Orcollo might try to beat the 626 record

Get_A_Grip said:

But no other player is realistically trying to break that specific record. Playing 14.1 tournaments and continuing a good run won't break the record IMO. The odds are just too overwhelmingly against doing it that way and there are hardly any 14.1 tournaments to begin with, so your point relating it to golf isn't valid at all IMO.

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My point was that pro's shouldn't nicely ask other pro's not to beat their achievements, you can apply it to any sport / scenario.

As I've already said, I don't expect anyone to beat the record in a hurry, I just think no pro should ever ask another pro not to attempt to beat them, its just odd (also if I were a pro, it would probably encourage me more to do just that)!

Bob Jewett said:

I calculated that John was about 25% to run 100 from any open shot in the format he was playing. I think Dennis might be 30% or 35% on loose equipment based on his intensity and success at DCC. In order to run 600+, Dennis will need about 1000 starts from zero. I think that will take more than a week, and in the process Dennis will run 300+ 20 or 30 times.

Or, he might catch lightning in a bottle the first hour. John's 626 was a serious outlier seeing as how he has never run a 500 and you could expect about four 500s before his first 600, statistically.

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The x Factor in all of this is the human element. How would Dennis respond after 2 300+ runs, then a mid 400's run ending on an errant skid, or a miscue....what follows is extreme anger, frustration, self doubts, second guessing....all the human emotions...then (as John described) during THE run, the ultimate pressure he was feeling in the 470-500 range.....

For Dennis this would be in the 570-600 range...after 4 hours of playing 40 racks...

John described that he had to go at the record for 20 years, in order to get somewhat numb to the failed 200's and 300's and keep forging ahead.

How would Dennis respond? Only fate will know.

vjmehra said:

My point was that pro's shouldn't nicely ask other pro's not to beat their achievements, you can apply it to any sport / scenario.

As I've already said, I don't expect anyone to beat the record in a hurry, I just think no pro should ever ask another pro not to attempt to beat them, its just odd (also if I were a pro, it would probably encourage me more to do just that)!

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Yeah, but I think that he only said/wrote that was because an elite pro DID actually indicate that he could do it and an offer was already made by a pool hall to possibly put cash up for Dennis to try right away. It just seems in poor taste for someone that doesn't really play 14.1 much to begin with to ALL OF A SUDDEN decide that they would try it NOW after seeing John pour everything that he had into it over the last new months and pull it off. If a pro is actually playing 14.1 and keeps a run going is one thing, but to do exactly what John did for the specific purpose of breaking the record is a different animal all together.

Get_A_Grip said:

Yeah, but I think that he only said/wrote that was because an elite pro DID actually indicate that he could do it and an offer was already made by a pool hall to possibly put cash up for Dennis to try right away. It just seems in poor taste for someone that doesn't really play 14.1 much to begin with to ALL OF A SUDDEN decide that they would try it NOW after seeing John pour everything that he had into it over the last new months and pull it off. If a pro is actually playing 14.1 and keeps a run going is one thing, but to do exactly what John did for the specific purpose of breaking the record is a different animal all together.

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I agree. The fact that all of a sudden there's this interest in going after JS's record now that money has been offered is quite suspect. JS did it purely for the challenge. Yes, I know, there was a bounty for breaking the 526 at one time, but it was short-lived.

This 526 *needed* to be broken. With all of the Mosconi hanger-ons, it screamed "break me!"

-Sean

vjmehra said:

My point was that pro's shouldn't nicely ask other pro's not to beat their achievements, you can apply it to any sport / scenario.

As I've already said, I don't expect anyone to beat the record in a hurry, I just think no pro should ever ask another pro not to attempt to beat them, its just odd (also if I were a pro, it would probably encourage me more to do just that)!

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Now, strictly looking at this from my perspective as a pool enthusiast, I would certainly enjoy watching one of the elite pros try to do what John did, regardless of when they tried it. If for no other reason than I would like to see how hard it would be for one of the elite ball runners to do. Whether it would be is poor taste or not, I would certainly like to see someone else try it and watch their runs. It would probably give me even more satisfaction to watch Dennis try to do it and FAIL. It would highlight how difficult of a task it really is to pull off.

Has there been any notice of this feat in mainstream media? In Sports Illustrated?
Besides our little tight-knit fraternity, does the world know what's going on?

Frankenstroke said:

Has there been any notice of this feat in mainstream media? In Sports Illustrated?
Besides our little tight-knit fraternity, does the world know what's going on?

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It was reported in the sports section of the NY Times in its 5/29 issue.

Frankenstroke said:

Has there been any notice of this feat in mainstream media? In Sports Illustrated?
Besides our little tight-knit fraternity, does the world know what's going on?

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In NY Times, yes:

https://nytimes.com/2019/05/28/sports/john-schmidt-straight-pool-record-mosconi.html

But in general, we're too busy in-fighting in our "tight-knit fraternity" by previous-idol-defending (Mosconi hanger-ons) and our classic "throw our pros (JS) under the bus".

That's why any efforts to recognize JS's real achievement will be compromised by our own egos and short-sightedness.

-Sean

sfleinen said:

I agree. The fact that all of a sudden there's this interest in going after JS's record now that money has been offered is quite suspect. JS did it purely for the challenge. Yes, I know, there was a bounty for breaking the 526 at one time, but it was short-lived.

This 526 *needed* to be broken. With all of the Mosconi hanger-ons, it screamed "break me!"

-Sean

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It’s great to see you en-signing in again, sir.

Personally, I’d like to see every player in the world take a shot at 626...
...it’d be a shot in the arm for the game...like the two Fast Eddie movies.
I suspect that only Hohmann has a chance of doing it...
...14.1 has been a part of his life since he was young...and still young enough to do it.

Dan White said:

If you are specifically referring to world class pros who do not play straight pool vs world class pros who play a lot of straight pool you are talking about players who have mastered many aspects of pool in general. I don't think I could tell you for sure what a guy like Dennis might be lacking, but then it might be only one small thing that makes the difference between 300 and a miss vs continuing the run.

A couple of possible differences come to mind for me:

1. Short distance speed control. There are situations where you need to put the cue ball on a dime at short distance. If you've been playing only 9 ball this might be a problem. By problem I mean you miss this kind of position only 1 or 2 out of 10 times, but that's enough to end a run.

2. Playing position while breaking up a cluster. Knowing how balls pop out of a cluster and at what speed, where the cue ball will end up, etc. isn't easy to do if you haven't worked on that skill.

3. Getting the cue ball in optimal position for the break shot. You need to be able to get that cue ball right where it needs to be from anywhere on the table. Great straight pool players have that zone where the cue ball needs to go burned into their muscle memory.

I'm sure I could come up with many more. I note that you say that every rack is the same and all Schmidt had to worry about was the break ball. That's the mark of a great run... it looked easy to you.

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I didn’t say it looked easy at any point in my post. I said there didn’t seem to be too many skills required in straight pool that any other skilled player doesn’t have. There are maybe 10 standard positions to go into the pack. My comment about the pack being identical each time isn’t debatable. It simply is. The difference is the break ball. But what are variations? Come in high from a break ball at the blue spot. Come into the side thin with the cue ball near the side cushion. Come into the side thick with the cue ball closer to the center of the table. Come into the bottom thick or thin. Come off the cushion and into the pack. Use appropriate side to get the cue ball moving off the first rail towards a central position. I’m in no way saying this is easy, just that there aren’t that many options.

I’m sure high level players have the pace control required for pinpoint positional play, I also believe that the majority of a rack of straight pool is played in zones until there’s several balls remaining.

Any pro who has played 8 ball will be familiar with breaking up clusters.

Positioning for the break shot is essentially the same as leaving an angle for the next two shots in rotation.

Maybe I’m missing something, or maybe my opinion is being colored by twenty years of playing snooker and English billiards before touching US pool. Straight pool and snooker have quite a lot more in common that rotation games and snooker.

Edit:I’m honestly trying to pinpoint the biggest for a skilled player who doesn’t have experience playing 14.1. I wonder if it’s actually just the mindset. Being constantly focused on the objective for each rack. Constantly working towards that key ball and break ball. Constantly staying focused on problem areas. Perhaps it’s not ability or knowledge that would prove to be barriers, rather simply have the mindset and focus for 14.1 specifically.

I think John is feeling a little paranoid.

526 was like a mythical mountain and he tried so freakin hard to climb it and overcome all the doubts and everything and now that he did and he’s on top, first...mad excitement and relief...then he hears folk clambering up the side to knock him off and now the doubts set in. Maybe it’s not actually so hard, these dudes are the best players in the world etc etc. maybe one will get lottery lucky the first day and crush my dreams...

Well I don’t blame him lol. I’d be paranoid too but I think it’s unwarranted. I do believe someone will try and succeed in the not too distant future but I just don’t see it happening like with the “Tie down calf roping”


And on that semi-unrelated note: what kind of crazy thing is tie down calf roping? Imagine a race similar to humans watching from afar and seeing this happen and trying to figure it all out I’m not making fun of it as I think it’s awsome and difficult to do well but it really is a strange competition.

Get_A_Grip said:

Yeah, but I think that he only said/wrote that was because an elite pro DID actually indicate that he could do it and an offer was already made by a pool hall to possibly put cash up for Dennis to try right away. It just seems in poor taste for someone that doesn't really play 14.1 much to begin with to ALL OF A SUDDEN decide that they would try it NOW after seeing John pour everything that he had into it over the last new months and pull it off. If a pro is actually playing 14.1 and keeps a run going is one thing, but to do exactly what John did for the specific purpose of breaking the record is a different animal all together.

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Well they are professional sportsmen, their 'job' is to be the best performer on a pool table, poor taste might be relevant in terms of table etiquette etc. but there is no established etiquette here, if someone chooses to go for the record they have every right to do so, there is no logical reason for them not too, least of all some odd notion it might be in poor taste.

Now, whether player X (whoever that may be) was being disrespectful by suggesting it would be easy (or similar) is another matter. I think most people would agree its not easy, but equally JS shouldn't therefore feel threatened. By saying things like that it makes him sound like he's scared someone could easily do it (which I don't think is the case).

sjm said:

What few are asking is "why would someone who plays 9/10 ball for a living suddenly devote all their energies to trying to set a high run record in straight pool?" Surely, their rotation game skills would slip if they took this course, so why would they do this.

John's commitment to the high run record may never be equaled, and that's why I think he will hold the record for a long, long time.

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I agree with that especially now that the goalpost was moved another 100 balls farther away. No guarantee devoting a ton of time would get the record. I think the reward would have to me a lot more than $10,000.

iusedtoberich said:

I’d vote for Filler having the best chance of the current players to beat the 626.

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I agree..him or Alex

Tooler said:

I agree..him or Alex

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Filler is who I thought of first. He’s a badass and I could see him wanting it enough to put in some time. Probably not now or soon though since he’s currently making $$ on top of the world elsewhere

Something Real

JazzyJeff87 said:

And on that semi-unrelated note: what kind of crazy thing is tie down calf roping? Imagine a race similar to humans watching from afar and seeing this happen and trying to figure it all out I’m not making fun of it as I think it’s awsome and difficult to do well but it really is a strange competition.

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Rodeo started off long long ago for cowboys to show off their skills. A cowboy on the range often saw wild calves with their mothers. Owned but never been touched by human hands. No pens, no chutes, no help. That calf might be several hundred pounds or more in the real world and I have seen full grown cows given the same treatment. Ideally you try to get to the calf about the time it hits the end of the rope and before it gets it's balance back. Reach across to a far side hoof, put a shoulder into the calf and bowl it over. A stiff cord was already in one hand with ready made loop. You quickly tie the two front legs and one hind leg. You want one leg free to spread them for a little on the spot surgery.

Now the calf is ready to be worked on. Ear notch, worming, maybe a tag in the ear, a young bull might have some on the spot services performed that sensitive souls may not want to dwell on. To add insult to injury while some cowboys collect calf fries, in hot weather the former bull may watch them tossed to a cow dog waiting nearby!

If two cowboys are available, full grown cows might be headed and heeled for much the same service. We don't see much dogging out in the real world but it is certainly possible. About the only things I can think of off hand that didn't come from real ranch life is bull riding and barrel racing for the girls.

I have helped out working wild cows. It is interesting. Sometimes the bawling of an unhappy calf calls in an unhappy momma with a nice set of horns! Trying to work bent over with a narrow field of view covering a calf and a few feet of ground while wondering if the cow is attacking can get the blood pumping!

Tie down calf roping is a very real activity brought to the rodeo arena so spectators can see what most never will in real life.

End of the sidetrack and probably more about tie down calf roping than anyone including Jeff wanted to know!:thumbup:

Hu

I would like to see guys attempt breaking it, while I agree there are players that have a shot at breaking it, I dont see anyone doing soon, that would give John a little more credit for his efforts

Dennis is a phenomenal player. I think he is greatly underestimating just how phenomenal 626 is. I might end up looking dumb, but I don't think he'll break 400

Mika is another player that, givin the right incentive, would eventually take it down.

I think once a BIG $ number is offered up...it will happen.


No way it happens quick. Someone will have to devote months....day in,day out...



And to think, no more 14.1 at Derby.

What a shame.

Glad that John did not mention amateurs..
I can break that 626 with good conscience.. :wink: