Same to you, dickwad.
APA screwed our very own sleinen out of a national championship
- Thread starter ShortBusRuss
- Start date
Same to you, dickwad.
This seems like a difficult situation.
Let's assume that there is no funny business at all with the team that got DQ'd nor with any other team. Let's also assume for simplicity all teams are comprised of players rated 5,5,5,4,4 (adds to 23).
Suppose a 5 is a player rated from 421 - 500, so an average 5 is about 460
Suppose a 4 is a player rated from 341 - 420, so an average 4 is about 380
Amongst all the teams there will be a mix of low 4's, mid 4's, high 4's, low 5's, etc. So a typical team at the local level will be rated 2140 (380+380+460+460+460)
The highest possible legitimate team will be rated 200 points higher, at 2340. But it is pretty unlikely to find a team near 2340.
But wait!
The local teams all play off and a select group go to regionals. Those advancing to regionals will tend to average higher than 2140 because they are the group that won locally. Maybe they average 2190. Then a select group win at the regional level and get a trip to nationals. Now this select-select group averages 2240.
Then once you get into the $$ rounds at nationals you have teams that have beaten a handful of the select-select group that is at nationals. Now the small number of remaining teams average 2300. They're pretty much all high 4's and high 5's or they wouldn't be there.
With all these filters, maybe we shouldn't be surprised to find near the end the team that is already pushing the cap with skill AND has players that happen to be clicking...
I don't know how you distinguish this from the various bad-faith scenarios.
Let's assume that there is no funny business at all with the team that got DQ'd nor with any other team. Let's also assume for simplicity all teams are comprised of players rated 5,5,5,4,4 (adds to 23).
Suppose a 5 is a player rated from 421 - 500, so an average 5 is about 460
Suppose a 4 is a player rated from 341 - 420, so an average 4 is about 380
Amongst all the teams there will be a mix of low 4's, mid 4's, high 4's, low 5's, etc. So a typical team at the local level will be rated 2140 (380+380+460+460+460)
The highest possible legitimate team will be rated 200 points higher, at 2340. But it is pretty unlikely to find a team near 2340.
But wait!
The local teams all play off and a select group go to regionals. Those advancing to regionals will tend to average higher than 2140 because they are the group that won locally. Maybe they average 2190. Then a select group win at the regional level and get a trip to nationals. Now this select-select group averages 2240.
Then once you get into the $$ rounds at nationals you have teams that have beaten a handful of the select-select group that is at nationals. Now the small number of remaining teams average 2300. They're pretty much all high 4's and high 5's or they wouldn't be there.
With all these filters, maybe we shouldn't be surprised to find near the end the team that is already pushing the cap with skill AND has players that happen to be clicking...
I don't know how you distinguish this from the various bad-faith scenarios.
Oh you gotta get Facebook to watch this thing! You should see the finals :killingme::killingme:
You should definitely see the condition of that table they're playing on! Pure Valley/Dynamo mastery at it's finest.
:speechless::rotflmao1:
Ref needs to get a damn ladder if anyone needs the hit watched.
Some of the safety attempts are just.... cringeworthy is an understatement.
Entertaining? Definitely checks that box.
Doing a great service to pool? That's a negative ghost rider, the pattern is full.
The interesting thing to see would be the report from the APA regarding how their handicaps started out, and where they ended up during the tournament. Manipulation at the higher handicaps really doesn’t do much. But at the 2 and 3 SL, it’s much more of an advantage. When a 2 steps up to a 3 level, but their handicap doesn’t go up, they’re getting a 6 ball spot in the match. That’s huge. Same with a 1 playing at a 2 level. I think that’s worth a 7 ball spot. Games that could potentially be 12-8 losses, are now 15-5 wins. That’s a huge swing. If your low rank players can score you some daylight in the first two matches, the other team’s strategy changes.
We have local player who posted he has multiple 100+ runs and even mentioned he was a century snooker player. When a few other locals who also post here caught wind of that we could not help but laugh as he's hard pressed to run a 100 balls or points in 25 innings. Not saying Sean isn't capable but I personally don't believe everything I read on here. I think any runs mentioned over 100 should be accompanied with a video.
Cheers,
The fact that they can't get their S together enough to have 8 ball go to a SL 9 is stupid. The APA needs to fargo rate their league.
In my view it is on the APA. There are other systems that are much more expensive to sandbag. Counting innings promotes sandbagging.
It is unlikely that the APA will adopt FargoRate since it is the property of a competing organization, but I think it would go a long way towards fixing the rating problems in the APA.
It's weird that lots of other leagues don't have the exact same issue.
Sure, there's bagging going on in every league across the nation.
But they're not low-key promoting it, like some leagues are. Whether intentional or not.
Im just surprised that a non sandbagging APA 6 (in 8 ball) and an unofficial Fargorate of 534...is a 100 ball runner. Of course, I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time...
Eric
Correction Bob. FargoRate is not the property of a competing organization. FargoRate is 100% owned by Steve Ernst and me.
odds
Without considering anything else, consider odds with as many people as the APA moves up at the finals every year. Like longshot poker hands happening, it was just a given that five people on one team would be moved up sooner or later. It may not happen again for ten years, it may happen next year.
What is needed is more transparency on the APA's part so players could better judge where they are at. Perhaps they need more levels and require someone to move up two levels to be disqualified.
I am a lifelong competitor and someone that routinely performs better under pressure. I would be screwed if I tried to play APA.
I see some questioning Sean's integrity again so I will say again it is of the highest. The occasional high run happens, in straight pool or snooker. I was stopped three balls short of a perfect snooker run when the ball hit the bottom of the pocket and came back out. If Sean tells me a rooster can tote a bale of cotton I'll be looking for a place for the rooster to put it down!
Hu
Without considering anything else, consider odds with as many people as the APA moves up at the finals every year. Like longshot poker hands happening, it was just a given that five people on one team would be moved up sooner or later. It may not happen again for ten years, it may happen next year.
What is needed is more transparency on the APA's part so players could better judge where they are at. Perhaps they need more levels and require someone to move up two levels to be disqualified.
I am a lifelong competitor and someone that routinely performs better under pressure. I would be screwed if I tried to play APA.
I see some questioning Sean's integrity again so I will say again it is of the highest. The occasional high run happens, in straight pool or snooker. I was stopped three balls short of a perfect snooker run when the ball hit the bottom of the pocket and came back out. If Sean tells me a rooster can tote a bale of cotton I'll be looking for a place for the rooster to put it down!
Hu
Important to note that "sandbagging" in the APA has multiple motivations. For most it probably isn't a matter of win at all costs in Vegas, I bet for the majority its a way to keep the team together, and that is certainly on the APA. Don't disqualify, adjust your system to account for a wider scale.
Hal, I agree with you. 100%.
APA is a business like walmart. If the business owners have complaints from a "small" % of their customers, well, they don't care to much but, if 80% of their customers stop shopping there, well....lol... they tend to listen up.
Same thing with the APA.
Out of curiosity, who came up with the "handicapping" horse chit?
People that wanted to do something fun, but didn't want to lose all the time at it.
:idea2:
Edit: Personally, I don't like handicapping in tournaments, and there may be a few leagues out there that just put people's skill against other people's skill.
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Thanks for the correction. That would mean that the APA should feel free to transition to FargoRate ratings. I think it would not only be simpler for them to keep data (no innings) but they would get more correct global comparisons. Uneven regions is a problem mentioned above and that can occur even within one city due to different playings conditions.
Handicapping is as old as pool itself. One of the oldest billiard books in English (Enoch White's "A Practical Treatise on the Game of Billiards", 1807) has pages and pages of the correct betting odds like when someone is getting five points in a race to 12 and the score is 6-all, the better player is a 5-2 favorite.
If you mean who developed the particular system that the APA uses, that would be the co-founders of the APA, Larry Hubbart and Terry Bell.
Are league results included in the fargo ratings or is it only non-handicapped single player tournaments?
League results are included, and the mechanism to get them in is to manage your league with fargorate.com/LMS