I have no idea what you mean by this sentence. It makes no sense to me. What is forming an angle to the rail? Which rail?
Speed angles and spin
- Thread starter skipbales
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Oh, I think I get what you're saying now: a half ball hit is always a 30-degree cut to the pocket, but the CB's "natural" carom angle into the rail changes from shot to shot.
That's right of course - I think Bob means that a half ball hit gives the greatest ability to control/change the CB carom angle, into the rail or otherwise.
pj
chgo
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I probably wan't clear enough. I know I am wordy.
The concept of a half ball hit changed the subject. Refer back to the exact setup and original question. Almost all of the options are at or near a half ball hit. The question was on the set up shown what angle to the end rail makes position to the center of the table easiest to obtain. The balance is between steepness into the rail and spin required. As the cue ball moves closer to the end rail the angle to the rail decreases and top spin has a greater effect and side spin less effect. Of course at the same time the angle to pocket the ball changes as well. So the ball gets easier to pocket as the angle lessens until you are so straight in you can't spin there at all. As the angle increases the cut angle becomes greater and more side spin is required to move around the two rails and get to the middle until the cut angle is too great to make it even possible.
It turns out, set up exactly as shown a half ball hit creates about a 40 degree angle into the end rail and is about where I like it. As I mentioned I like a hit here a little less than a half ball hit, slightly more straight in and using more top spin to go with the right to get to the center of the table. The instructors seem to prefer more angle into the rail which lessens the effect of the top spin and increases the amount of side spin necessary to get around to the center of the table.
All of the options are plus or minus 10% of a half ball hit but it is those differences that increase the difficulty. Approaching the object ball for a half ball hit lines the cue ball up for about a 40 degree angle into the rail. The instructors are suggesting about a 5% steeper angle and I favor about 5% flatter angle. It makes both the shot and position easier but you have to hit a little harder as you are connection with a greater percentage of the object ball, slightly more than 1/2 the ball where the instructors angle connects with slightly less than the 1/2 the ball so the cue ball loses less energy and you hit it softer but have to spin it more to get to the middle instead of over by the side pocket.
You could probably make the object ball into the pocket with a half ball hit from any of the possible choices, depending on which part of the pocket you picked. Here is a better diagram. The choices for the cue ball are 1, 2 or 3 to hit the 8 ball in and spin out two rails to get the cue ball to position 15.
As I mentioned the instructional videos recommend position 3 as the ideal angle into the shot for easy position to center table. I prefer position 1 and maybe even left of that a little. Much less angle. From position 3 it is a soft hit with a lot of side spin or you don't get to the center of the table you end up mid way between the center and the side pocket. The instructors seem to emphasize the "soft hit" as being the goal.
Yes. I like what Bob is saying that 1/2 ball hit position is generally a good goal for all conditions.
This is more about one very common situation . You are trying to set yourself up for the best angle on balls along the rails so you can easily spin back out to the middle of the table. This is about the most common thing you do in 8 ball. It doesn't matter if the balls are along the long rail or end rails, you just want to make the ball and get out to the middle of the table for the most shot opportunities on your next shot.. On end rails it is a two rail to the middle path on long rails it is 3 rails to the middle path. Sometimes it is easier to draw back out but a lot of the time a two rail around the corner shot is more handy. Whether the balls are near the pocket, on the rail, near the rail, a little off the rail, or a lot off with change whether a half ball hit will pocket the ball and give you the angle into the rail to spin around. Most are pretty close to that angle, it is the difference in 22 degrees and 40 degrees I am talking about. You can come off the object ball at 30 degrees but you don't go into the rail at 30 degrees. I want to come into the rail about 25 degrees and the instructors are recommending about 40 degrees. Seems too steep for me.
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Here is a link to Bert Kinister demonstrating this shot on his 60 minute workout video.
You have to fast forward to shot 5 ( a minute and 45 seconds into the video) although several of the shots are similar, just taking the cue ball to different places. Shot 4 is the same shot but down the long rail and that angle is not as steep. It is center of the table spin off 3 rails then back to center of the table.
Shot 5 is off the end rail and returns the cue ball to the center of the table. Notice how steep the angle is to the object ball and rail. He talks about just right English and a soft hit and no more than a full tip of right. From what I see when I set this up it takes full right English.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2od79q
Tor Lowry shows the same shots and so does Dr. Dave. Tor and Bert seem to like a lot of angle. If memory serves me correct I think Dr. Dave likes a little less angle. He demonstrates all the places you can get with only a small angle on one of his cds.
You have to fast forward to shot 5 ( a minute and 45 seconds into the video) although several of the shots are similar, just taking the cue ball to different places. Shot 4 is the same shot but down the long rail and that angle is not as steep. It is center of the table spin off 3 rails then back to center of the table.
Shot 5 is off the end rail and returns the cue ball to the center of the table. Notice how steep the angle is to the object ball and rail. He talks about just right English and a soft hit and no more than a full tip of right. From what I see when I set this up it takes full right English.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2od79q
Tor Lowry shows the same shots and so does Dr. Dave. Tor and Bert seem to like a lot of angle. If memory serves me correct I think Dr. Dave likes a little less angle. He demonstrates all the places you can get with only a small angle on one of his cds.
Right Larry.
I have no issues getting the cue ball to the center of the table on this shot. A boat load of spin not speed and no follow thru.
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I have no issues getting the cue ball to the center of the table on this shot. A boat load of spin not speed and no follow thru.
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Same for me. It is the "butt load of spin" that flys in the face of the instruction. He says it is less than a tip of spin. I too can do it but, like you, need to use a lot of spin, a lot more than one tip. I just wonder why a pro would want to try to get this position instead of less angle which would require less spin. From what I see I just don't see how it is a simple medium spin shot.
It may be the camera angle or table size or ?? Both Kinister and Lowry show good position for these shots to be more steep than I would prefer. It does make it easier to get all the way up table with a soft stroke but I prefer a medium speed stroke with less angle even to go all the way up table.
Follow through is physically irrelevant to the shot. I think it is a mistake to recommend limiting the follow through on this shot. Use a normal stroke.
And if you want to play lawyer on me --- I didn't say that you recommended anything. I just said it would be harmful to recommend to a player your technique.
Responding to the original post:
This is a finesse shot. Low right will do the trick but it's all about at what point you allow the backspin to wear off. You need it to hold on just long enough to widen the angle from the bottom rail to the side rail. Then it has to release or you'll lose speed.
This is a finesse shot. Low right will do the trick but it's all about at what point you allow the backspin to wear off. You need it to hold on just long enough to widen the angle from the bottom rail to the side rail. Then it has to release or you'll lose speed.
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Thanks Fran. Bob suggested the drag as well.
I can make it a couple different ways, low right is one of them. Center right works too but in both cases I still have more than a tip of right on it. In both cases the drag slows it down, allows the spin to be more effective and it does spin out to the middle of the table. It just isn't what I would call my "preferred" position.
That is the part I don't understand. Tor and Bert both show it as a kind of staple or desired angle for balls along the rail to move up the table or get out to the middle. It does move the cue ball faster but as you note it becomes a finesse shot to get to the middle. For a staple or desired angle I like 22-30 degrees into the rail better. I was just wondering if it played differently on a 9' table and if they were on an 88" table if they would still want that much angle. To me it would not be the angle I would be trying for, it would be the angle I could live with if I missed my perfect angle by a little. :frown:
No question, it's a tricky little shot. I'd look really hard for an alternative first because it's pretty hard to control the speed with that combination of side and backspin, since the object isn't to draw the cb but to have it run forward. Sometimes even a safety would be better or even play position for a safe shot on the next shot. It depends on the situation at the time.
When many say “I only do this” that means it’s their standard approach for general shooting, it never accounts for non standard shots. Say a masse shot is not a standard shot as example.
As for the dislike of soft shots.....that’s your subconscious trying to be self serving, meaning your avoiding a error prone aspect of your game.
There’s probably a deceleration component to your stroke which is causing said feeling and effect.
Great example
I had a student who started off on a snooker table and he had speed control drills to to ranging from 1-10. He was freshly picking up the game and had only been shooting a few weeks or so.
He told me “I’ve been practicing it and I’m doing the speed drills and doing them well when it comes to the 3-5.....I can’t really hit the ball accurate enough yet to want to shoot faster but that will come. But I’m having trouble with the 1 and 2 speeds.”
I told him well that’s actually perfect. The standard shot speeds are generally in the ranges of 3-5. The more powerful strokes and very soft strokes are the extremes.....so that’s expected just continue to work the drill and it will come.
He wholly agreed felt comforted and he continued to progress with good results.
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I will say going up table to center off two rails hitting short rail first, it’s easier to get to center or rough area of it with the higher degree cut using the side spin, coming in at a shallower angle there’s too much forward progression plus the spin hooks it into the long rail even more, equating to short position, you will end up closer to the opposite side pocket you were shooting towards and more towards the headstrong/footstring than actual center.
If your shooting the shallow angle, to get to center as the op prefers, then all that’s needed is shoot the ball above center....the rail will induce the spin that will help the travel distance off the second rail. (This is playing the ball a la natural) now lessen the angle even more and the proper shot is just a center ball hit and using only one rail position.
In regards to having options I personally always liked to be a little on the inside of the cut instead of back cutting, onthe line or just inside the line gives option to go not only forward or backwards with the cueball but also left or right with it.
That’s a good connotation of how I teach students.....strafe like maneuvering, with more natural play especially if the shot can be accomplished letting the cushions apply more or most of the necessary side spin on the cb.
It’s basically similar to known bank theory.....the balls run on their own so let them, this is why you see lots of center or draw/kill applied in banks....the ob acts more natural off the rail.
Ever shoot a Z bank with inside? It comes off the second rail like it’s drunk, with a center or outside or draw the effect off the second rail is more natural as it kills the first rails induced English.....with inside it throws it and makes the ball curve outwards still having much side spin on it.
So for say one hole the inside English will have you catch another rail and the spin will roll it across the corner and swing back towards center....hit it with the run and the speed is right and again we happen to miss the ball will hit the short or long rail (generally the long rail) and it’s gonna stay close to the pocket. (That’s the pro side on that shot)
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If your shooting the shallow angle, to get to center as the op prefers, then all that’s needed is shoot the ball above center....the rail will induce the spin that will help the travel distance off the second rail. (This is playing the ball a la natural) now lessen the angle even more and the proper shot is just a center ball hit and using only one rail position.
In regards to having options I personally always liked to be a little on the inside of the cut instead of back cutting, onthe line or just inside the line gives option to go not only forward or backwards with the cueball but also left or right with it.
That’s a good connotation of how I teach students.....strafe like maneuvering, with more natural play especially if the shot can be accomplished letting the cushions apply more or most of the necessary side spin on the cb.
It’s basically similar to known bank theory.....the balls run on their own so let them, this is why you see lots of center or draw/kill applied in banks....the ob acts more natural off the rail.
Ever shoot a Z bank with inside? It comes off the second rail like it’s drunk, with a center or outside or draw the effect off the second rail is more natural as it kills the first rails induced English.....with inside it throws it and makes the ball curve outwards still having much side spin on it.
So for say one hole the inside English will have you catch another rail and the spin will roll it across the corner and swing back towards center....hit it with the run and the speed is right and again we happen to miss the ball will hit the short or long rail (generally the long rail) and it’s gonna stay close to the pocket. (That’s the pro side on that shot)
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That’s a hole in your game my friend....you should resolve those types of shot to be able to stroke them as close to your normal stroke as possible. Decelerating the cue prior to contact is a real sketchy way to shoot as it involves changes in grip pressure and unnecessary additional muscle action.
We talk about follow through but it really is goofey. I can shoot a whole game and run out with the tip penetrating the cb 6” or even a foot....and turn around and play the next game where my tip never even passes where the far side of the cb was.....Put a draw shot say 2ft away I’ll finish long and get 10’ of draw and then shoot it with no penetration and make it draw even longer...or the same length.
Follow through is silly and has nothing to do with speed or power.
That’s why that “finish spot” of the hand is so strong. I don’t have to jack around with where my hand goes, it goes the same place always unless I’m jacked up or chicken winging right handed then my spots where my bicep meets the Popeye forearms lol.
If I need to have the cue tip finish at a particular spot at the ball, middle of ball, end of ball or after all I do is adjust the cue where I hold it....I don’t adjust like that when I shoot normal shots but I do “short finish” when balls are close an could cause a double hit. But the point is just about the uselessness of that word follow through and what it does and doesn’t even accomplish.
Merry shootin baws and guhs
-de grey wun
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