ABIA - what do you think?

Dartman

Well-known member
Silver Member
Where's the list of certified installers?

Who did the certifying?

Who certified the certifier?

Why pay a monthly fee to buy at wholesale?

Why has the emphasis of ABIA changed from certifying installers to selling cloth?

Speaking of which - compare the cloth on these 2 sites and tell me it's not the same -

http://dltbilliards.com/accessories.php?category=cloth

http://www.icbilliardcloth.com/billiard_cloth.html

Why did Mike Serra and MBS back out of their deal with ABIA?

Why no mention of ABIA on Seybert site?

How does this fit in? http://installgurus.com/

How many installers do you see listed here? http://dltbilliards.com/installers.php?option=find

Scam?
 

PoolTable911

AdvancedBilliardSolutions
Silver Member
I count 26 "certified" companies - including our very own Pat O

So Pat, who certified you? (like that would be necessary) :confused:

I sent the required information to the ABIA and they call my business certified. I was all for this organization in the beginning. Until I could not get answers as to who is the ABIA and if it is a nonprofit organization. I now have doubts that it is what they claim to be. As for the cloth, I never received a cut so I was unable to comment on it.
 

Club Billiards

Absolute Billiard Service
Silver Member
I sent the required information to the ABIA and they call my business certified. I was all for this organization in the beginning. Until I could not get answers as to who is the ABIA and if it is a nonprofit organization. I now have doubts that it is what they claim to be. As for the cloth, I never received a cut so I was unable to comment on it.

Weren't you one of the first to request it???

4x
 

Dartman

Well-known member
Silver Member
Bellevue. Portland & Vancouver - the 3 registered addresses for the ABIA, IC Billiard Cloth & Install Gurus websites are in close proximity.
Coincidence or the same hand in your pocket?
 

Dartman

Well-known member
Silver Member
and now the latest

IMPORTANT INFORMATION FOR ABIA MEMBERS:

The Billiard essentials program has been cancelled due to excessive complaints about the process from ABIA members.

TO REPLACE THE PROGRAM:
All ABIA members now are able to place their cloth orders by telephone starting today. The pricing has changed from $34.99 / 8 ft. cut to $45.00 / 7 & 8 ft. cut. 9 ft cuts are now available at $57.00 / cut. NO PARTICIPATION REQUIRED. This is open to all ABIA members regardless of status.
 

Mr. Bond

Orbis Non Sufficit
Gold Member
Silver Member
A gentleman I know fairly well is listed on the ABIA site as a "certified installer", so I called him up today to see what I could find out about the certification process.

He said he filled out his application and provided the required information - and sent it to them via email. (and payment of course)

Since then he has not spoken to, and has not been contacted by anyone in person. In other words, he has no idea who actually reviewed and verified his info. He said that he assumed it was "the board" that approved him.

So he was basically just "given" the certified status without any kind of actual demonstration or even a vague discussion of his abilities. And again, he has no name or even a contact person with whom to discuss it.

I told him that while I like "the idea" of certification, I was concerned that he might be getting duped.

He has not purchased or used any of their cloth, and cannot verify that any customers have been referred to him because of the ABIA.
 

Club Billiards

Absolute Billiard Service
Silver Member
IMPORTANT INFORMATION FOR ABIA MEMBERS:

The Billiard essentials program has been cancelled due to excessive complaints about the process from ABIA members.

TO REPLACE THE PROGRAM:
All ABIA members now are able to place their cloth orders by telephone starting today. The pricing has changed from $34.99 / 8 ft. cut to $45.00 / 7 & 8 ft. cut. 9 ft cuts are now available at $57.00 / cut. NO PARTICIPATION REQUIRED. This is open to all ABIA members regardless of status.

Which tells me the program has been cancelled due to lack of interest and profit, and now we are able to pay more for the cloth than we were previously not interested in paying.
 

Mr. Bond

Orbis Non Sufficit
Gold Member
Silver Member
fyi: I also sent an email to ABIA with some very specific questions. we'll see how it goes.
 

Mr. Bond

Orbis Non Sufficit
Gold Member
Silver Member
I'm in the middle of an email conversation with "someone" from ABIA.....and the responses so far are pretty much just as ridiculous as you might have expected....I don't know why I am surprised, but I am.

more to come....
 

Dartman

Well-known member
Silver Member
I'm in the middle of an email conversation with "someone" from ABIA.....and the responses so far are pretty much just as ridiculous as you might have expected....I don't know why I am surprised, but I am.

more to come....

What could you possibly be surprised about? :grin:
 

Cuephoric

1hole anyone?
Silver Member
When I first responded to them to see what they were all about, answered a few questions, got a certificate emailed to show my ABIA pride or something. Will have to see if I saved the email or not. They sent an email looking for qualified individuals to certify their members. Their standards were so low (Basically-tell us why you think you would be a good choice, and can you put together a pool table. How long have you been able to put together pooltables)that I responded with a few questions. After I questioned them in return about certifiers and certification, and various questions about both, I got the runaround enough that I stopped responding except to tell them what I really thought about their group and ideas. LOL Wonder if that's why I didn't make the cuts anymore!:eek:
 

Mr. Bond

Orbis Non Sufficit
Gold Member
Silver Member
Had a good laff yet today?


On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 7:39 PM
ABIA general contact

Name: Mr. Bond
Comments: Who exactly is the founder and/or director of this organization?
Who checks credentials for certifications?
Who are your certifiers for technicians?
What exactly does a tech applicant have to demonstrate to get certified?
Is this a non-profit organization?


________________________________________________

From: ABIA Installers Association <installersabia@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: ABIA general contact
Date: Thursday, November 4, 2010, 7:39 PM

Please see the following information that is available for the public to view on the official ABIA website.


If you have any further questions please don't hesitate to ask again. It has been copied and pasted from the website so you won't even have to go there. Unfortunately we won' t be able to read it for you as well, that you will have to do on your own.

------
History and direction of the ABIA
Mission Statement ~ Dedicated to establishing the credibility and professionalism of the billiard installation industry. The ABIA will always strive to provide support to members through discounts on necessary materials, benefits and the overall promotion of billiard installers and their trade to the customer.

History ~ Originally created in 2009 by small billiard service companies with a vision of bringing billiard mechanics and small stores together to achieve discounts on necessary materials for the trade and to set standards for billiard table installations and the companies working in the industry through official certification. The ABIA was founded on the idea to remain independent and self sufficient without a need to depend on any organization or outside influences for it's success.

About the ABIA and why it works ~ The two goals of the ABIA are to
raise standards in the billiard industry and to obtain discounts for members from distribution companies serving the industry.

The ABIA membership is free and is member run by volunteers and aggressively works to obtain discounts and enforce billiard company certification for members. All important decisions that come to face the ABIA are put in the hands of it's hundreds of members for opinions and input. Participating members who choose to get involved in these important decisions may have their voices heard through their input and the resulting choices are the outcome.

The ABIA has achieved several key benefits for members that no other organization in our industry can compete with. The main reason has to be cited as it has no restrictions. The ABIA does not answer to a board of directors and has only one group to please, the ABIA members themselves. The organization is run by volunteers who operate small businesses in the industry so the people running the organization have nothing to personally benefit or to lose by decisions made by the group as a whole.

Typically trade organizations are run by a group of powerful industry heads who make up a board of directors, these are the key people serving the industry so the direction of the organization generally may not run in the benefit of it's members but in the benefit of it's board of directors since many of them own or manage the companies serving the industry. They offer weak benefits to members while advertising their businesses and taking full advantage of the privileges of their positions. This is an example of a self serving political organization where the people on top continue to grow at the expense of it's members who make the contributions to the association.

The ABIA policy is to continue to be flexible, adaptable and
aggressive for it's members and all benefits and certifications are specifically designed, planned and researched with the member in mind and will never become burdened with restrictive policies or self serving interests of larger suppliers or distributors. The installer, mechanic and billiard store are the life's blood of this industry and until this time have not been represented or recognized as the most important group in the industry. The strength of the ABIA will bring it's members of mechanics, retail stores and installers to be recognized as just that.

__________________________________

On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 8:02 PM, Mr. Bond wrote:

Unfortunately the information you have offered does not answer any of the questions I have asked. So, to be a little more clear, I will restate the questions and afford you the opportunity to offer honest accurate answers.

1. What is the name of the president or founder of this organization?

2. What is the name of the person or persons who checks credentials for certifications?

3. What is the name or names of the certifier(s) for technicians?

4. What exactly does a tech applicant have to demonstrate to get certified?

5. Is this a non-profit organization, or a standard for profit corporation?

6. Is the discounted cloth being sold by a member of ABIA, or is the cloth seller a completely non-related, non-member entity?

7. Who are you? (the person answering this email)

Mr. Bond

____________________________

From: ABIA Installers Association <installersabia@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: ABIA general contact

To: Mr. Bond
Date: Thursday, November 4, 2010, 9:26 PM

Thank you again for your concerns.

The formation of this organization sparked a large number of attacks and threats from the manufacturers and groups like the BCA who saw installers seeking discounts as a threat to their power structure.

The identity of the founders of the organization is clearly stated in the prior email. Their identity is to remain confidential to protect them from any retribution that may come to their businesses from distributors in the industry.

On that note the organization is run by ALL of it's members and all staff members are volunteers.

There are currently no technical certifications taking place, the certification process at this point only proves the certified company has insurance to run a business and a local business licence or is a registered business.

The cloth is sold by a distributor in Los Angeles who stepped up to support our organization. They are Big D's Billiards, the rest of the distributors have pulled their discounts due to their inability to gain control over the ABIA.

Technical specifications for certification will be determined by the members in the future.

Thank you,
ABIA Staff

________________________________

On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 9:37 PM, Mr. Bond wrote:

As I fully expected, you have once again blatantly avoided giving me honest up-front answers to some very simple questions. You are in fact too gutless to even offer up your own name, position and/or qualifications.

Are you really naive enough to expect that people will trust and believe in the ABIA without knowing the name of even ONE PERSON who is associated with it? You might want to seriously rethink your P.R. policy.

When I initially contacted you, it was hard for me to believe that you'd have anything to hide, or any reason to hide. But unfortunately for you and the ABIA, you have just verified everyone's suspicions to be correct. You are hiding.

So as it stands right now, your organization is nothing short of a complete and utter waste of time, and is a dark brown spot of shame to the entire industry.

What you and your imaginary "hundreds of members" are failing to realize is that you will NEVER gain or retain credibility and respect in this industry by hiding your identity and qualifications. Not to mention the fact that your website is a grammatical trainwreck. You should have spent the first $100 you stole to hire an editor.

But just so you know, I am not a supplier, distributor, or installer. But this IS my industry and my lifelong passion. Therefore, I WILL defend it vigorously, and will be sharing this information, or distinct lack of, with all of my friends and associates who ARE suppliers, distributors and mechanics - AND - with everyone who is listed as "certified" on your website. Most assuredly they will be disappointed in your lack of professionality and disclosure. It's called shooting yourself in the foot.

Best of luck,
Mr. Bond.


______________________

From: ABIA Installers Association <installersabia@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: ABIA general contact
To: Mr. Bond
Date: Friday, November 5, 2010, 7:23 AM

Mr Bond,

Thank you once again for your comments.

Had you approached this subject initially with an attitude other than we owe you something we would have gladly given you information.

Now that is funny. The questions I asked initially had no attitude whatsoever, implied or otherwise. To use that as an excuse for not disclosing who you are is a sad and transparent ploy. Lie to someone who is actually stupid enough to believe it.

If you want information on this organization, contact the BCA. That is if they will even talk to you about the subject.

Rather than answer simple questions about who you are, you are suggesting I contact a different and completely unrelated entity? Seriously?

The ABIA remains the way it does at this point due to the tremendous amount of people who heard of it and wanted to take control of the organization. It is unfortunate but during the next few days you will see a number of people who are in charge of the decisions and direction of the ABIA being announced.

Unfortunate to disclose who you are? Wow. To think that people will pay some invisible entity, with no accountability, or verifiable credentials is absolutely absurd. And by the way, to ask who you are has NOTHING to do with attempting to control anything or anyone. But I suppose you can believe what you want. Most people do.

Here's a clue Einstein. Your corporate records are PUBLIC. We know who is responsible for the establishment of the organization. My questions were, as I stated before, to afford you the opportunity to prove that the ABIA is actually under the direction of someone who should and could be respected and trusted. But again, as I already mentioned, you have shown us all that hiding and dodging questions is more important than being honest and respectable.


As for your attacks, your frustration is normal, don't think it's the first time anyone ever made an attack or threat to the members of this organization.

Dont flatter yourself. I was actually trying to defend you by providing all the curious people with some tangible information. So what do you do ? Duck and cover. Nice job.

These come daily from all areas of the industry and this is exactly the reason you feel the organization is "hidden". If you received the threats and attacks from the major heads in the industry you would as well not want to speak with them, it only fuels the fire.

These questions come to you EVEN FROM YOUR OWN MEMBERS. These are not "attacks", these are businessmen and women who want to know who they paid - and under what authority they can claim to be experts in the industry. Its more than sad that you won't even tell your own members.

And notice that you still didnt mention your own name. It's pretty clear that you are afraid of people finding out that you ARENT qualified to represent the entire industry, otherwise there would be no problem at all with telling the public who you are.

I'm not generally a negative person but I have to say, you and your association have some serious issues. Its no wonder so many companies dont want anything to do with you. You made your bed, have fun sleeping in it.


Thank you,
ABIA Staff
_______________________


priceless I tell you. effing priceless !
ROFL
 

Cuephoric

1hole anyone?
Silver Member
That deserves a boatload of rep- coming when I can rep you again!
Thanks for the legwork and time to verify what we already suspected- I'm still amazed that they are even still trying.lol
 

scruffy1

New member
Silver Member
Thank you Mr. Bond for addressing this. It is VERY important to know who we are dealing with in the industry.

I apologize if you have already posted this but just so we can properly thank you, What is your name,i assume it it not Mr.Bond? also,how are you working in this field currently.

Thank you again,

John Burns
 

Mr. Bond

Orbis Non Sufficit
Gold Member
Silver Member
Thank you Mr. Bond for addressing this. It is VERY important to know who we are dealing with in the industry.

I apologize if you have already posted this but just so we can properly thank you, What is your name,i assume it it not Mr.Bond? also,how are you working in this field currently.

Thank you again,

John Burns

You're very welcome John (and cuephoric)

I dont normally derive pleasure from "calling people out"...but....if there is one thing I cant stand, its a snake in the grass.

My name really is Mr. Bond (D.B. Bond) - but I prefer to maintain at least a modicum of privacy, so I try to avoid using first names online. But at the same time, I don't really have anything to hide. So if you want, you can PM me and I'll give you any information you'd like.

I grew up in and around the business of billiards. And at one point I also built, flipped, and restored tables. (Ken was one of my suppliers)
But currently, history and research is my drug of choice, so this is my baby: www.chicagobilliardmuseum.org ...and I'm damn proud of it.

(that reminds me, I have a Schulenburg company profile I've been meaning to send you)

I know that technically I don't qualify as a mechanic or installer anymore, so I apologize for tromping all over your forum. But oh well. I'm pretty sure that I do more good than harm when I come calling :grin:
 

scruffy1

New member
Silver Member
You're very welcome John (and cuephoric)

I dont normally derive pleasure from "calling people out"...but....if there is one thing I cant stand, its a snake in the grass.

My name really is Mr. Bond (D.B. Bond) - but I prefer to maintain at least a modicum of privacy, so I try to avoid using first names online. But at the same time, I don't really have anything to hide. So if you want, you can PM me and I'll give you any information you'd like.

I grew up in and around the business of billiards. And at one point I also built, flipped, and restored tables. (Ken was one of my suppliers)
But currently, history and research is my drug of choice, so this is my baby: www.chicagobilliardmuseum.org ...and I'm damn proud of it.

(that reminds me, I have a Schulenburg company profile I've been meaning to send you)

I know that technically I don't qualify as a mechanic or installer anymore, so I apologize for tromping all over your forum. But oh well. I'm pretty sure that I do more good than harm when I come calling :grin:

That would be great! Thank you for the background. Your contributions are DEFINITELY appreciated!
 
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