lot of time and effort ...and for what? "

Mr. Bond: "....um ...to be the record holder?...."

Player X: " what's the big deal with holding the record? "

Mr. Bond: " you tell me. You're the one who said you could beat it."

Player X: " I can..."

Mr. Bond: " lol "

I echo what Mr. Bond says.

I would love to see this "same" table (or the one Willie ran 526 on) set up in the exact same manner (cloth/rails/etc.) at one of the MAJOR world pool tournaments and give each pro the chance to beat it.

Make the pot larger than the prize for 1st in the tournament. Then we will see who wins what, or who "doesn't" beat Willie's records.

Aloha.
 

Lonestar_jim

Two & Out
Silver Member
Stories like this where a player had a run going of this magnitude and then quit before missing (and there are several with several different players) show that the player in question just didn't care about a record and it just wasn't that important to them. If one were to believe these stories, it would also be reasonable to assume that there are other players who also would not care about it all that much, or that having such a record may not be as important to all top players as many paint it out to be. I'm not saying I believe these stories or don't, only that it would be somewhat inconsistent to believe that every player alive wants desperately to hold the high run record and would do it if they could, and then also believe these stories where someone had it or was close to it and then quit before they ever missed.

I do realize some will say that the players in question may not have thought the run would have been "official" anyway so why bother, but if it were that important they still wouldn't have quit without having missed just to have the bragging rights whether it could be made "official" or not. And they would also hope that they could convince enough people or prove it well enough for it to become "official" (and after all there were no official guidelines for what would make something "official", it was all just a matter of if you could convince enough people that it became commonly accepted as having happened, so the motivation to continue the run would still be there if the record was actually important to them). Just a thought.

I'm not saying that the players in question knew "the official requirements" or that the player knew whether enough were present to seek a record review from those who sanction said records. Some do seem to seek to break this record with passion (railbirds especially). Others have tried and failed or they had to call Geico for a rate quote.
What seems abundantly clear from Mr. Bond's re-post is that the player in question was the record holder and that he did not miss although he was apparently hungry based on testimony, but he made the ball before allowing the 14 to be racked. Not sure who you were talking about.
 

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
Player X: " I could run 589 any time, I just don't feel like messing with it.."

Mr. Bond: " yeah, right "

Player X: " no, really...I could..."

Mr. Bond: " ok, then why don't you? "

Player X: " because beating the record of possibly the world's greatest pocket billiard player doesn't mean much ..."

Mr. Bond: " so you have no desire to beat, or be, the world's greatest at something?"

Player X: "...well I didn't say THAT..."

Mr. Bond: " then why don't you do it? "

Player X: " ...because I don't feel like it."

Mr. Bond: " you do realize that if you don't prove it, then theres no point in saying that you could, right? "

Player X: " but I could.."

Mr. Bond: " I could too..."

Player X: " no you couldn't..."

Mr. Bond: " I could anytime ..."

Player X: " then why don't you ..."

Mr. Bond: " I can't really do it, I'm just making a point here...as soon as I said I could, you didn't believe me. "

Player X: " why should I ? "

Mr. Bond " point made ..."

Player X: " wait, what? "

Mr. bond: " saying that you could beat it means that the task holds enough weight for you to make that claim...in other words...you do care about who holds the record."

Player X: " well I guess I do then..."

Mr. Bond: " then why don't you? "

Player X: " because that's a lot of time and effort ...and for what? "

Mr. Bond: "....um ...to be the record holder?...."

Player X: " what's the big deal with holding the record? "

Mr. Bond: " you tell me. You're the one who said you could beat it."

Player X: " I can..."

Mr. Bond: " lol "

Some of the silliest [lack of] logic I've seen. Acknowledging that you can do something, does not mean that you want to do it, or that it would be worth the effort of doing it compared to the payoff even if you thought it was a good accomplishment. I can run quite a distance but never would if I didn't have to. But just because I say I can do it doesn't mean that I have a strong desire to do it, particularly when it would take a lot of effort.

And as stated previously, anybody that has your belief (that anybody would go through any and all efforts needed to break the record if they could) would not believe any of these stories about players who had the record or were close to it and just quit mid run without having missed, because it exactly goes against what you are arguing. Because if those stories are true, it shows that it wasn't that important to that player who quit mid run, even when there wasn't even going to be much effort needed to continue. It just simply wasn't important to them. And if it wasn't important enough to them when there was little time or effort needed to continue and finish at that point, it may not be important enough to other players either, especially compared to the time and effort it would take them starting from scratch.

But like I said, ask one of the top straight pool players if they thought they were capable of breaking Mosconi's record on the same equipment if they were motivated enough. And then call them a liar when you get their answer. And then put up the motivation, like a nice prize fund like I previously discussed, and watch how quick they prove that they were not lying at all. You have the ability to make it happen, and could easily get enough donated to the prize fund to test whether any of today's players could break the record. Set it up. Let's see who it right. I say it will be broken. You say no way, everybody alive is dying to have the record and if they had the capability to have broken it they would have already done whatever it took to do it. So set it up. You won't because you know they would break the record, and you don't want to see the record broken. You want to hang on to the belief that today's players couldn't do it, and that they were "better back in your day". You also you also don't want to be made to look dumb considering how strongly you argued that if they had the ability they would have already done it. Please, make it happen, and let's find out. There is no need to argue or wonder when we could get just get the proof. Please set it up and make it happen.
 
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Mr. Bond

Orbis Non Sufficit
Gold Member
Silver Member
* You want to hang on to the belief that today's players couldn't do it, and that they were "better back in your day". You also you also don't want to be made to look dumb considering how strongly you argued that if they had the ability they would have already done it..

Oh good grief.
I literally laughed out loud when I read this. Thanks for a good chuckle.

You're a silly, silly man.
Not only do I believe it can be broken, I HOPE it gets broken.

Nice try with the guilt trip though.
LOL funny stuff.
Baffling, but funny.
 

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
Not only do I believe it can be broken, I HOPE it gets broken.

What a misleading statement. What you really mean to say it that you believe that some day somebody might come along that can break the record. You have made it more than clear that you do not believe that any pro alive right now (or any pro that has ever lived since Mosconi for that matter) has ever possessed the ability to break the record. You have repeatedly argued that if they could have, they would have (because the pride of having the record would be enough for them to have done so, and since they didn't, it can only be because they can't).

Look all over in sports, and you will find hundreds of examples of people that could have broken world records but didn't, or broken even more world records than they did, or been the best at something at their time, or best ever at something, or made themselves really wealthy had they pursued it, but they didn't make the efforts to do so for various reasons. But yet some obscure record in an obscure sport (in the scheme of sports) in a game that has basically been dead for decades even within its own obscure sport, is supposed to be so much more enticing than these other more prestigious world records in more popular sports, more enticing than the millions of dollars these others could have earned by pursuing their sports excellence, and in fact so much more enticing than all of that that pool pros couldn't possibly have resisted all the effort to break this straight pool high run if they had the ability? Other people can resist better world records, or resist millions of dollars, but pool pros could never resist breaking Mosconi's record? Dumbest logic ever. Like literally ever. The evidence against that belief is so crystal clear and overwhelming it is astounding. It has happened all over with much more important records, and where there was much more fame and money to be had. You are one silly, silly man.

And I will say it again, we don't have to argue and speculate if one of today's pros could break the record. You have the ability to have everybody find out for sure. And if you say you actually want to see the record broken there is even more reason to do it. Make it happen. You want to argue that they can't break the record, yet you don't want to find out for sure even though you could (and I know exactly why, because you know in your heart you would be wrong). But don't take my word for it, let's find out.

And for the record, I don't have a problem with your opinion that nobody that has ever lived since Mosconi could have broken the record. It is something that is hard to judge, and is an opinion like that isn't ridiculous. What I have a problem with is the stupid logic used to arrive at that conclusion, said stupid logic being "well if they could have, they would have".
 
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sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
[...]
And for the record, I don't have a problem with your opinion that nobody that has ever lived since Mosconi could have broken the record. It is something that is hard to judge, and is an opinion like that isn't ridiculous. What I have a problem with is the stupid logic used to arrive at that conclusion, said stupid logic being "well if they could have, they would have".

While I do not wish to get in the middle of your repartee with the Mosconi deity-worshippers, I do have to agree with the above.

Thomas Engert has the modern-day high run of 491 on a German Dynamic-II table with Artemis cushions and 4.5-inch pockets. When you think about that number on that equipment, you have to respect the difficulty. Not only is that a 9-footer (compared to Mosconi's 526 on a recreationally-cut-pocket 8-footer [since 8-footers are commonly thought of as "the large-sized home table"), but arguably is a more challenging table than the common Brunswick Gold Crown with stock everything from the factory found all over. And, to me, Engert's 491 gets higher marks.

I forget where I read it (it was in German, and I had to solicit the help of Google translate), but there was an interview article with Thomas Engert where he talked about that run. In it, Thomas describes that as the run proceeded into stratospheric numbers (well beyond match-score-and-out numbers), he questioned more and more what he was doing; why; and whether it was worth it. It got to the point where it was more of a chore than a goal, and finally the run came to an end.

Although he didn't say it in the article, I'm sure Thomas was thinking about Mosconi's number -- or at least had that number "526" emblazoned back in the recesses of his mind. Whereas Mosconi likely didn't have a goal in mind when he ran his 526 -- he was just running balls for running balls sake to see where it would go -- Thomas Engert likely wasn't just running balls for running balls sake at all. He perhaps was going for the number. Strange things happen when you're going for a goal -- your mind plays tricks on you. The same things don't happen when you're [almost lackadaisically] just participating in an activity merely for the enjoyment of the activity itself, or if you're merely "seeing where this will lead."

Does Thomas Engert have the 14.1 knowledge and sheer playing ability to break Mosconi's 526? You BETCHA! Does Thomas have the mindset to do so? That's the real question. There's a difference between wanting to break a high number as a goal, and merely running balls to see where it leads. In the latter, there's no pressure.

Pressure is everything when it comes to something like this. Does the pro want it enough to be able to push the pressures of the goal back into the furthest recesses of his mind, and just enjoy the activity? (Enjoyment = mind food.)

-Sean
 
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Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For the record....

Originally posted by Hungerstrike:
Mosconi's run of 589 at age 66 or so in '79. 08-26-2011, 02:14 PM

" I just spoke with Charles Ursitti. He is ok right now riding out the hurricaine in Florida. I asked him about the run he witnessed which I knew to be near 600. The details are that it was done in the practice room of a major Las Vegas tournament in 1979. Charlie says that all the tournament pros came in to watch portions of the run at one point or another. Pete Margo came in and watched some.... then asked Charlie what the score is up to and Charlie said over 20 racks. He quotes Margo as saying that "if there was a 5000 point match right now, I'd bet on Willie." On the 589th ball, which was set up as a perfect break shot, Charlie told Willie that the next rack would put him over 600, but just as he was saying it, Willie fired in the 589th ball before the balls were racked. It was over because Willie was hungry and tired. I know Charles Ursitti very, very well and in doing research for him he has made me check and recheck facts. The overwhelming majority of his data (as seen on his website on the history of the game's records) has multiple sources. He is a stickler for facts. He has also been referee for many big matches. I have ZERO doubt in my mind as to the validity of this story. No doubt. This feat was accomplished on a standard 4.5'x9' Brunswick Gold Crown.... "

I had to chime in with my 2 cents after reading this. As I've posted at various times in various places, my father had some business dealings with Mosconi. As a result, Mosconi invited my father to half a dozen or so of his exhibitions in the late 1960's. Before the Princeton U. exhibition, they were having coffee at a cafeteria. This would have been 1968 or 1969. Long story short, the conversation turned to Minnesota Fats. Mosconi was the first to mention his name, not my father. Anyway, Mosconi's face gets red and he gets very animated about how Fats is going around telling everybody how he can beat Mosconi any time and yada yada yada. Then Mosconi says something like, "He can't beat me.. blah blah, I've run 604 balls!" The important part of course is the 604 balls. My father can't recall every detail of the conversation, but he believes this was on a 9' "regulation" table.

I have no reason to doubt my father. I've actually got an old file from when he dealt with Mosconi -- home phone number etc etc. So I know the meeting happened. I have no reason to doubt Mosconi. Why would he tell a guy he knows only a little that he ran 604 balls if he didn't?

Just thought it was interesting.
 

td873

C is for Cookie
Silver Member
I heard that he once ran 500 balls in Canada. With the conversion at the time, that's like 795 US balls.

-td
 

Mr. Bond

Orbis Non Sufficit
Gold Member
Silver Member
I heard that he once ran 500 balls in Canada. With the conversion at the time, that's like 795 US balls.

-td

You bring up a satirical but good point.
Would Greenleaf's 287 on a 10' table be equal to 526 on an 8footer?
Have you ever played on a 10 ft table with 4.5 pockets?

Is 408 on a diamond 9 footer equal to 526 on an 8 ft GC.

Does "the record" have to match the record in every conceivable way?

The court of public opinion speaks.
Or is it just the court of the fickle public that speaks?

Do players need a monetary incentive to break the record, or do players need a monetary incentive just to justify the time spent trying?


60+ years have passed since the 526 happened...and not once has an occasion risen when the record could have been broken?
 
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itsfroze

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Originally Posted By, poolplayer9:
" What you really mean to say... "

and now you're a mind reader too, LOL
 

wrldpro

H.RUN 311/Diamond W.R.
Gold Member
Silver Member
You bring up a satirical but good point.
Would Greenleaf's 287 on a 10' table be equal to 526 on an 8footer?


Is 408 on a diamond 9 footer equal to 526 on an 8 ft GC.

I figured after reading some of this thread I would chime in.

408 on a Diamond? To my knowledge by what has been told to me there has only been 1 run over 300 on a 9ft.Diamond table and Diamond tables have been around since the late 1980s.
The highest run on a Diamond from everyones knowledge is 311.Im not stating this fact to pat my self on my back but it was 2 years ago when I ran the 311 on a Diamond table.
 

wrldpro

H.RUN 311/Diamond W.R.
Gold Member
Silver Member
As far as record high run goes there are to many variables especially equipment.
During Mosconis time frame the table did have big pockets but todays Brunswicks do also.
Todays cushions are much faster making the game a lot easier. The use of Simonis cloth is a huge advantage compared to the old 75/25 wool cloth that was really slow.

The balls for many years were lighter when Mosconi played and straight pool was much harder as the balls didn't separate from the stack as easy.

There are many facts like Cranfield and others that ran more than 526 including Mosconi who broke the 500 mark about 10x,over 400 balls more than 50x and 300 balls 100x including on a 10ft.
So the record would be Cranfields or Mike E which both ran over 700.If someone ran 527 that would not be the all time record and even if one of todays players ran 800 that would be the official record for the highest single run but that player still couldn't carry Mosconis jockstrap in my opinion. Mosconi was simply the greatest 14.1 player and Lassiter for the best all around player especially for the cash.
 

Mr. Bond

Orbis Non Sufficit
Gold Member
Silver Member
I figured after reading some of this thread I would chime in.

408 on a Diamond? To my knowledge by what has been told to me there has only been 1 run over 300 on a 9ft.Diamond table and Diamond tables have been around since the late 1980s.
The highest run on a Diamond from everyones knowledge is 311.Im not stating this fact to pat my self on my back but it was 2 years ago when I ran the 311 on a Diamond table.

Good job chief. Seriously.

So My question is this, why did you run that high?

Was it required to win your match, or did you run because you wanted to run?

Would you like to hold the world's record?
Why or why not?

(There are no right or wrong answers)
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... Im not stating this fact to pat my self on my back but it was 2 years ago when I ran the 311 on a Diamond table.

Congrats on a great run. What size pockets did the table have? I ask, because not all Diamonds in the early years were "pro cut."
 

wrldpro

H.RUN 311/Diamond W.R.
Gold Member
Silver Member
Good job chief. Seriously.

So My question is this, why did you run that high?

Was it required to win your match, or did you run because you wanted to run?

Would you like to hold the world's record?
Why or why not?

(There are no right or wrong answers)

Just had a great day where everything went right. Ive had many runs that I felt were much better.
It happened during a practice session with a couple friends and the conditions were very good. The air was cool in the poolroom and the simonis felt was only 3 weeks old. The aramith balls that I was playing with were only a couple days old and never were removed to clean or polish during the run or any other run I have ever had.

Me hold the world record? Which record the highest run ever? My days of playing are all but gone now with my health conditions now. I kinda feel that Diamond tables are the best tables made and are used in more events than any other tables so Im sure there will be several players that have higher runs on a Diamond table than mine in due time and I hope im still around to see it happen.
 
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