Is playing in a league really worth it?

DecentShot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well I think you have nailed the problem right on the pointed APA head.

The several hundred members of my BCAPL league don't enjoy it when they feel like their money is being stolen from them. The APA is giving you a horrible return on your money. Wake TF up.

I need to join a BCA league just to establish my Fargo. If you are playing in a league looking for an ROI? Lol, I think thats the person who needs to wake the F up, we'll have to agree to disagree. Say how is J.B. playing these days?
 
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Celophanewrap

Call me Grace
Silver Member
My opinion is no.
We recently won a long grueling 20 week 3-man 8ball VNEA session (plus playoffs)
22-weeks overall.
We only lost one week, 10-teams
The payout was embarrassing, last place team got $30 less than we did,
every kid gets a trophy, I'm done.

Do you know what your investment was (vs. your payout?)
 

Dan_B

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
It is fun
among a few tens of people,
in a race -
on the hill
with the break
and smash,
balls going everywhere,
a lone straggler
making the rounds
back towards the foot,
clicks the 8 into a 18 3/4" slow roll
to a stripe
near the shelf -
catches a little tit and
in it go's, my first,
just this past wed.

it's OK I guess :wink:
 

cuesblues

cue accumulator
Silver Member
Do you know what your investment was (vs. your payout?)

About double, but it doesn't matter, where did this every kid gets a trophy stuff come from.
I'm used to the last place teams like 6-10 getting very little compared to the top 3 or 4
teams, with the winner getting way more than their investment.
I've taken 4th place and got back most of my investment.

It's not like I need league money but I've played on a lot of teams and up here in
Northern Colorado the payouts are insulting.
 

DecentShot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
About double, but it doesn't matter, where did this every kid gets a trophy stuff come from.
I'm used to the last place teams like 6-10 getting very little compared to the top 3 or 4
teams, with the winner getting way more than their investment.
I've taken 4th place and got back most of my investment.

It's not like I need league money but I've played on a lot of teams and up here in
Northern Colorado the payouts are insulting.

Where are the payouts good?
 

APA Operator

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well I think you have nailed the problem right on the pointed APA head.

The several hundred members of my BCAPL league don't enjoy it when they feel like their money is being stolen from them. The APA is giving you a horrible return on your money. Wake TF up.

I agree - if all you want is monetary ROI, don't join APA. In fact, if you aren't one of the best players in your area, your best ROI in ANY league system is negative. There's no good monetary reason to play in a league. If you want more from your league experience, APA may be the league for you. It's not all drinkers and bangers, but there are some here who would like you to believe that because it's the only way they can prop up their puny little (and I'm not sure about even the "hundreds" claim - you need at least 200 members for that) BCA leagues.

Oh, and if all you want is improvement, don't join a league. There is improvement in all leagues, but not enough in any to satisfy you if that's your goal. In APA you can improve say 0-50 over time with 0 being pure beginner, and in BCA it's maybe 50-55. Less than 50 and you won't learn much in your short time in the league - you'll get tired of losing and quit or your team will drop you. So if that's your goal, you're better off just matching up or playing in tournaments. You get more play / practice that way.
 

cuesblues

cue accumulator
Silver Member
Where are the payouts good?


When I played in Denver rhe winning team got nice payouts, when it was a long session.
Same with the inhouse and BCA inhouse leagues I've played in.

I subbed on a BCA team in Denver and got about the same payout as this thing up here, and I didn't expect a nickel.
 

DecentShot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When I played in Denver rhe winning team got nice payouts, when it was a long session.
Same with the inhouse and BCA inhouse leagues I've played in.

I subbed on a BCA team in Denver and got about the same payout as this thing up here, and I didn't expect a nickel.

I got you. Right on.
 

DecentShot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I agree - if all you want is monetary ROI, don't join APA. In fact, if you aren't one of the best players in your area, your best ROI in ANY league system is negative. There's no good monetary reason to play in a league. If you want more from your league experience, APA may be the league for you. It's not all drinkers and bangers, but there are some here who would like you to believe that because it's the only way they can prop up their puny little (and I'm not sure about even the "hundreds" claim - you need at least 200 members for that) BCA leagues.

Oh, and if all you want is improvement, don't join a league. There is improvement in all leagues, but not enough in any to satisfy you if that's your goal. In APA you can improve say 0-50 over time with 0 being pure beginner, and in BCA it's maybe 50-55. Less than 50 and you won't learn much in your short time in the league - you'll get tired of losing and quit or your team will drop you. So if that's your goal, you're better off just matching up or playing in tournaments. You get more play / practice that way.

All correct. What we have here is a problem with expectations. I don't have any, and look how happy I am in league! (other than beer, I expect to drink beer.)
 

Jack Madden

John Madden Cues
Silver Member
Depends on what you want to get out of league play. A good night out playing with others or serious learning. It would basically depend on your teammates and your goals. Have played in league in Phoenix (enjoyed it). Played tournament pool with Keith McCready (he won). Played serious pool with Pete Glenn (he taught me a lot and loved the guy).

So decide what you want out of league, play if you like it and maybe don’t if it doesn’t.

Jack
 

Mkindsv

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have had a very pleasant experience being a part of a TAP league. Its fun, cheap, and gets me out of the house once a week with the added benefit of being something I love to do....shoot pool. As with anything, pool leagues are what you make of them. If you go in with a good attitude and have a goal, youll have a good time. Go in looking to be disappointed, and I bet youll find that as well. I have about 50 friends I never would have met were it not for the TAP league I joined shortly after moving to Texas. Just my 2 cents, but if you like team events and love pool, no reason tot to give it a try.
 

sbpoolleague

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I need to join a BCA league just to establish my Fargo. If you are playing in a league looking for an ROI? Lol, I think thats the person who needs to wake the F up, we'll have to agree to disagree. Say how is J.B. playing these days?

Return on investment includes a lot more than money.

From a "Got My Money's Worth" perspective, the APA ain't cutting it.
 

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have played in every league that has been available in my area. Apa.....bcapl....tap...napa....usapl. And various money leagues.

I have mostly enjoyed my time in all of them but will never play money leagues again and i get asked to rejoin every time former team mates run into me. Too much sandbagging....breaking rules and way too much drama arguing over everything . fact is the more money involved the less morals some people possess.

To me pool leagues are just like any hobby or passtime....you get out if it what you put in it. I once played apa on sunday....usapl on monday and tap on tuesday.

Years ago i played bcapl on sunday.....traveling money league in bars on monday....in house money league on gold crowns in a pool hall on tuesday ....in house money league. At the same pool hall on 7 footers on Wednesday.

Got too old for all that and just play apa on fridays and sundays now.
 

ChrisSjoblom

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There have been a lot of great replies in this thread, many of which I've read, some which I just scanned, and one which I missed because the poster was on my ignore list. My league experiences have tended to be quite good, but I think that has had more to do with my expectations than the actual merits or shortcomings of any particular league. At the risk of not adding anything new here are my thoughts. Hopefully they with help the OP with his questions.

1. If money payouts are important to you then you will not be happy with any national league. I've played in several different league organizations and I can say with confidence that no player or team ever makes more money than they spend over a season or session. (This is taking into account membership fees, nightly fees, table fees, drinks, food, transportation, babysitting, and any other expenses that may be associated with league participation.) The outlook is even less profitable if you attend league tournaments, either local, regional or national. Leagues are about bragging rights and social interaction much more than they are about profit for the players.

2. If you find it hard to ignore or deal with drama and politics leagues are probably not for you. Any time human beings organize into groups for any purpose drama and political issues will follow. It's just human nature. There are always going to be those that argue over things that they would be better off seeing as trivial, and those that gripe about how things are done without ever offering or being willing to work for something better. You need to be able to look past those people if you are going to be comfortable with leagues. (I'm not referring to politics as issues surrounding government or political parties. Rather I am using the term in a broader sense as defined by the Oxford Dictionary as having to do with, "The debate or conflict among individuals or parties having or hoping to achieve power.")

3. If you are considering leagues as a source of instruction, be very careful in choosing the team you play on. If your team has some better shooters than you, and they are willing to spend time outside of league nights helping you improve, it can work out well. Keep in mind, though, there is usually not a lot of time for instruction on league nights although you may be able to pick up a quick tip or two, or gain some knowledge just by watching. It's pretty much a sure thing as well that you won't get any useful instruction from opposing players, at least on league nights. Also, it's been my experience that the great majority of league players (including team captains) are not as knowledgeable nor as proficient as many of the players you will encounter in your home pool room. While we're on this point, keep in mind that you can be a source of instruction for other league players as well. I can't count the number of times I was able to teach other players, even ones better than I, something new.

4. If you are thinking of joining a league in order to get more table time in competition you could very well find that leagues are great for that. The level of competition is not always consistent in leagues, but they do provide the opportunity for head-to-head competition every match.

5. If developing friendships with other people of similar interests is one of your considerations, leagues can be ideal for that. Not everyone you meet in leagues will be someone you want to become friends with (or even be in the same room with) but I have developed some very nice relationships through league participation over the years. Forget using leagues to meet women, though. It can happen, but it's rare enough to exclude this as a reason for joining.

6. If you are unsure of whether leagues are for you or not I would suggest joining one. After all, how will you know if you don't try it. Keep your expectations rather low and your mind open and you might find that leagues can help you with a few of your objectives while providing some fun in the process. At worst it will be a few wasted evenings and a little money spent on nothing of value. No big deal, right?
I was reluctant to join my first league, having heard all of the complaints that are common on this forum, but I had a couple of friends that kept at me to join their (VNEA) team until I agreed to sub for them for one season. I liked it enough to commit to playing full time during the summer session, and once that was done I came on full time for the regular season. Over time I joined other teams and wound up playing leagues 3 nights a week for a few years. Then a marriage and family intervened and I spent 15+ years out of pool almost entirely. A few years ago I decided to pick it back up again, and leagues have been a part of that, albeit a much smaller part than before. I have played with VNEA, BCA, and several local leagues without national sanctioning. I have played in local, state, regional and national league tournaments as a part of my involvement, and I can say that although not everything has gone well all the time, overall it has been a very positive experience for me. It's just a matter of keeping a good attitude and being able to fade the BS.
 
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ddg45

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hey guys I am new here, so don’t be too hard on me. I just found this site a few days ago. I recently started trying to play a little more and trying to get better at the game with fundamentals and controlling the cue ball the way your suppose to, about a year ago. I must say I love my home room and there are very good players there and they have taught me a lot. It feels like a family with everyone who plays there. They are very welcoming and accepting of anyone who comes in the door. It’s one of the most clean and nicest rooms I have been to. We as house players really try to take care of the house and make sure we clean up and do our part to keep it that way. Anyways I have thought about joining a league since I have been playing better. I have been reluctant to because I have heard horror stories even in our area (not at our pool room) of sandbagging and manipulating score cards and such. After reading a few posts about the APA team in Vegas which I do feel bad for, because it seems like they got the rug pulled out from them in the heat of competition. Which is why we all play right? To win? And win a championship if we can. I just want to ask is it worth it to play in a league? And deal with all the Busch league stuff, because I do want to prove myself against better players. Or do I just just keep playing for fun and keep learning from our great house players and have the friendly competition amongst ourselves. I love playing! I do have a lot of fun playing for hours at a time and get bummed when I have to leave. I just don’t want to join a league and have a bad experience and then hate pool because of it. Because regardless of the APA Vegas story if that happened to me, It would discourage me to keep playing by have someone else (a league) take the fun part away from me. Let alone a chance at a championship if I ever made it that far cause it seems like a lot of hard work, sacrifice, time and money just to make it that far. My second question is since it seems to be APA mentioned a lot with the Busch league stuff. I have also heard BCA is more professional with better players. Does anyone have a better experience or bad experience with BCA? Thanks for any feedback good or bad. I just want to make sure pool stays fun for me whether I choose to play in a league or not.
I was right where you are 2 years ago. I had just started to play and as I got better I was encouraged by friends to join the APA. I did and I love it! My league nights are sacred; the most fun I've ever had. Some of it will depend on which team you're on. I was lucky to be on a team with very cool, very fun, easy going players yet we also made post-season tournaments almost every session. I almost never saw the bullshit so many people ***** about. It happened, but rarely. Overwhelmingly friendly, honest competition with good sportsmanship. I moved to a new city 3 months ago and the first thing I did was hook up with a new APA team. The new session starts tomorrow night and I can't wait!
 

pinoyincalgary

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I played league during the early 90s and am starting again this coming September.
The various team i was with have won trips to Vegas but I never went and just took the money. I quit league for the same reason that many have posted here (lousy pay, sandbagging, poor sportsmanship, and can get better even without joining).
The reason I am returning to league play is to fulfill my old dream of being able to have a chance to go to Vegas and compete (singles and team). I am not getting any younger and my hands, knees, wrist, shoulder, etc are not getting any better (mostly due to 12 yrs of Brazilian jujitsu training).
 

Grandslam

Registered
Why am I playing??

I think this is the first question you should ask yourself and answer honestly. Am I playing for fun, a night out, to meet people or am I playing to win, be competitive and improve quickly. I believe the answer to these questions will help you select the correct league to START with. Once you have joined and played in a league then you are in a better position to see if your objectives were met and if they change then re-evaluate.
 

Protractor

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There have been a lot of great replies in this thread, many of which I've read, some which I just scanned, and one which I missed because the poster was on my ignore list. My league experiences have tended to be quite good, but I think that has had more to do with my expectations than the actual merits or shortcomings of any particular league. At the risk of not adding anything new here are my thoughts. Hopefully they with help the OP with his questions. ...

@JimmyJaymes - Chris's post nails it. Most all of my pool playing life was not in leagues so I've always been a lone wolf, preying on the sheep and wolves until I moved back to the wasteland from LA (spent a lot of time at Mr. Lucky's) and got recruited to play on a friend's team in the local bar type non-sanctioned league. Since the nearest pool hall is a 3.5 hour drive away I figured it would help me get my shooting back after a 20 year layoff.

It did help get back in the swing but as someone that already knew what to do that was used to playing back to back racks the sitting around and waiting for the next game has been very frustrating. The exception was the newly founded VNEA chapter that has double headers on years where there is an odd number of teams as that can result in 8-12 closely spaced games in one evening. Staying in stroke and winning 7 of 8 and 11 of 12 last season was fun.

The monetary payout is not much even though our team is usually in the top 3 but ROI means different things to different folks. League play does help getting used to competition and dealing with Bozos but if you want to improve league play isn't going to help much unless you are lucky enough to have a willing mentor on your team and you are willing to do the homework. A few of us work on our game all year round but I see most players coming back the next year without showing much improvement.

I like to win in a dominate way, so I spend as much time as I can during league and in the off season on my home table after watching lessons and pros playing tournaments on YouTube for inspiration and tips.

If you want to get good, get a decent home table (even if it is a bar table like mine) and use drills and structured practice. Only watch the pros or the best local players because you need to learn to see what they see and think like they do to solidify winning ways. Also analyze their mistakes and try to figure out what they did wrong. This will help your game in ways that league play can't and you can improve your likelihood of winning against the local crowd.

You essentially said that you want to win. Everybody likes it when they win a game but not everyone is hungry for winning and there is a big difference between the two. Once you get good enough that your league opponents feel unsettled when it is their turn to play you that is a form of ROI for the time and effort you have spent and for me that makes league play more palatable.
 

gunzby

My light saber is LD
Silver Member
That depends on your definition. If it's ROI, then absolutely not. You might as well go to Vegas and enjoy yourself on your own dime. If it's to enjoy yourself, play pool and maybe help others get better then yes it's worth it.

Bottom line is if you enjoy league, go for it. If you don't enjoy it, don't play
 
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