Need help with stroke (body alignment)

deraltefritz · Mar 7, 2016

Hello guys,

I've been working on my stance/stroke for about a year now. Went from classical pool stroke to classical (i.e. square on) snooker stance and back, rotated my elbows in/out, moved my hips inside/outside, and so on and so forth. But whatever I do, I can't get rid of accidental unwanted side spin.

What you see in the videos below is my stance as it feels natural and comfortable. It did change a lot from what felt natural to me before attempting to find a good stance/stroke combo. Unfortunately I don't have videos from back then.

This is from behind the shot line.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0FBIrO8Q683V1VBVlZ6Zk9zYkE

And this is from the side of the shot line.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0FBIrO8Q683MWJxV0lFNmhtdzg

What puzzles me is that I seem to pull the butt of the queue slightly to the right on the final backswing, which should lead to unintentional RIGHT hand side, but I constantly get unwanted LEFT hand side. While it may seem like a minor issue on this up-down drill, it's actually more attenuated in a match when I have other things to worry about (position, aiming, thinking shots ahead, etc.).

I would be very grateful if you could give me some hints on what I should change in order to get a true and straight stroke.

Thank you & all the best,
Fritz

plhlolelnlilx · Mar 7, 2016

Your stroke isn't the problem here. You're not a machine so don't expect zero lateral movement like you would see if your joints could only move forward and back.

Your problem lies in the way you're striking the cue ball. You're poking and not pushing the cue ball. Yes, you need to accelerate through the ball but not until just before contacting the tip to the cue ball. Watch closely a few videos of Alex Pagulayan striking the ball. He is a great example of accurately addressing the ball and striking the spot he intends.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

One Pocket John · Mar 7, 2016

deraltefritz said:
Hello guys,

I've been working on my stance/stroke for about a year now. Went from classical pool stroke to classical (i.e. square on) snooker stance and back, rotated my elbows in/out, moved my hips inside/outside, and so on and so forth. But whatever I do, I can't get rid of accidental unwanted side spin.

What you see in the videos below is my stance as it feels natural and comfortable. It did change a lot from what felt natural to me before attempting to find a good stance/stroke combo. Unfortunately I don't have videos from back then.

This is from behind the shot line.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0FBIrO8Q683V1VBVlZ6Zk9zYkE

And this is from the side of the shot line.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0FBIrO8Q683MWJxV0lFNmhtdzg

What puzzles me is that I seem to pull the butt of the queue slightly to the right on the final backswing, which should lead to unintentional RIGHT hand side, but I constantly get unwanted LEFT hand side. While it may seem like a minor issue on this up-down drill, it's actually more attenuated in a match when I have other things to worry about (position, aiming, thinking shots ahead, etc.).

I would be very grateful if you could give me some hints on what I should change in order to get a true and straight stroke.

Thank you & all the best,
Fritz

I'm not an instructor.
As the 2nd poster mentioned there is nothing wrong with your approach to the shot or your stance.
On this particular shot just try to roll the QB and not punch it. Just think to yourself ROLL. You should notice a change in your cue delivery to the QB.
Hitting the exact center of the QB is not easy. One thing you could try is to lay the cue down on the table pointed at where the QB meets the cloth and then slowly bring the cue up to high on the QB and then just roll it.

If there is an instructor in your area he/she could probably get you fixed up in 30 minutes.

John

BeiberLvr · Mar 7, 2016

Of all the beginners (including myself) that have posted videos on their stance, I think yours is one of the best.

Head stays on line as you get down.
Cue is going over the back foot.
I didn't see any twisting of the arm or wrist that could throw the cue off line.

My guess is that you aren't lining up to center ball properly. Possibly a dominant eye issue. One test would be to do the following with the help of a friend.

1. Draw a pencil line using a straight edge or ruler from the short rail (middle diamond) to about 6"-12" past the foot spot.
2. Put the CB on the foot spot.
3. Get down as though you were going to do the up-down drill, but place the tip at the very bottom of the CB so it's touching the cloth.
4. Have your friend pick up the CB, and tell you if the pencil line runs through the center of your tip.

If not, then there's your issue.

FranCrimi · Mar 7, 2016

Hi Fritz,

I can see that you have put a lot of work into your game. I see a couple of things. Not sure which one specifically is related to your stroke issue so I suggest you try the following in this order:

1.) Your stance: Bending both knees is fine, but you have to be careful of bending too low to where you are almost shooting up at the cue ball. That position can restrict your stroke, causing you to shorten your follow through just little bit, but it can be enough to cause you problems. Don't bend your knees so much. Stand slightly taller to allow for your arm to finish it's follow through.

2.) The second is slightly more complicated. Probably due to space limitation, you couldn't video a side shot of yourself that shows your stroking arm, but that would have been better for this evaluation. Based on what I saw, I think you may be shooting pool more with your hands than your arm. It seems that you are opening and closing your hand as you move your arm through the stroke. That often happens with players who play with the pressure point on the first two fingers. That grab you do at impact can possibly cause a twisting motion --- for left handed players --- to the left.

The fix is a change of grip, but it's a difficult change. I recommend a relaxed fist grip with the pressure more on the 3rd and 4th finger and less on the first two. This takes twisting out of the equation. You'd have to turn your entire hand under the cue in order to twist, which you'd feel immediately.

You can do an experiment to see if the problem is those first two fingers. Take them off the cue completely and shoot the up and down the table drill. It will feel terrible, but this is just an experiment. See if the cue ball finishes straight. But adjust your height at the table first.

pooltchr · Mar 7, 2016

I think Fran hit on the two potential problems. Another option for your stance would to be to flex your forward leg, but kick the rear foot straight back. That is another way to bring your head down to the shot.

From the rear view, it appears you may be tightening your grip a bit on your final stroke. Your grip should remain fairly constant (light gentle, more like a cradle than a grip. Think of a hammock)

Overall, your stroke looks very good, A couple of minor adjustments may get the results you are looking for. Keep up the good work

Island Drive · Mar 7, 2016

Creeping Crab

I developed a term years ago called the ''creeping crab''. I had a student that had perfect fundamentals, but before each shot his bridge hand took a forward walk before shot execution. You got that bad habit, (if your too far forward you'll notice more weight on your hand and vise/versa) when pulling the trigger. When you walk up to the shot and set your bridge hand on the table, your body is ''balanced'' and your bridge hand will stabilize your stance, which it is BUT then your hand crawls forward. Your balance is already done when you get set in your stance and you flop your bridge hand on the play surface. This is an easy problem to fix, ''when your down your DONE''. A phrase I created years ago. BUT your bridge hand has a CONSISTENT Habit of taking a walk forward a few inches EVERY time before executing your shot, thus causing the whole body to be out of balance. Seeing that home table, makes me wonder how high the bed is.

rrick33 · Mar 7, 2016

There have been a lot of great observations here and it's possible that one of them may address your issue but I'm seeing something that strikes me as the core of why your not connecting accurately with cue ball and subsequently applying unwanted spin.

You have a noticeable pause in your back swing....much longer than an average pause but don't be disturbed. Buddy Hall had a similar pause length.

The problem is that you haven't achieved Buddy's pure stroke delivery.

Because of the extended pause, you are forced to initiate the delivery from the end of your backswing as opposed to allowing the backswing to transition naturally into the forward delivery....carrying momentum with it.

As a result you have a jab or poking type stroke delivery.

Nearly all of the strokes observed in your videos were delivered with a firm stroke. To generate a firm jab or poke requires a trusting motion from the forearm. The minute you tense the forearm to execute this jab, the muscle tension automatically pulls your arm slightly closer to your body and subsequently pulls the cue stick out of alignment at the moment of delivery.

I believe this is what's causing you to connect poorly and apply unwanted English.

I might suggest that you experiment with your timing and try to develop a more transitional stroke delivery, without the extended pause in your backswing. This will alleviate the jab approach you're currently using and allow you to develop a more pure delivery.

The pause is still an important aspect of the shot but I would suggest you conduct the pause prior to the backswing and allow the momentum of the backswing to naturally flow into the forward delivery.

Once you've developed a pure stroke delivery, it will be much easier to experiment with other types of strokes and timing principles to see how they impact your performance.....should you choose to revisit the use of an extended pause.

ENGLISH! · Mar 8, 2016

I too am not an instructor.

I'd be interested to know how tall are you & at what height is that table.

I don't see you in a very athletic position. I personally would like to see you with a wider base, meaning your feet more apart which would result in not as much knee bend & flex, if that would not be uncomfortable for you.

What Ms. Crimi said about the grip is correct.

As to the unintended side spin, there is a good chance that the issue may be in how you are or are not seeing a straight line as straight. That might be the issue.

A gentleman that goes by genomachino here on AZB can help you find out if you have a problem with that.

Best of Luck Finding Your Road.

deraltefritz · Mar 8, 2016

Guys, what can I say? Amazing feedback!

@plhlolelnlilx:
I'm not sure I fully understand. Always thought one starts the acceleration from all the way back, gradually increasing it just past the cue-ball...

@One Pocket John:
I roll the balls if possible, the reason I went with a somewhat harder stroke here is because striking errors are exaggerated that way.

@BeiberLvr, @ENGLISH!:
Even though my dominant eye is clearly my left one (pointing at something far away, or looking trough a small gap made by both hands, my left eye is always aligned), looking with it over the cue looks wrong. Nevertheless, I tried it once more, but only by a small fraction towards the left eye. The tendency to hit the cue ball on the left side somewhat went away in fact. But the cue still appears a little off-center when i look at it going towards my chin. So I'm still a little unsure whether I'm just compensating my arm's tendency to hit off-center to the left by aligning my center of vision slightly to that side as well. Is there any rule on how much towards the dominant eye one should be going? Will do the pencil test once my wife gets back.

@FranCrimi:
The reason I have my knees bent that much is because the table is a little lower than regulation tables (it's a convertible 7ft dining table with slate). On a normal table, I have my back leg almost straight. Haven't noticed any space issues though, so it might really be just the smaller table. There's a little too much tension if i straighten the back leg too much on my table. Nevertheless I might have overdone the flexing a little, so in the videos below I've tried to flex a little less.

But I think you hit the nail there with me shooting with the wrist instead of the arm. I've tried to keep all fingers on the cue throughout the shot, and that seems to attenuate the unintentional side problem.
Here's the up-down thing, with the side appearing to be equally between left and right, and some shots spot on:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0FBIrO8Q683enQ3MzdlS1prS00/view?usp=sharing

And here's once more from behind. It doesn't look too different, but it certainly feels a lot different in the hand:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0FBIrO8Q683ODNBWVNZd1U1M2s/view?usp=sharing
So you don't think that my wrist is somewhat bent and my forearm not straight enough? Is this looking better?

@pooltchr:
Gripping too tight, I think that's a very common issue? I keep telling myself to hold the cue as lightly as possible, but often I forget about it, especially when focusing too much on the object ball. Does it still look like that in the second batch of videos?

@Island Drive:
I don't know why I do that! But overall the balance feels the same on every shot, so it might just be a weird habbit going into the stroke. My bridge arm appears to be bent the same way every time, so is my shooting arm hanging down the same angle.

@rrick33:
The pause after the backswing, that's what I copied from snooker players. Same with the 4 contact points (grip hand, chest, chin, bridge hand). Don't misnterpretate, I didn't copy it because I think snooker players are superior or anything. Simply because there is much more consistency between different snooker players than there is between pool players. And I needed something to copy, so I went with the snooker guys as I didn't have to pick a single player to copy and could just watch several players trying to figure out the common parts.

I hope I haven't forgotten to reply to anyone, as some of the remarks were made by multiple people.

Again, I cannot stress how much I appreciate all the comments. I thought I'd check back on the weekend and have maybe a post or two, I'm really positively baffled!

Thanks again & all the best,
Fritz

Island Drive · Mar 8, 2016

deraltefritz said:
@Island Drive:
I don't know why I do that! But overall the balance feels the same on every shot, so it might just be a weird habbit going into the stroke. My bridge arm appears to be bent the same way every time, so is my shooting arm hanging down the same angle.

Subtle changes when learning are not as noticeable till your game improves dramatically, remember in pool the little things are magnified once you pull the trigger

When the bridge hand moves forward, the body follows, as does ones core weight. If you were too put a plumb bob in the middle of your chest when you first laid your hand on the table, you think it would still be pointing at the same spot on the floor after your bridge hand took a walk....nope that's impossible. And I did notice, sometimes your hand walks more, other times less. My best recommendation from all your GOOD responses is ta pick one or two and Encorporate them for a few weeks, then another. Don't do em all at the same time, you'll go nutzo. Repetitive habits are easy ta fix, but hard to break, they take time, good luck.

FranCrimi · Mar 8, 2016

Well done Fritz :clapping::clapping:

Your grip is looking much better! As you wrote, it feels much more drastic than it looks. It is a big adjustment in feel and it will take time. Don't give up on it, though. It's worth the change.

ENGLISH! · Mar 8, 2016

I would recommend that you PM genomachino & set up a time for a phone lesson (free) when you can be at a full size table. It sounds very much like you are having the type of issue that he knows very much about & can really help.

The pointing & circle eye tests are virtually useless for pool. I am 100% right eye dominant for those tests, but Gene showed & convinced me beyond doubt that for pool I am left eyed even though I am right handed.

Get in contact with him. It may be the best thing that you ever do for your game.

Best of 'Luck' finding YOUR solutions for your issues.

All the Best Wishes for You & Yours,
Rick

PS Fran Crimi knows what it is all about.

pooltchr · Mar 8, 2016

@pooltchr:
Gripping too tight, I think that's a very common issue? I keep telling myself to hold the cue as lightly as possible, but often I forget about it, especially when focusing too much on the object ball. Does it still look like that in the second batch of videos?

Grip looks much better in the second video!
Steve

Pidge · Mar 9, 2016

Firstly pulling the butt of the cue to the right will have the opposite effect on the tip, meaning the tip will go left because your bridge acts as a pivot.

Normally if a person is adamant that they're cueing straight but still hitting with unintentional side then it's normally a vision issue. But the butt of the cue moving to the right is quite noticeable so it isn't vision errors. From what I saw on the back view you have a very twitchy grip. It's almost like you create the cue speed with a finger flicking action. To me this is causing the unintentional side. Or at least it is playing a part. Try cueing without wrapping any fingers around the cue. Just rest the cue between index and thumb and let the fingers hang naturally without wrapping around. Then hit some balls and notice if the butt is moving as much.

Another issue is the excessive knee bending. You can see when you are in the address position you get lower and lower up until you pull the trigger. This makes your head move, even if it is just a fraction. If you can't lock the back leg then you need to work on a consistent amount of knee bend that doesn't alter once you are down.

The back foot also looks to be slightly off the line of aim from the rear view. The toes aren't even on the line of aim. Try getting the arch of the foot directly on the line of aim. This aids with consistency in terms of setting your alignment and body angles up the same each time.

Finally... Stay down longer after a shot! I know it's just practise but you learn a lot more when you stay down for 2-3 seconds after you've pocketed the ball (or missed). You jumped up really early on the rear view on almost every single shot. It's difficult for someone assessing your issue to see how much the head moves for example, when you raise up instantly after the ball has been struck.

Can I ask.... Does the cue run along your chest?

ENGLISH! · Mar 9, 2016

When one uses the wrist a lot in the stroke the fingers do tend the snatch or catch the cue. I've been that type of player.

It goes to what Fran was saying about the arm movement.

When one is using the wrist there is not always a lot of arm movement. Many would be rather much surprised how much power one can get from a rather small arm movement with firing wrists to 'throw' the cue. If the cue is thrown, it must be caught or let slip.

I've said before, there is not just one type of stroke & hence one's connection to the cue must be coordinated with one's stroke or how one intends to stroke.

Changing one without an associated change can be an issue... or it can be a fix if the two did not match one to the other is the first place.

A full pendulum swing is not the same as a Piston Stroke nor is it the same as a Piston-J Stroke.

Rather many here seem to assume that everyone is using or striving to use a full pendulum swing.

I think that is at times a mistake & assuming so is always a mistake.

I'm NOT directing this toward or about anyone. I'm just pointing it out so that perhaps communications can be more efficient & effective.

I hope ALL will take it in the vein that it IS intended.

Best Wishes to ALL.

PS Many of us agree on very much even if we have some slightly differing thoughts on some matters.

BeiberLvr · Mar 9, 2016

ENGLISH! said:
Rather many here seem to assume that everyone is using or striving to use a full pendulum swing.

Wrong as usual.

Obviously there are instructors here that specialize in teaching the pendulum stroke, but that doesn't mean they assume that everyone wants to use it, or already is using it.

ENGLISH! · Mar 9, 2016

BeiberLvr said:
Wrong as usual.

Obviously there are instructors here that specialize in teaching the pendulum stroke, but that doesn't mean they assume that everyone wants to use it, or already is using it.

Do you know what the phrase "rather many seem to assume" actually means?

Apparently not. Or... you do, but just want to start trouble.

So no, I am NOT wrong here & I am not usually wrong.

But YOU certainly seem to be rather often.

Imac007 · Jul 27, 2018

As a long time snooker player, instructor and now pool enthusiast I have worked my way through the whole restructuring of my entire stance and setup. When I learned, the boxer stance was the norm for snooker. In recent years as I moved to the smaller, lower pool tables, changes were needed. First, I switched to a bigger tip. I kept my snooker butt and added an R360 shaft. Bending down to a significantly lower table without room to anchor a bridge arm proved difficult. The resultant more upright stance meant I was dropping my right side in relationship to the left, in order to bring my cue down to table level. Sometimes the cue would ride under the body and there was an occasional lifting error because the left side lost its anchor. The under body cue travel sometimes got tucked losing the vertical cueing arm. Change beyond a cue was needed.

I adopted the 3 main principles identified by ROS and Jimmy White, step into the shot, cue straight and stay down. Approaching the stay down backwards, by looking at how I would get up, the idea was to short circuit that process. Rather than go through that whole process, the solution discovered is now used. I step up to the shot, then position my "vision center" over the cueing line. While positioning my cue over the aim line I move the other foot slightly forward shoulder width and the bridge finds its home. The shoulder on the bridge side needs to create the anchor. I adjust the bridge arm and hand so the left shoulder can drop to be the anchor. Checking that my cue and vision center are still in place, the cueing arm stays vertical. Dropping the bridge shoulder with a square on stance led by the foot on the cueing line, forces the cue to travel side on away from the body. There is no room under the body for cue travel so it travels beside the torso. The angle created by the plane made by the shoulders, must tilt the torso enough to allow for a vertical cue arm, beside the body. The vision center must stay over the cueing line as the shoulders set the plane. The cueing side, foot, head, bridge and vertical arm are put in place first before the bridge side shoulder drops to lowest possible spot to anchor. There should be a slight forward balance of weight creating an immobilization, making getting up impossible without shifting position first. When the cue is held properly the thumb remains vertical and stays so throughout the shot.
The PSR is briefly -
Step into the shot with my foot closely followed by the vision center.
While air stroking the shaft becomes superimposed on the shot line.
The bridge hand finds its home and its shoulder anchors the stance.
A brief pause checks cue, vertical forearm and aim alignment.
Then the execution triggers, deliver the cue, on line, with the thumb vertical throughout.

Island Drive · Jul 28, 2018

31'' Bed Height

Imac007 said:
As a long time snooker player, instructor and now pool enthusiast I have worked my way through the whole restructuring of my entire stance and setup. When I learned, the boxer stance was the norm for snooker. In recent years as I moved to the smaller, lower pool tables, changes were needed. First, I switched to a bigger tip. I kept my snooker butt and added an R360 shaft. Bending down to a significantly lower table without room to anchor a bridge arm proved difficult. The resultant more upright stance meant I was dropping my right side in relationship to the left, in order to bring my cue down to table level. Sometimes the cue would ride under the body and there was an occasional lifting error because the left side lost its anchor. The under body cue travel sometimes got tucked losing the vertical cueing arm. Change beyond a cue was needed.

I adopted the 3 main principles identified by ROS and Jimmy White, step into the shot, cue straight and stay down. Approaching the stay down backwards, by looking at how I would get up, the idea was to short circuit that process. Rather than go through that whole process, the solution discovered is now used. I step up to the shot, then position my "vision center" over the cueing line. While positioning my cue over the aim line I move the other foot slightly forward shoulder width and the bridge finds its home. The shoulder on the bridge side needs to create the anchor. I adjust the bridge arm and hand so the left shoulder can drop to be the anchor. Checking that my cue and vision center are still in place, the cueing arm stays vertical. Dropping the bridge shoulder with a square on stance led by the foot on the cueing line, forces the cue to travel side on away from the body. There is no room under the body for cue travel so it travels beside the torso. The angle created by the plane made by the shoulders, must tilt the torso enough to allow for a vertical cue arm, beside the body. The vision center must stay over the cueing line as the shoulders set the plane. The cueing side, foot, head, bridge and vertical arm are put in place first before the bridge side shoulder drops to lowest possible spot to anchor. There should be a slight forward balance of weight creating an immobilization, making getting up impossible without shifting position first. When the cue is held properly the thumb remains vertical and stays so throughout the shot.
The PSR is briefly -
Step into the shot with my foot closely followed by the vision center.
While air stroking the shaft becomes superimposed on the shot line.
The bridge hand finds its home and its shoulder anchors the stance.
A brief pause checks cue, vertical forearm and aim alignment.
Then the execution triggers, deliver the cue, on line, with the thumb vertical throughout.

Yes sir....Being 6'6'' gives me allot more angles to work with than someone 5'8''. The frame of the Gold Crown Table allows a person with longer legs to get a proper under table stance. The Diamond tables, with the legs on the corners, traps ya at times.

Need help with stroke (body alignment)

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