SS joint vs ?

Bavafongoul

Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The Famous Blind Test........

If you use a cue that weighs between 18 ounces and less than 19 ounces, use a cue tip that isn't a hard firmness,
preferably soft, and the shaft weight is >20% (preferably 21-22%) of the cue's assembled weight, you can distinguish
playing with a flat ivory joint versus a piloted steel 5/16x14 joint with most cues.

Too many cues are made with weight disproportions and some shafts weigh like 17-18% and a shaft weighing 21%.
same shaft specs but heavier plays & feels different & so with joint variations, pool cues will manifest a different feel.


I experimented with cue joints for 2 1/2 years before switching to flat ivory joints. A wood to wood joint feels better
than a flat ivory but I prefer flat ivory over wood or piloted ivory. As you tell from my cue collection, I walk the talk too.
All six of my customs have closely matching specs & four have identical specs which was not just by coincidence.


The bottomline is learn about pool cue anatomy, how a cue gets actually made and play with whatever you like.
A pool cue won't turn you into a champion unless you already possess the skills and mindset to make it perform.


Matt B.
 
Michael Webb

Michael Webb

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My take on joints is. I construct my splice according to what my joint will be. They're not all the same.
 
Shawn Armstrong

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
Bavafongoul said:
If you use a cue that weighs between 18 ounces and less than 19 ounces, use a cue tip that isn't a hard firmness,
preferably soft, and the shaft weight is >20% (preferably 21-22%) of the cue's assembled weight, you can distinguish
playing with a flat ivory joint versus a piloted steel 5/16x14 joint with most cues.

Too many cues are made with weight disproportions and some shafts weigh like 17-18% and a shaft weighing 21%.
same shaft specs but heavier plays & feels different & so with joint variations, pool cues will manifest a different feel.


I experimented with cue joints for 2 1/2 years before switching to flat ivory joints. A wood to wood joint feels better
than a flat ivory but I prefer flat ivory over wood or piloted ivory. As you tell from my cue collection, I walk the talk too.
All six of my customs have closely matching specs & four have identical specs which was not just by coincidence.


The bottomline is learn about pool cue anatomy, how a cue gets actually made and play with whatever you like.
A pool cue won't turn you into a champion unless you already possess the skills and mindset to make it perform.


Matt B.
Click to expand...

Or, the alternate lesson, after reading this post, is that some people get far too hung up on minutae that really will not affect how a cue plays one bit.
 
cubswin

cubswin

Just call me Joe...
Silver Member
I play the same regardless of joint sleeve material.

Tips, taper, ferrule all make a bigger difference to me.
 
sonny_burnett

sonny_burnett

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Really great answers. The blind tell was exactly what I was looking for. AS usual it's the Indian not the arrow or it's all in your mind.

Thanks.
 
Q

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
I wouldn't put much stock in any blind test. Not only are you trying different joints, but different cues entirely. The only real test, IMO, would be same cue, same shaft, interchanging joint configurations for the purpose of testing. Until this happens, I don't think I could really form a definitive opinion. I make big pin flat faced cues. I swapped a cue with John Showman once while we were playing a game, and was blown away at how similar his stainless jointed cue felt & hit to my big pin cue. I could swap cues shot by shot & never skip a beat. From that point forward I haven't had a solid opinion on cue joints other than a good one will secure the two halves together & that's what matters.
 
Bavafongoul

Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Shawn is .....well.......he's known for his dumbness & ignorance.

If he had the opportunity to spend much time with a good cue-maker,
he might comprehend how the anatomy of a cue and the various
components come together to produce a resonance and vibration
that's distinctly different using different elements, including the most
important variable which is.....weight proportionality.

It is a lost cause trying to educate some people and he's proven this
so many times it is mindboogling he's even still around this website.
 
Shawn Armstrong

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
Bavafongoul said:
Shawn is .....well.......he's known for his dumbness & ignorance.

If he had the opportunity to spend much time with a good cue-maker,
he might comprehend how the anatomy of a cue and the various
components come together to produce a resonance and vibration
that's distinctly different using different elements, including the most
important variable which is.....weight proportionality.

It is a lost cause trying to educate some people and he's proven this
so many times it is mindboogling he's even still around this website.
Click to expand...

Yep. Known for my dumbness and ignorance. I’ve actually built cues. Have you ever even cut wood? Just keep posting your babble about the California Ivory ban. I actually play a drinking game with your posts on weekends. We get together and check out your posts. Every time you say ivory, we take a drink. Ban, we take two. Ivory ban, we need to finish our drinks. It’s a quick way to get pissed on a weekend.
 
Bavafongoul

Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"Amen" and "Alleluiah" To qbilder.

qbilder posted........."The only real test, IMO, would be same cue, same shaft, interchanging joint configurations for the purpose of testing."


Boy oh boy, he is sure right........if you play with a cue that uses a 13mm 3.5 oz piloted shaft that has a brass fiitting that adds weight
and alters the feel versus a 13mm cue shaft with a wood to wood or big pin flat ivory joint weighing 4.2 ozs.....and the only metal in the joint
is the thread.....you darn well can count on the shafts feeling and playing different & yes, both shafts used the same tip......remember that
really hard tips tend to disguise the feel of the hit.......and then there is the weight of the cue butt......and does it have a weight bolt and what's
the weight.....where is it positioned in the cue butt and what about the ferrules. Afterall, ivory ferrules do not play like resin ferrules.....there are
so many factors to consider......even the diameter of the butt & type of cue wrap or was it wrapless.

There are so many variables that affect how a cue will seem to you when you play with it that most players don't understand why a cue will feel
and play differently. Some pool players aren't intrigued with cue-making and a cue is a cue ....two pieces of wood screwed together and they can
play lights out with just about any cue they are given. Those players have consistent mechanics and are just flat out great shooters but even those
folks likely have a favorite cue too and likely aren't even curious why they favor a cue. All that matters to them is it's a cue that they prefer more so
than others and why it's that way doesn't even matter to them.

qbilder was right........any blind test should use cues that are closley identical in specs otherwise it is a flawed test and most pool players I know
don't even undertand that, Heck, from what I've seen, most players can't even state with certainty what their pool cue actually weighs......Obladi Oblada..
 
Shawn Armstrong

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
Bavafongoul said:
qbilder posted........."The only real test, IMO, would be same cue, same shaft, interchanging joint configurations for the purpose of testing."


Boy oh boy, he is sure right........if you play with a cue that uses a 13mm 3.5 oz piloted shaft that has a brass fiitting that adds weight
and alters the feel versus a 13mm cue shaft with a wood to wood or big pin flat ivory joint weighing 4.2 ozs.....and the only metal in the joint
is the thread.....you darn well can count on the shafts feeling and playing different & yes, both shafts used the same tip......remember that
really hard tips tend to disguise the feel of the hit.......and then there is the weight of the cue butt......and does it have a weight bolt and what's
the weight.....where is it positioned in the cue butt and what about the ferrules. Afterall, ivory ferrules do not play like resin ferrules.....there are
so many factors to consider......even the diameter of the butt & type of cue wrap or was it wrapless.

There are so many variables that affect how a cue will seem to you when you play with it that most players don't understand why a cue will feel
and play differently. Some pool players aren't intrigued with cue-making and a cue is a cue ....two pieces of wood screwed together and they can
play lights out with just about any cue they are given. Those players have consistent mechanics and are just flat out great shooters but even those
folks likely have a favorite cue too and likely aren't even curious why they favor a cue. All that matters to them is it's a cue that they prefer more so
than others and why it's that way doesn't even matter to them.

qbilder was right........any blind test should use cues that are closley identical in specs otherwise it is a flawed test and most pool players I know
don't even undertand that, Heck, from what I've seen, most players can't even state with certainty what their pool cue actually weighs......Obladi Oblada..
Click to expand...

Here’s the part you didn’t quote:

“I make big pin flat faced cues. I swapped a cue with John Showman once while we were playing a game, and was blown away at how similar his stainless jointed cue felt & hit to my big pin cue. I could swap cues shot by shot & never skip a beat. From that point forward I haven't had a solid opinion on cue joints other than a good one will secure the two halves together & that's what matters.”

Seems to go against pretty much everything you said in your post.
 
Bavafongoul

Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
SA....your thoughts, opinions and remarks are meaningless and seemingly arcane except to yourself.
You utter absurd remarks more often than a duck likes to quack and not surprisingly, resort to personal
diatribes which has become your hallmark trait on Az. I might become offended if you were a person of
any consequence or remotely interesting. When the petition gets circulated again to ban you, I'll sign.it.
.
 
Shawn Armstrong

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
Bavafongoul said:
SA....your thoughts, opinions and remarks are meaningless and seemingly arcane except to yourself.
You utter absurd remarks more often than a duck likes to quack and not surprisingly, resort to personal
diatribes which has become your hallmark trait on Az. I might become offended if you were a person of
any consequence or remotely interesting. When the petition gets circulated again to ban you, I'll sign.it.
.
Click to expand...

There was a petition circulated to ban me? I missed that one.

Let me know when the second comes up. I’ll make sure they inscribe in in ivory. This way, they can’t send it to you to sign. You know, the CA ivory ban and all.
 
D

ddg45

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
sonny_burnett said:
I have played both. Adams 90s Bushka remake. Meuchi David Howard from early 80's and late 80s Joss.

Loved them all. Bushka was more solid and the others had more feel, with the Joss being the clear winner.

I was just curious as to the technical purposes of each joint?
Click to expand...
I'm not an advanced player like many on this site, but the very first time I ever went to a billiards supply store and tried out different cues side by side, even before I understood the differences in construction, I felt a noticeable difference between a Joss or Pechauer (firm hitting stainless steel joint) and a McDermott (3/8x10 wood to wood joint with an Implex collar) which felt more cushioned. People's preferences vary, but I like the 3/8x10.
 
Kim Bye

Kim Bye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
ddg45 said:
I'm not an advanced player like many on this site, but the very first time I ever went to a billiards supply store and tried out different cues side by side, even before I understood the differences in construction, I felt a noticeable difference between a Joss or Pechauer (firm hitting stainless steel joint) and a McDermott (3/8x10 wood to wood joint with an Implex collar) which felt more cushioned. People's preferences vary, but I like the 3/8x10.
Click to expand...

How do you know that`s not tip hardness, tip diameter, ferrule material or shaft taper?
 
Michael Webb

Michael Webb

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
4 butts all radial screws
Stainless, brass, titanium and titanium with steel sleeve. 1 shaft. All 4 cues hit different. Not just my opinion but numerous -A- to open players. No disrespect but some of you should consider the joint does more than hold the shaft.
 
Kim Bye

Kim Bye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Michael Webb said:
4 butts all radial screws
Stainless, brass, titanium and titanium with steel sleeve. 1 shaft. All 4 cues hit different. Not just my opinion but numerous -A- to open players. No disrespect but some of you should consider the joint does more than hold the shaft.
Click to expand...

That`s no surprise at all. The brass pin must be about 3 times the weight of the Aluminum pin. SS about 25% lighter than the brass pin and the titanium pin about 10-15% lighter again.
I`m not at my shop now, so I can`t actually weigh the pins, so that`s just my ballpark figures.
The aluminum pin is so soft I never use it unless for stuff like a 3 piece jump cue.
The 100% identical test will of course never happen, as every piece of wood is slightly different, but given as close as possible tolerances it`s pretty difficult to tell say an Mezz AXI-P from a Mezz EC7-P both with a WX700 shaft at around 110gr and both with the same Kamui original tip. I did this test here just a few days ago actually.
That said, I would love to hear more about your philosophy about constructing a spliced cue differently depending on the pin :smile:
 
BmoreMoney

BmoreMoney

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I could quite possibly be the person with the least amount of knowledge about cue construction in this thread lol😊. I base my opinion though on two things : 1) real world experience with different types of joints having played hundreds of different cues over the years, 2) common sense. As I have said many times and am very confident in at this point my absolute favorite is wood to wood unpiloted ( I assume this is what is referred to as " flat face "? I believe this gives me the most solid hit while also giving me the most feedback. So, as I said that's thru my experiences. The.next part on not 100% sure about but ot does make sense to me - anytime you have any kind of joint other than wood to wood whether its SS, IV, brass, plastic, whatever, that material is " bonded to the wood in some way. Thru my knowledge in other areas ( outside of pool cues ) you lose something when multiple pieces are used as opposed to a single object. To me that would be feel and solidness, regardless of how much or how little.
 
Michael Webb

Michael Webb

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Kim Bye said:
That`s no surprise at all. The brass pin must be about 3 times the weight of the Aluminum pin. SS about 25% lighter than the brass pin and the titanium pin about 10-15% lighter again.
I`m not at my shop now, so I can`t actually weigh the pins, so that`s just my ballpark figures.
The aluminum pin is so soft I never use it unless for stuff like a 3 piece jump cue.
The 100% identical test will of course never happen, as every piece of wood is slightly different, but given as close as possible tolerances it`s pretty difficult to tell say an Mezz AXI-P from a Mezz EC7-P both with a WX700 shaft at around 110gr and both with the same Kamui original tip. I did this test here just a few days ago actually.
That said, I would love to hear more about your philosophy about constructing a spliced cue differently depending on the pin :smile:
Click to expand...

No you wouldn't. :thumbup:
Who said Aluminum
 
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