This is what happened in my match tonight

This is new to me. Has the 15 point penalty for catching a dropping ball been removed? I have never seen it enforced anyway.

Dave Nelson

Rule Book

Sounds like you need to invest in a rule book.
I can't find the link but there is a PDF of the rules online that you can print. This is the only way to settle any dispute that might come up.
Did you ask at the pool hall if they had a copy of the rules?

Andy

edit:
here is the link for the rules
http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_summary

i don´t know about the rules in your league but at least you kicked his ass.

Thanks. I have a rule book, probably out of date and I don't read it every day.

Dave Nelson

To me friendship is more important then winning a game of pool by any means that you can. Some players will cut your throat to win a game by sharking or calling a stupid foul and not worry about friendship down the road. These type of players give pool a bad name and frankly I can not stomach these type of people.

Click to expand...

the guy sounds like a real drag to play with.... i was playing a guy long ago. i left the cue in the rack and proceeded to put it behind the head string. he INSISTED that the cue went behind the foot string because he thought that the foot was the head. lol.... so we get the fricking rule book out and the book was WRONG. it too had the head and foot reversed. then the guy really thought i didn't understand the game. i just stopped playing with him. and don't get me started on playing in dives with "bar table rules"! oh, the humanity..... it was all i could do to keep from crashing my truck through the wall of that place upon leaving.

You sure surprised me . . .

I’ve always said and still believe that not only are you a great pool player, but you are also a great ambassador for the sport. Your genuine love of the game and willingness to share your knowledge is what I respect about you most, because that’s how I feel too.

But let’s get the facts straight:

1) “Last season during our 14.1 match he made an opening break shot and failed to drive two balls to the rail. I told him that it was -2 & I wanted him to re rack & do it again. He tells me: no that is not the rule and that I have to accept the table as is. We go back n worth. I let him have his way. The next day he apologizes to me with an e-mail.”

Not true. That was not the situation.

We were in mid game and I committed three consecutive fouls. I knew I suffered an 18 point penalty and was forced to break the full rack of 15 balls. Before I broke, we debated on whether or not the “opening” break requirements needed to be met after committing three consecutive fouls. I didn’t think so, you didn’t know for sure, so I broke not worrying about driving two plus the cue to a rail. I might have actually drove two plus the cue to the rail, but can’t remember for sure. The next day you email me the rule and I also looked it up and admitted to my mistake.

You letting me “have my way” didn’t change the fact that I still incurred the 18 point foul. Not abiding by the break requirements probably just changed the safety battle a little.

2) “Two weeks ago. I let him borrow a VHS tape (Grady Mathews Straight Pool) he brings it tonight to our match and ask to keep it another week. I say sure.”

It was nine days. If you would like, I will stop at Billiard Den on the way to Click’s to drop off your tape this Thursday.

3) “We then start our match. I had to take the opening break. I make a legal break driving two balls to the rail but I scratched in the corner pocket. As the cue ball was falling very slowly into the pocket. I catch it.
He tells me that it is a 16 point foul. I say; no it isn't and that they changed that rule. I do remember talking about this comment on a Post a while back and being corrected by a few here on AZ about the new rule. Back then, I too thought it was a 16 point foul.”

The rules of our league are decided by the league manager and are the BCA General Rules of Pocket Billiards and BCA World Standardized Rules: 14.1 with a few exceptions, none of which are related to the topic here. Attached is the straight pool league document, created by the league manager, which indicates the rules of the league (page 4). He also specifically points out the 16 point foul due to catching a ball headed for a pocket (on page 5) and goes further to cite the BCA rule, 6.75. Here’s the link to BCA rule 6.75, http://www.bca-pool.com/play/tournaments/rules/rls_141.shtml. In fact, the league manager walked in just minutes after it happened. He confirmed that it was a 16 point foul.

4) “I tell him that this is a friendly match and that rule is out dated. He tells me no. I asked him if he remembers last season that I let him get away with his opening break mistake. He tells me were playing by the rules. He tells me this is a 16 point foul, that was only a 2 point foul. I state that the 2 point foul could on lead to an extra 16 points with another break etc. He insisted”

I don’t remember a conversation referring to a two point foul. My foul last season was three consecutive fouls which I knew very well came with a 18 point penalty.

I don’t exactly know what you’re trying to say about a 2 point foul leading to an extra 16 points . . . I guess if I broke 8 successive times without satisfying the break requirements each time, then yes, it would add up to 16 points . . .

I didn’t insist. I actually felt bad about the whole thing. After going back and forth, even after the rules and the league manager confirmed the proper action, you were the one that decided to accept the 16 point foul and not discuss it further.

5) “I told him that I will take the -16 & that I am going to "Kick his Ass"
First rack was 10 to 4 his favor. I then ran 42 with a safe and followed it with a: 15, 20, 21, & a 37. By the 7th inning I had him 117 to 24 with the 16, it would of been 133
It ended up 150 to 62 with many safeties and a 22 inning game.”

You did kick my ass. Nice job. I knew you would. But a few details are wrong:
I was up 14 to 0 in the first rack, made the break shot and missed for a score of 15 to -16.
You ran 42 and fouled. Your other inning scores are correct.

See attached score sheet. I already emailed it to you once, immediately after our match. I would have thought that you would have reviewed the score sheet before posting incorrect details.

6) “Oh, here's another thing. During the match. I scratched. I took the cue out of the pocket and rolled it into the kitchen area. He gets up to the table after talking and starts to shoot the cue where it was laying at a ball by the corner pocket in the kitchen. Right before he shoots it. I tell him that he is making a mistake and that he needs to shoot down table. I just wanted to show him that I was not as low as he was.”

Nice compliment . I have also indicated to my opponent that they had ball in hand in the kitchen when they forgot. However, one time my opponent didn’t tell me and I did shoot from a bad position.
It’s too bad you think of my as “low.” I did nothing wrong. I simply played by the rules. (It's starting to get ugly...)

Continuing to your next post . . .

7) “LOL........ I did. He pulled up the rules on his cell phone but they were from 2006 and I have been informed that in 2008 that rule was changed. Why did he not pull up the rules during our first match when he made an illegal break? Maybe he did not have that phone four months ago......”

Some WPA rule may have indeed changed in 2008. However, the rules of our league are well documented and confirmed by the league manager as stated in 3).
I did not have my iPhone when we played our match on July 12, 2009, six months ago.

8) “BUT: my point is. No matter what the rule is. This guy & I was having a friendly league match. This was no major tournament. We had no Ref watching the match. To me friendship is more important then winning a game of pool by any means that you can. Some players will cut your throat to win a game by sharking or calling a stupid foul and not worry about friendship down the road. These type of players give pool a bad name and frankly I can not stomach these type of people.
From now on I will not give him or players like him any advise on how to play the game. Let them find answers some where else.”

(It's officially ugly...)

Friendly, yes, but still a league match. If I made a bad hit in our 8-ball match last week, I would expect for you to take ball in hand as the rule dictates. I wouldn’t say, “hey this is a friendly game, just play it in position . . .”

I’m not going to wait for a major tournament before I start playing by the rules.

You’re right. A ref wasn’t watching, but we weren’t debating the fact that you caught the cue ball.

Friendship is definitely more important to me than winning a game. In fact, I don’t mind loosing at all especially if I know I played my best game and my opponent played better. If I played poorly and lost and should have won, then I would be disappointed in myself, but never angry at my opponent. He didn’t do anything wrong. If I were to lose the lag and you went 150 and out, I would be happy for you for playing a perfect game! As I’m sure you would be for me.

I would not cut your throat to win a game. I do think sharking is unsportsmanlike and have played and tolerated many of those kinds of players before. It is bad for the sport.

9) “Instead, I will pound them when we play each other. “

I expect nothing less than your best game when we play. If you’re going to lay down, then I don’t want to play you.



You know you could probably spot me 50 in a race to 150 and still win the majority of the time, so I don’t know why you would get so upset over 16 balls. If anybody should be upset it should be me at having to defend my position of playing by the rules. I have only played 14.1 league for four seasons over the last 15 months. If I’m not mistaken, you have played for 10 – 20 years and have even won some national event.

During my first league match back in October of 2008, an experienced player was trying to convince me that if I accidentally touch a ball it would be a 16 point foul because he thought that it fell under the description of a “deliberate foul.” Although I was new to the game and the league, I was confident in my position because I read and remembered the rules. After he reviewed the rules, he still argued. He then called the league manager and the manager told him it was just a one point foul. Doesn’t anyone know the rules that govern their league???

I was really surprised when I read your posts, Mike. After the incident, we went on to play our match while talking, laughing and having a good time for almost two hours. You didn’t appear to be so upset to write the things you did and go so far as to personally attack my character. I would have never expected that from you. I hope we can move past this and continue our friendship.

Jim

Would it not be a good idea if the ruling body would issue a rule book in loose leaf form so that when one rule is changed one could replace the relevant page(s) rather than have to buy a complete new book?

Dave Nelson

i was surprised to read that you didn't think that you had to run two balls and the cue to the rail on a penalty break. what on earth would make you think that? that's the whole point of the penalty.

"Good" is relative...

Dave Nelson said:

Would it not be a good idea if the ruling body would issue a rule book in loose leaf form so that when one rule is changed one could replace the relevant page(s) rather than have to buy a complete new book?

Dave Nelson

Click to expand...

Good for us, yes. But not good for the ruling body, who is trying to make money selling new rule books.

Looking forward to our next match

14-1StraightMan said:

Jim, I am sorry that I hurt your feelings by posting my posts. I was upset with you and I still can't believe you called that foul on me.
You say that I was not sure of the rule on the break after the 3 point foul. Not true, I was sure. You got that wrong. I sill can not remember if it was the opening break or a 3 foul situation. In any case, I do know the rule after a 3 point foul that the opening break applies.
The main thing that really upset me. We were talking & laughing about stuff even as I was up to the table taking that opening break shot. I caught that ball and was talking to you at the same time. I walked over to you as you were walking to me and handed you the cue ball out of friendship. You then started that 16 point foul stuff. You completely took me by surprise and I was taken back from what you were saying to me. If I would of known that you would of been so picky about that. I would of never caught the cue. My mistake, yes my mistake by thinking that we had a friendly game going. To me catching that cue is totally different from other fouls on the table during the game. It does not affect the position of other balls etc. It is just different.
Yes, you are right. If that is a rule (which I do not believe it is any longer) Then it is a rule and if your going to call it on me. Then I have to accept it and I did after we went back and forth.
I do have Herman (the director) looking into this rule to see if it has been up dated. I too have looked into it and this is what I have found: The BCA has adopted the WPA's rules in 2008. It is no longer a 16 point foul. It is "Unsportsmanlike Conduct" the penalty is whatever the Referee decides. We had no referee. http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_summary (paragraphs 6.6, 6.16, and 4.11.).
From now on. I know that when we have to play each other, every rule counts. Lets remember there should be no talking & laughing between us and that the player who is not up at the table has to be seated in there chair. Yes, we need to play by the rules.
I want you to know that I will act towards you like I have always acted with friendship & respect. When we play, it's by the rules.
Mike

Click to expand...

I accept your apology. Though it sounds like you're still a bit sour . . .

My foul last season was a three foul situation. I can send you the score sheet if you'd like. The way I remembered it was that I didn't know for sure if I had to drive two plus the cue to a rail and I thought you said you thought I had to but weren't positive. If you said you knew for sure and told me that at the time, I know I wouldn't have doubted you. In any case, I admitted I was wrong.

As unfortunate as it is when these rare debates occur, it inevitably leads to me reading every rule to better understand the issue. In doing so, I've learned many things. Listed below are just a few:

1) When I 3-fouled last season, you had the option of playing the table in position or racking and forcing me to break according to the opening break requirements based on our league rules. WPA rules doesn't give you that option. The offending player must perform an opening break and satisfy the requirements.

2) (9-Ball rule) WPA states that a player that intentionally positions balls when racking for his opponent should receive a warning (by the ref) for the first time and an unsportsmanlike conduct if he continues. Good thing a ref isn't presiding when I'm spotting my opponent the 7 or 8 and I choose to rack it behind the 1 to minimize his chances of making it on the break.

3) WPA has a dress code. No jeans. No sneakers. No T-shirts. Tucked in collared or polo shirts. I have not found a dress code in the rules for our 14.1 league.

4) There is no rule I have found regarding talking or laughing during a match. There is mention of "distracting your opponent" under the Unsportsmanlike Conduct foul in WPA, but a ref must be present to make a judgement call. When we were talking and laughing between turns, I never took it as an intent to distract me. I assume you felt the same.

5) WPA requires the non-shooting player to remain in his seat. Our league rules do not address this issue.


I'm not saying I have anything against the WPA rules, but they do seem to be written for professional competitions and not for local league play.

You and others have mentioned how BCA has adopted the WPA rules. Can you provide me with a link indicating this. I have been unable to find such evidence. I'm not saying it's not true. I just can't find it documented anywhere.

Jim

Still learning . . .

sausage said:

i was surprised to read that you didn't think that you had to run two balls and the cue to the rail on a penalty break. what on earth would make you think that? that's the whole point of the penalty.

Click to expand...

It's never come up before in one of my matches. I've never seen it when watching pro matches. And when I originally read the 3-foul rule, and didn't have to apply it for almost a year, I mistakenly remembered it to mean ball in hand in the kitchen shooting at a full rack of 15 balls with the only requirement being a good hit.

We have a "by the rules to the death" guy in our club. We all hate playing him. He watches EVERY DAMN MOVE his opponent makes when they play, even on friendly non-league games, and call foul whenever he sees one.

Position the cueball with the tip of the cue? FOUL! "You can use the shaft or the ferrule, but not the tip!" he says.

Play one-handed (because the ball is hanging by the pocket and I'm too lazy to go get the crutch)? FOUL!

The balls look frozen? He'll whip out a cigarette rolling paper and see if he can slide it in between.

But the last one he pulled on me, and which prompted me to tell him to play with someone else from now on, is when he called foul on my tie touching one of the balls. I had just left work and was wearing a tie and a loosely fitting shirt. During the game, each time I leaned on the table, crouched and watched intently between the balls and my belly, which annoyed the living daylight out of me. Finally, when he called foul, I unscrewed and left. I told him I wouldn't play him again, except for league matches, during which I'd be wearing spandex cycling clothes.

Remember, I'm not talking about "official" games, just friendly games. When I play games like that, more often than not, if my opponent knocks a ball inadvertantly, I'll replace the ball and tell him to carry on. Especially if the guy is good and the foul would end a great inning that I enjoy watching

My last post too

Sorry for hurting your feelings.

I wasn't rambling, just pointing out some interesting rule differences.

They might not be the latest and greatest rules or the WPA rules, but I followed the rules as dictated by our league manager. I would suspect the forum would agree that I simply called a foul based on our league rules. Whether or not people choose to call fouls is their choice.

I'm done.

9BallJim said:

You and others have mentioned how BCA has adopted the WPA rules. Can you provide me with a link indicating this. I have been unable to find such evidence. I'm not saying it's not true. I just can't find it documented anywhere.

Jim

Click to expand...

Jim, the BCA did, indeed, adopt the new (WPA) rules in January, 2008. If you'll go to the BCA web site and look at their rules (http://home.bca-pool.com/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=54), you'll see that they are the WPA rules (they're even linked to the WPA pages).

It sounds like some time before 1/1/2008, your straight-pool league decided to use the BCA rules. I'm guessing that your league director was unaware of it when the changes were made on 1/1/2008. Now that this issue has arisen, perhaps your director will bring your league rules up to date.

Don't see links

AtLarge said:

Jim, the BCA did, indeed, adopt the new (WPA) rules in January, 2008. If you'll go to the BCA web site and look at their rules (http://home.bca-pool.com/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=54), you'll see that they are the WPA rules (they're even linked to the WPA pages).

It sounds like some time before 1/1/2008, your straight-pool league decided to use the BCA rules. I'm guessing that your league director was unaware of it when the changes were made on 1/1/2008. Now that this issue has arisen, perhaps your director will bring your league rules up to date.

Click to expand...

They do appear to be the WPA rules. However, the link to the page you refer to above has links to pdfs for each section and not to any part of the wpa-pool.com site.

I actually interested in finding an archived news posting say, "BCA is now adopting WPA rules effective 1/1/2008."

You're right. Although I have only been in the league for the last four seasons, it has existed for 20. We average about three season per year; so it's been around for about seven years.

Perhaps he will bring our rules up to date. I would prefer to play by the most recent and/or most commonly accepted rules.

Thanks