APA screwed our very own sleinen out of a national championship

JessEm

AzB Goldmember
Silver Member
If you don't know the tables in your region, sure. But APA has come up with a tool LOs can use to distinguish these tables and assign different table factors to them. A good LO knows the tables in his/her region and has already done most of that work.

Handicaps that DON'T consider a table factor are also skewed. For example, the handicaps of players who play on generous equipment will be closer, in general, than those of players who play on tougher equipment (good players will post a little better score but weaker players can post a lot better score). For that reason, it's a flaw to consider only how two players do against each other without considering equipment when calculating relative skill levels. This is why the better player in a match-up wants to play on the toughest table possible.

I was going to say, table conditions IS a variable that CAN be accounted for in determining SL, but you beat me to it.

Again, point being they need a better system for ranking players properly BEFORE tournaments, instead of ranking-up on the spot and effectively DQ-ing people and entire teams, just because, in someone's arbitrary opinion, they're "playing too well". Most people participating in tournaments sacrifice time and energy to do so. If this only happened once in a while, it would be one thing, but it's the norm at APA events. What happened in Vegas before the finals is unfortunate and it's a black spot, whatever the circumstances, but it's just indicative of widespread problems people have with the APA. Namely their arbitrary SL rating system.
 

APA Operator

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was going to say, table conditions IS a variable that CAN be accounted for in determining SL, but you beat me to it.

Again, point being they need a better system for ranking players properly BEFORE tournaments, instead of ranking-up on the spot and effectively DQ-ing people and entire teams, just because, in someone's arbitrary opinion, they're "playing too well". Most people participating in tournaments sacrifice time and energy to do so. If this only happened once in a while, it would be one thing, but it's the norm at APA events. What happened in Vegas before the finals is unfortunate and it's a black spot, whatever the circumstances, but it's just indicative of widespread problems people have with the APA. Namely their arbitrary SL rating system.

You say it's a problem, but unless someone has a better solution (and no, saying "do better" is not a solution) it will be that way. I've found over the years that most of those to whom this happens deserve it.
 

JessEm

AzB Goldmember
Silver Member
You say it's a problem, but unless someone has a better solution (and no, saying "do better" is not a solution) it will be that way.

Not having a solution doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

Introducing FargoRate has been suggested... I suggested removing win percentage from the formula, as it's highly subjective due to disparity in competition levels from league to league...

...most of those to whom this happens deserve it.

Based on any number of possible personal biases.
 

jrctherake

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You say it's a problem, but unless someone has a better solution (and no, saying "do better" is not a solution) it will be that way. I've found over the years that most of those to whom this happens deserve it.

I got a better system. Most won't like it and wouldn't participate on account of it but, here it is:

Remove all handicapping
Up the entry fees
Stop giving trophies
Start giving cash (collected from qualifying tournaments)
Make everyone pay their own way to tournaments

I could go on but, I already know 99% don't like it already.
 

madhatter44

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
apa explains what occurred

Good afternoon everyone,


I wanted to take a few moments to clarify a couple of things for people who had heard about a team from the Hudson Valley which was disqualified in the 9-Ball World Championship this year.


There have been a number of rumors floating around with inaccurate stories so I would like to inform members of why the team ended up disqualified from the tournament.


First, this is such a rare occurrence and 99.99% of play that people have is weekly on the local level and the Vegas Playoffs so members shouldn't have an impression that "if you do good, you get a DQ".


This isn't an automatic case.


We wish this situation hadn't happened with a team of ours but it did and we're trying to work with the national office to lessen the overall penalties that the members of the team face on the local level.

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Overall, there ended up being too much movement in skill levels overall for the team. *

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There is a certain threshold or limit that a team can move collectively together where if they go over the limit, the team faces the potential of a disqualification. There were 3 teams out of about 1,400 teams this year that were in this situation.

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This is the scenario that happened where the team exceeded the allowed amount and after their last match, a 5th member of the team went up in skill level. *

This is NOT to say that these players changed entire skill levels but could have been close to going up such as a 6.8 and went to a 7.2. The person could have had 0.4 skill level movement. Even though the players had changed skill levels, it's still totaling the combined movement of all players on the team.

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The long story short is that there ended up being too much total skill level movement for the team as a whole.

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I don't view this as malicious intent by the team which is why I'm trying to avoid the additional penalties. We would also like to say that the rumor of a supposed fine to the League Operator is not true and there is no such thing.*

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In multiple lengthy talks with the captain of the team, he understands that score keeping does play an important role in the scenario that happened because when you're at the national tournament, everyone is keeping 100% perfect score and that impacts how a player calculates versus if teams in the league as a whole are relaxed and not marking everything on a weekly basis.

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He knows this and agrees with myself that we never want to see another team in this situation. *

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Keep in mind that the weekly play which everyone is a part of is supposed to be fun. People are out to have a good time, play and enjoy themselves.

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We understand that sometimes some things may be missed and not marked down 100% of the time BUT this is why we say often in newsletters, emails and conversations that people DO need to stay on the ball and make sure that they keep proper score during the matches to avoid issues down the road.

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There are some teams out there in the league as a whole that never mark down defensive shots, are confused on how many innings, etc... This is where it's important that teams keep good track.*

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For the teams that constantly keep poor score, we're going to be in touch with you. We're going to be tracking all matches to see which teams aren't doing their part and have incomplete sheets where they're lacking information.

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We'll also be sending out more videos and educational material for all teams for 8-ball and 9-ball to make sure that whomever tends to keep score KNOWS what is classified as a defensive shot so sheets can be accurate.

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Remember, if you're not playing offense, you're playing defense! It's the easiest way to remember it. *

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If your shot is intended to pocket a ball, it's offense. If the shot is NOT intended to pocket a ball, it's defense.

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We're sure everyone understands the need to keep good score and to review the materials that will be coming out in order to avoid any future issues.

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A final reminder per the newsletters towards the end of the session is that the week 1 of the Fall session begins on Sunday, September 1st and the Fall schedules will be updated at the end of this coming week.

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Thank you for taking the time to read this email and be understanding.


Ryan A McAleer

League Operator

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**This email has been read and approved by the captain of Five Ball Combo**
 

Hits 'em Hard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So basically what happened is poor score keeping at the local level caused handicap issues at the national level. Whoodda thunk?
 

KissedOut

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Not always. I used to play in a league that counted innings. The room I played at had a table that nobody ran out on. A ball shot perfectly along the foot rail would reject if you shot it too hard. The other tables were not so impossible but they were tough.

The players from that room took a lot of innings to finish their matches. They ended up being underrated. That was fine with them.

This is one of the several reasons it's a lousy idea to use inning count to establish skill level across a wide area.

Yup, a 2 handicap established at Riviera Country Club will almost always beat a 2 handicap that was established at the Podunk Muni. Regardless of the USGA course rating and slope rules.
 

cardiac kid

Super Senior Member
Silver Member
So all you APA mavens please explain this to me in terms I can understand:

I play in a league with 100 players of various skill levels in East Podunk, Iowa. I'm 75. I'm the best player and win the vast majority of my matches so I'm the league 7. The league plays on Valley Panthers with bushel baskets for pockets.

You play in a league with 1000 players of various skill levels in New York City. You're 25. You're the best player in the league and win the vast majority of your matches. Your league plays on Diamond 9' tables with pro cut pockets and deep shelves.

How is it possible we are of equal NUMERIC ability? What if we are both 5's instead? Which of us is the stronger player? Which of us will be disqualified if we play at our maximum ability? I'm waiting.

Lyn
 

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So all you APA mavens please explain this to me in terms I can understand:

I play in a league with 100 players of various skill levels in East Podunk, Iowa. I'm 75. I'm the best player and win the vast majority of my matches so I'm the league 7. The league plays on Valley Panthers with bushel baskets for pockets.

You play in a league with 1000 players of various skill levels in New York City. You're 25. You're the best player in the league and win the vast majority of your matches. Your league plays on Diamond 9' tables with pro cut pockets and deep shelves.

How is it possible we are of equal NUMERIC ability? What if we are both 5's instead? Which of us is the stronger player? Which of us will be disqualified if we play at our maximum ability? I'm waiting.

Lyn

I question whether you are from Iowa. Have you ever been late for a league match because you were stuck on the highway behind a tractor?
 

JazzyJeff87

AzB Plutonium Member
Silver Member
He was driving the tractor.

I dealt with that on the eastern shore lol. No traffic for miles around except the tractors and combines and various "fertilizing" vehicles, spraying doo all over the place. Damnable shorebillies.

I didn't even have a stoplight in the nearest town, just a blinking yellow light.

Now these folks would call me a sandbagger even as a 7 and run me out of the place. I've come across some 6s from that side of the bridge that can't run a table full of stop shots.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I question whether you are from Iowa. Have you ever been late for a league match because you were stuck on the highway behind a tractor?
Since he has his own lane on the roads, that's not usually a problem:

CropperCapture[362].jpg
 

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I dealt with that on the eastern shore lol. No traffic for miles around except the tractors and combines and various "fertilizing" vehicles, spraying doo all over the place. Damnable shorebillies.

I didn't even have a stoplight in the nearest town, just a blinking yellow light.

Now these folks would call me a sandbagger even as a 7 and run me out of the place. I've come across some 6s from that side of the bridge that can't run a table full of stop shots.

Pro tip from a man who has shoveled out a hog house and pulled a manure spreader. Wear a ball cap.
 

rharm

Registered
So all you APA mavens please explain this to me in terms I can understand:

I play in a league with 100 players of various skill levels in East Podunk, Iowa. I'm 75. I'm the best player and win the vast majority of my matches so I'm the league 7. The league plays on Valley Panthers with bushel baskets for pockets.

You play in a league with 1000 players of various skill levels in New York City. You're 25. You're the best player in the league and win the vast majority of your matches. Your league plays on Diamond 9' tables with pro cut pockets and deep shelves.

How is it possible we are of equal NUMERIC ability? What if we are both 5's instead? Which of us is the stronger player? Which of us will be disqualified if we play at our maximum ability? I'm waiting.

Lyn

I'm sure there is some impact on SL based on the playing ability of the area, but isn't the SL based more on innings than wins/losses? So just winning most of your matches wouldn't automatically make you a 7, what if your matches are taking 50+ innings? So wouldn't the inning count help to make sure 7's from different areas are close in ability?
 

JessEm

AzB Goldmember
Silver Member
I'm sure there is some impact on SL based on the playing ability of the area, but isn't the SL based more on innings than wins/losses? So just winning most of your matches wouldn't automatically make you a 7, what if your matches are taking 50+ innings? So wouldn't the inning count help to make sure 7's from different areas are close in ability?

Bingo.

They keep win percentage in the equation to muddle the results with subjectivity. In turn, said subjectivity provides an excuse to manipulate SL's for team-busting and expansion.
 
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