mark up on pool products

Kim Bye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The cost of a tip change is the same regardless of the tip brand/cost of the tip. If your customer is fine with a $25 tip, what is the difference to you? you still earn the $15-20 you charge for the job...

I stock Zan, Kamui, G2, Moori, Tiger, Molavia, Taom, White Damond, Samsara, Mezz, Triangle, Le Pro, Elkmaster, Super Pros and a few others. The time it takes me and the wear on my tools and use of sandpapers etc. is more or less the same for every tip install.
To me, the most important thing is that the customer get to choose the product that they like, so having a wide selection is paramount. I also charge a bit more if the customer brings his/her own tip, versus buying the tip and install job from me.
I don`t make much on selling the tips at all, but every little cent counts in the long run.
 

Joe Barringer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You guys are all missing the point. The real culprit is a thing called MAP or Minimum Advertised Price. Since Kamui was the initial target, we'll use that as the example.

Why have Kamui tips soared in popularity? Are they that great or is it marketing? The answer is, marketing and nothing more.

Here's the deal (all prices are approximate and let's not joke about it): The tips cost Masato (owner of Kamui) under $5 per tip to manufacture. He in turn sells them to his distributor(s) for around $9 per tip and the distributor sells them at $14 to the cue makers and then the controlled retail price is say $25 (MAP).

The reason they have gained in popularity is because of the army Kamui has amassed. Yes, it's an army. You have thousands and thousands of cue makers, installers, retail shops, etc all selling Kamui. Now, let's be real here. You are making $10 on a Kamui tip. You are making $3 on a Moori tip. You are making $1 on an elkmaster. You are making $5 on a Tiger product tip. As a retailer, installer, etc, when a 'customer' comes up to you and asks, what tips should I try or what's the best tip, what will 99.999% of the merchants reply with and why?

Answer: Kamui because they are making $10 per tip or thereabouts. When you have an army of people who can potentially earn $10 per tip, you get all that support for the product regardless what the product may be.

We just had someone overseas try to market us their G3 (does not exist but is used as an example) tips. We can manufacture the exact same tip for $1.25

We have our own lines and brands of tips which compete directly with Kamui, Moori and Tiger all of which are gaining in popularity because of the greed. We don't market them with banner adds. We don't advertise them in the magazines. We don't advertise them at tournaments. Etc, etc, etc.

Who do you think pays for all that advertising? The consumer! That's why all the greedy companies have a MAP policy. I understand MAP is a great policy because it protects this and allows that and is good for the market. Hog wash! It's anti competitive, anti American and anti consumer because all it does is force higher than normal retail prices. It does away with the word competition because there is none as everyone is selling the crap for the exact same price. It's like the Stepford Wives!

And, that my friends is why Kamui are $25 retail and $14 wholesale. You have no one to thank except yourselves.

And, that my friends is why there are a plethora of 'new' tips entering the marketplace as they're trying to emulate Kamui.

We've taken a stand and refuse to sell any product that has a MAP policy. We were selling 6 figures annually in Tiger Products tips and chose NO MAP over profits. We will not support any product that try's to control the marketplace and will not allow a free marketplace.
 

Kim Bye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You are entitled to your views Joe and I have no problem with you choosing to take a stand against fixed prices, It`s your business and you can run it anyway you choose.
But the policy that brands like Kamui and Tiger use is nothing new, infact, it`s the common way pricing is done in the market, look at Apple, McDonalds or pretty much any other brand. To combat unautorized import/export, brands calculate a price structure, where it does not really matter where you buy your product, the price is pretty much the same (sure there are fluctuations in currency and you as a customer can benifit, but it`s a digression...)
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
If you don't like it, don't buy it. I see no reason to publicly criticize anyone's business practices unless they are fraudulent.

No kidding ? Gotta love the hypocrisy too.
Wow, profit is not good now ?
Mosato of Kamui made a handshake deal with the person who built his business in the US and worldwide??? Wait, a handshake deal that someone honored?
Wait, those things still happen ??? Did Jerry Franklin make a handshake deal and his wife is still honoring it to this day? No way.
Advertising costs shouldn't be a factor in retail price ? And advertising and sponsoring pool events is bad ?
Pigskin is cheap and making multi-layered tips doesn't cost as much as single layered tips ? Hell, no multi layered tip should cost over $5 then .
How many of these multi-layered tips are made in China or Taiwan and are just re-branded ?
Just go to Alibaba get them yourselves . You can even have your name on it . Then you can hype it as " As good as Kamui ".

I have a problem carrying other brand of layered tips that some people can get at a lower price than I can .

Set market pricing ? OMG! We should sue Bose . I'm gonna sue Subaru. They cost too much.
 

Joe Barringer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You are entitled to your views Joe and I have no problem with you choosing to take a stand against fixed prices, It`s your business and you can run it anyway you choose.
But the policy that brands like Kamui and Tiger use is nothing new, infact, it`s the common way pricing is done in the market, look at Apple, McDonalds or pretty much any other brand. To combat unautorized import/export, brands calculate a price structure, where it does not really matter where you buy your product, the price is pretty much the same (sure there are fluctuations in currency and you as a customer can benifit, but it`s a digression...)

And you are certainly entitled to your thoughts as well however, "it`s the common way pricing is done in the market, look at Apple....." doesn't make it right. It's the new way of pricing, not the correct way or a free marketplace. It's controlled, manipulated and causes higher than normal retail pricing; period. Without MAP there would be more competition and lower pricing. That's a fact.

There are some, (not you) who have their heads so far up Masato's rear end (he likes that too) that they can't see anymore. LOL
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
But the policy that brands like Kamui and Tiger use is nothing new, in fact, it`s the common way pricing is done in the market, look at Apple, McDonalds or pretty much any other brand. To combat unauthorized import/export, brands calculate a price structure, where it does not really matter where you buy your product, the price is pretty much the same (sure there are fluctuations in currency and you as a customer can benifit, but it`s a digression...)
And that protects the consumers.
The mobsters used to hoard commodities, then release them at a huge profit .
It also protects scumbags who'd sell below cost to put others out of business then sell the products at a huge price increases after he's killed all the competition . The govt. figured that out eons ago.
 

Hits 'em Hard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
And you are certainly entitled to your thoughts as well however, "it`s the common way pricing is done in the market, look at Apple....." doesn't make it right. It's the new way of pricing, not the correct way or a free marketplace. It's controlled, manipulated and causes higher than normal retail pricing; period. Without MAP there would be more competition and lower pricing. That's a fact.

There are some, (not you) who have their heads so far up Masato's rear end (he likes that too) that they can't see anymore. LOL

Except you're forgetting one small detail between the tips you make and the tips that have a MAP attached. It's called a warranty. They want you to be able to assure the customer that the tip is going to last and play as described. That same assurance is not found in any other tip maker. I can't return my crap Triangles/LePros/Elks, but I can replace a crap Kamui.

And for the people saying they charge $20 to install anything, that's over a $10 profit on a Triangle/LePro/Elk. So why is a $10 profit on a triangle acceptable, somewhere around 3000% profit off that tip. Where a $10 profit off Kamui is barely 75% profit not acceptable?
 
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rhncue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was making a lot of money installing Kamui tips. It started at 9.00 a tip wholesale and I charged 25.00 for one installed with a lifetime guarantee. They then went to 12.40 per tip and I went to 35.00 each. When they went to 14.00 plus I still carried them but tried to talk everybody out of them as I told everyone they were overpriced and that the Ultra-skins were close enough in performance and were half the price. They then went to over 14.00 and that's when I quit carrying them in stock. I was making plenty of money installing them, the manufacture was making plenty, but who was getting screwed? The player that's who. I finally just quit carrying them in protest. I put on any tip that the customer brings in for 10.00. I guarantee all of my work for the life of the work being done. So, those who bring in their own tips I explain to them that if the tip should happen to fall off then they should look for it for re-installation. If I must furnish the tip then I put on just what I charged them for, one of my standard tips which are Elk's, Lepros, Triangles or water Buffalo.

In this scenario, the customer comes out ahead as he can acquire what ever tip he feels he needs and he get's the tips a little a cheaper and I don't have 4 or 500.00 tied up in inventory, plus, I no longer feel that I am an accomplice to robbing somebody.

Dick
 

Joe Barringer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Every tip has a warranty except that most people really don't need a warranty on a thirty cent tip as the time to warranty it is a waste of your time. You're also mixing apple and oranges. Most people install a triangle/elkmaster for around $8 to $10 including the tip but charge $10 - $15 for the install and another $10 profit for the tip with a Kamui or similar. There is nothing wrong with that but that's why the Kamui are so popular with the dealers because they can make more money.

And anyone who can say that MAP protects the consumer is pinhead. The consumer doesn't need price manipulation, price fixing and higher consumer pricing because of MAP.

Bottom-line: MAP 100% causes higher consumer pricing. If you didn't have it, there would be more competition and more competition is a free market way of protecting the consumer. Without free competition, you have MAP and higher retail pricing and that's why Kamui are priced at approximately $25 with everyone who sells them.

MAP is there for the protection of the manufacturer, distributor, dealers and certainly not the consumer because it's forcing higher than normal retail pricing. Dealers cannot sell the tip for whatever they want.

Furthermore, business is business and if you can't compete, you don't belong in business. That's a harsh statement but also true. If I can't compete, I don't handle the product. And, if I can compete I want to dominate the product.
 

Tommy-D

World's best B player...
Silver Member
The reason I quit stocking all layered tips other than Tom's Ultras is simple.

In my area,I've built a base of over 100 people that consistently bring me their cues when they need work done.

Out of all these customers,I've had exactly 2 that would pay even 35.00 for a Kamui,Moori,etc,and that's with the shaft cleaning/resealing that most of the "big name" repairmen/cuemakers charge extra for.

I charge 15.00 for one-piece tips with the cleaning included. For the Ultras I charge 20.00. If a customer brings me a tip to install that I don't stock,I charge 15.00,cleaning again included.

At these prices I can make a profit on the tips,and still pay for my consumable supplies,plus it doesn't bruise people's wallets and the quality of my work puts smiles on their faces :cool:.

If I was in a big enough area where I had 50 people a week bring in work,it might be different,but in my part of the world there isn't enough demand for the high-end tips. Tommy D.
 

Brickcues

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My question is why does the Kamui tip still cost $14.50 each when Japan is now in a recession and the Dollar-Yen situation has reversed itself.

The Yen has dropped in value compared with the Dollar and the Kamui dealers are now getting the tips for lower cost. Why have our prices not changed to reflect the change in value as the dollar is now gained over 20% on the Yen. We should now see a 20% change in our price but it has not happened.

The map crap is just that. I buy hundreds of tips at a time in order to maximize profit but any one with MAP does not care to give a quantity discount. Whether you buy 1 tip or 200 the price is the same. It is getting to the point that the only tips I sell are the ones that give me a discount for buying quantity. If they do not want to deal with me then I go elsewhere.
 

Dave38

theemperorhasnoclotheson
Silver Member
The reason I quit stocking all layered tips other than Tom's Ultras is simple.

In my area,I've built a base of over 100 people that consistently bring me their cues when they need work done.

Out of all these customers,I've had exactly 2 that would pay even 35.00 for a Kamui,Moori,etc,and that's with the shaft cleaning/resealing that most of the "big name" repairmen/cuemakers charge extra for.

I charge 15.00 for one-piece tips with the cleaning included. For the Ultras I charge 20.00. If a customer brings me a tip to install that I don't stock,I charge 15.00,cleaning again included.

At these prices I can make a profit on the tips,and still pay for my consumable supplies,plus it doesn't bruise people's wallets and the quality of my work puts smiles on their faces :cool:.

If I was in a big enough area where I had 50 people a week bring in work,it might be different,but in my part of the world there isn't enough demand for the high-end tips. Tommy D.

I have the same situation. not enough demand, mainly due to the tip cost to the customer.
Dave
Dave
 

Kim Bye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have the same situation. not enough demand, mainly due to the tip cost to the customer.
Dave
Dave

That might be a factor that varies alot from place to place.
I find it a bit funny that so many players have fairly expensive cues, but paying 25 bucs for a quality tip and about the same for the job, thats looked upon as a waste of money...
 

TomHay

Best Tips For Less
Gold Member
Silver Member
The Cue is a one time buy or buy sell buy. The Tip is what keeps needing replacement.

Now on the $25.00 tip and the $2.50 tip. Bean Counter comes in and says we have to raise prices 10%. This means just the raise will be as much as the whole $2.50 tip. Look at the history of the prices. Something has to give.


That might be a factor that varies alot from place to place.
I find it a bit funny that so many players have fairly expensive cues, but paying 25 bucs for a quality tip and about the same for the job, thats looked upon as a waste of money...
 

Albatross Cues

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My question is why does the Kamui tip still cost $14.50 each when Japan is now in a recession and the Dollar-Yen situation has reversed itself.

The Yen has dropped in value compared with the Dollar and the Kamui dealers are now getting the tips for lower cost. Why have our prices not changed to reflect the change in value as the dollar is now gained over 20% on the Yen. We should now see a 20% change in our price but it has not happened.

The map crap is just that. I buy hundreds of tips at a time in order to maximize profit but any one with MAP does not care to give a quantity discount. Whether you buy 1 tip or 200 the price is the same. It is getting to the point that the only tips I sell are the ones that give me a discount for buying quantity. If they do not want to deal with me then I go elsewhere.

Aloha

Some of this is your local repairman/ or supplier has a plethora of tips that were purchased at the higher price, they still have an investment in the unused tips and still need to see a profit from the ones in stock before they can order more, and pass the savings on to you.

Aloha
 

Brickcues

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Aloha

Some of this is your local repairman/ or supplier has a plethora of tips that were purchased at the higher price, they still have an investment in the unused tips and still need to see a profit from the ones in stock before they can order more, and pass the savings on to you.

Aloha

I am the repairman and I am buying from the USA distributer for Kamui. Would seem like he would have placed an order since November. I think Kamui sets the price on their tips and not the distributer as a part of MAP.
 

Albatross Cues

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am the repairman and I am buying from the USA distributer for Kamui. Would seem like he would have placed an order since November. I think Kamui sets the price on their tips and not the distributer as a part of MAP.

That sounds about right. Time to put some American made products back on our shelves.
 

Joe Barringer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am the repairman and I am buying from the USA distributer for Kamui. Would seem like he would have placed an order since November. I think Kamui sets the price on their tips and not the distributer as a part of MAP.


Do you want the pure bitter truth as to why the prices for imported tips are the same despite a falling Yen?

Europeans and most through the world (Americans not included) are much more savvy to international trade and making purchases throughout the world. Americans, or 'dumb' Americans as we are known throughout the world are, for the most part isolated and ignorant to international trade and especially how to adjust pricing due to changes in exchange rates. As such, they prefer the same old, same old. We've been spoiled for centuries as we can get whatever we need right here in the USA.

Imagine for a moment: the American distributor pays $9 for a product that he prices at $14 but 4 months from now the Yen drops so his cost is $8.10 but keeps the wholesale the same. Why? Because he would be spending more time on the phone with customers explaining why the price dropped/ increased each quarter.

It's easier to set a price and maintain it. Kamui sets the rules and it's up to the American distributor to enforce them.

If you were an importer, then you'd be getting the price advantage due to falling international rates. You're not so don't expect anything. :D
 

CrossBone Cue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When I first got started, I looked into the tips I wanted to carry. I had folks that wanted tips, but when I gave them a price, they say that they can get the tip for X. It was the same thing I would pay. I never bought in bulk, never had anyone try to get me to sell their product, probably because I don't buy that much. If they pay the same as me, I just never saw the value in stocking a bunch of tips.
Steve
 

robsnotes4u

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You guys are all missing the point. The real culprit is a thing called MAP or Minimum Advertised Price. Since Kamui was the initial target, we'll use that as the example.



Why have Kamui tips soared in popularity? Are they that great or is it marketing? The answer is, marketing and nothing more.



Here's the deal (all prices are approximate and let's not joke about it): The tips cost Masato (owner of Kamui) under $5 per tip to manufacture. He in turn sells them to his distributor(s) for around $9 per tip and the distributor sells them at $14 to the cue makers and then the controlled retail price is say $25 (MAP).



The reason they have gained in popularity is because of the army Kamui has amassed. Yes, it's an army. You have thousands and thousands of cue makers, installers, retail shops, etc all selling Kamui. Now, let's be real here. You are making $10 on a Kamui tip. You are making $3 on a Moori tip. You are making $1 on an elkmaster. You are making $5 on a Tiger product tip. As a retailer, installer, etc, when a 'customer' comes up to you and asks, what tips should I try or what's the best tip, what will 99.999% of the merchants reply with and why?



Answer: Kamui because they are making $10 per tip or thereabouts. When you have an army of people who can potentially earn $10 per tip, you get all that support for the product regardless what the product may be.



We just had someone overseas try to market us their G3 (does not exist but is used as an example) tips. We can manufacture the exact same tip for $1.25



We have our own lines and brands of tips which compete directly with Kamui, Moori and Tiger all of which are gaining in popularity because of the greed. We don't market them with banner adds. We don't advertise them in the magazines. We don't advertise them at tournaments. Etc, etc, etc.



Who do you think pays for all that advertising? The consumer! That's why all the greedy companies have a MAP policy. I understand MAP is a great policy because it protects this and allows that and is good for the market. Hog wash! It's anti competitive, anti American and anti consumer because all it does is force higher than normal retail prices. It does away with the word competition because there is none as everyone is selling the crap for the exact same price. It's like the Stepford Wives!



And, that my friends is why Kamui are $25 retail and $14 wholesale. You have no one to thank except yourselves.



And, that my friends is why there are a plethora of 'new' tips entering the marketplace as they're trying to emulate Kamui.



We've taken a stand and refuse to sell any product that has a MAP policy. We were selling 6 figures annually in Tiger Products tips and chose NO MAP over profits. We will not support any product that try's to control the marketplace and will not allow a free marketplace.


You might want to read this. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1591395267/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?qid=1428537893&sr=8-2&keywords=market+share#

Manage for Profit not Market Share a guide to greater profits I a highly contested market


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