shot maker vs position player

L

liakos

Banned
Hope all is well with everyone:)

So last night I played a friend a fairly cheap set race to 15. I always considered him a verygood shotmaker, but his rock is sometimes a little suspect. I never considered myself a shotmaker, more of a position player! So we played the set on a fairly tight table and I won the set 15-10! All is well and it was late so we pretty much left! Outside a couple of friends were there making small talk and I decided to hang for a bit! One of them I consider a phenominal player and I'm sure almost everyone here has heard of him. Anyway, we were talking about the match and I was telling him I wish I could make balls like my opponent could, and he says to me you shouldn't think like that, you shoot as good if not better! I said I move better, but I don't shoot better! He asked me who won the match? I said I did! He said youre the better player!

So here is my question, because I missed less, am I the better shotmaker? And what does everyone look at overall in a player? Cue ball control or shotmaking?

Admittingly I'm not too crazy about shotmaking, I would rather have control:)
 
haystj

haystj

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Shape on the next ball is worthless unless you make the ball you're shooting at.
 
center pocket

center pocket

It's just a hobby, but a fun one.
Silver Member
I consider shot making a given when it comes to B players and up. What separates the best from the good is having that cue ball on a string. When I know I am shooting well, I can just focus on where I want the cue ball and the stroke needed to get there. I don't give a second thought to making the shot unless its a tough shot or I am hitting it at an awkward speed or spin.

Also i gambled against a kid in phoenix on a diamond 4 1/4" that was making shots like crazy but his cue ball control was horrible. I wasn't shooting to straight that night but the fact i played position better than him gave me the confidence to seal the deal. I think he might have been a league 8 ball player or something. It blew my mind how straight he could shoot but leave the cue ball in the jaws of the pocket.
 
Last edited:
Sedog

Sedog

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sounds a lot like my game, great position but missed the shot. And as stated eariler position does you know good if you did not make the shot.
 
DAVE_M

DAVE_M

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
haystj said:
Shape on the next ball is worthless unless you make the ball you're shooting at.
Click to expand...

That's a bad mentality. That's APA 9-ball mentality.

I see it two ways:

Can you make the ball? No.
Well then you can't get shape.

Can you make the ball? Yes.
Can you get shape? No.
Should you play safe? Yes.

If you can make the ball and get shape, then there's no need for discussion.
 
L

liakos

Banned
DAVE_M said:
That's a bad mentality. That's APA 9-ball mentality.

I see it two ways:

Can you make the ball? No.
Well then you can't get shape.

Can you make the ball? Yes.
Can you get shape? No.
Should you play safe? Yes.

If you can make the ball and get shape, then there's no need for discussion.
Click to expand...

This is how I play! I usually don't miss the easy ones!:) I can and quite often run out from anywhere! But when it comes time to make that tough shot, my opponent has mas an edge on me! We are both b+ players by the way!
 
haystj

haystj

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
DAVE_M said:
That's a bad mentality. That's APA 9-ball mentality.

I see it two ways:

Can you make the ball? No.
Well then you can't get shape.

Can you make the ball? Yes.
Can you get shape? No.
Should you play safe? Yes.

If you can make the ball and get shape, then there's no need for discussion.
Click to expand...

Valid point. I see what you are saying. I think I get too greedy and don't think about the safe if I can make the shot.
 
branpureza

branpureza

Ginacue
Silver Member
While being a great shot-maker or being great at position aren't mutually exclusive, the player that is better with cueball control and position is, over time, going to win against the shot-maker. All other things being equal of course.
 
F

frigopie

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
DAVE_M said:
That's a bad mentality. That's APA 9-ball mentality.

I see it two ways:

Can you make the ball? No.
Well then you can't get shape.

Can you make the ball? Yes.
Can you get shape? No.
Should you play safe? Yes.

If you can make the ball and get shape, then there's no need for discussion.
Click to expand...

if you can pocket any ball, you don't need any shape, just take care to don't get snookered or scratch.
Now being realistic, not all shots have the same % , no matter how good you are, so getting shape for an high % next shot is always a good idea, at the end of the day you will be making more balls.

Anyway, your mentality is the way to go to play at a good level.
 
SmoothStroke

SmoothStroke

Swim for the win.
Silver Member
Take the position player all day long
You can only make so many recovery shots in a game, nevermind an entire match.
If an opponet has a weak cue ball, his safety and kick game will be weak also.

Sounds to me, if you learn a few things, you should beat him 15- 7...he will need weight.
Work on your game
 
tucson9ball

tucson9ball

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
liakos said:
Hope all is well with everyone:)

So last night I played a friend a fairly cheap set race to 15. I always considered him a verygood shotmaker, but his rock is sometimes a little suspect. I never considered myself a shotmaker, more of a position player! So we played the set on a fairly tight table and I won the set 15-10! All is well and it was late so we pretty much left! Outside a couple of friends were there making small talk and I decided to hang for a bit! One of them I consider a phenominal player and I'm sure almost everyone here has heard of him. Anyway, we were talking about the match and I was telling him I wish I could make balls like my opponent could, and he says to me you shouldn't think like that, you shoot as good if not better! I said I move better, but I don't shoot better! He asked me who won the match? I said I did! He said youre the better player!

So here is my question, because I missed less, am I the better shotmaker? And what does everyone look at overall in a player? Cue ball control or shotmaking?

Admittingly I'm not too crazy about shotmaking, I would rather have control:)
Click to expand...

This scenario has been discussed many times...
I'm in the same boat as you, if pool was just about setting up difficult shots and seeing who could make it a better % of the time, I would not win. Luckily for me, pool has many categories, shot selection, position play and lastly, safety play.
A great shotmaker can't make what he can't see, just sayin ;)
 
Pidge

Pidge

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Whilst potting is the most important part of the game, if that's all you focus on you will never be any good. Position is what gives you the opportunity to make the next ball, and not only that, the opportunity to make the ball at an angle you are comfortable with. It means your shot making doesn't need to be world class, but you still need some sort of shot making ability.

If someone is a fantastic shot maker there is no reason they can't become a fantastic player. They obviously have their stroke down that they can make balls from anywhere. The stroke is the hardest part of the game to get almost perfect, so if they have this there is no excuse not to start focusing on position, and with a mix of the two should become a very good player.
 
M

mantis99

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I would much rather have better cue ball control for a few reasons. First, you don't need to be a great shot maker if you control the cue ball better. Even great shot makers have lower percentages of making those tougher shots than a decent shot maker does of shooting an easy one. Second, it doesn't matter if you can make every shot on the table, if you can't control the CB, you will sooner or later put yourself in a position where you have no shot. Third, good CB control gives you the ability to move from one shot to the other correctly. If you make a ball, but leave the CB in a spot where you can't get to the next shot, then making the ball now has much less value.
 
td873

td873

C is for Cookie
Silver Member
For most games, you only need extraordinary shot making ability when your opponent misses, after the break, of if you have no cue ball control. Otherwise, control really is the key to being a better player. Many patterns repeat themselves, so having your core set of shots down will make you an overall better player.

Put differently, jump shots, masse shots, super long back cut shots, come in once in a while, but the 30 degree cut shot with outside English happens all the time. You should definitely have a bag of shots in your arsenal. But you don't need all of them. However, you DO need to know which shots are in your toolbox (vs the shots you THINK are in there, but really aren't).

That being said, you can get beat by a shot maker if they have a little luck on their side. But over the long haul, cue ball control wins.


-td
 
Black-Balled

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Stop thinking lik that. Virtually all balls can be made.

Sometimes running out is like drunk driving, sometimes it is like making toast.
 
R

ronscuba

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here is a spin on the question.

If you could start out being very strong with one and leave the other to practice and grow, would you rather start out a strong shotmaker or position player ?
 
HawaiianEye

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
DAVE_M said:
That's a bad mentality. That's APA 9-ball mentality.

I see it two ways:

Can you make the ball? No.
Well then you can't get shape.

Can you make the ball? Yes.
Can you get shape? No.
Should you play safe? Yes.

If you can make the ball and get shape, then there's no need for discussion.
Click to expand...

THIS is the way it IS!

I think the ONLY reason you should make a ball when you CAN'T get position to make the next ball is when you can play a BETTER safe after making the ball.
 
F

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
ronscuba said:
Here is a spin on the question.

If you could start out being very strong with one and leave the other to practice and grow, would you rather start out a strong shotmaker or position player ?
Click to expand...

Definitely shot-making first. Ray Martin taught me that when he was my coach. I can still hear him preaching to me how the great players were all great shot-makers before they became great position players.
 
ShootingArts

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
two sides of a coin

It should be the two sides of the same coin. When you plan your shot correctly it is impossible to miss half of it. You either make the ball and get shape or you miss both. I hate missing half the shot because that means I really screwed up, I had missed before I ever put my bridge hand down.

Hu
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top