"Diamondizing" a Gold Crown III.. In Germany

ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
Sorry if this has been beat to death, but I am driving to Kaiserslautern tomorrow to check out a Gold Crown III for sale at Billiard Beckmann, and if I buy it, I definitely want to get it converted to Diamond specs, or ae close as I can get, but need to know a few things.

1. And most important.. Does anyone know anybody competent in Germany that I can pay to do this work? I'd rather find someone who's done this before..

2. If not, I'll prolly have to take my chances with asking Billiard Beckmann to do the work of extending the subrail properly to accomodate the Diamond rails.. So, is the rail otherwise the same "profile" as a Diamond, or are there other modifications thst need to be done to the rail? I don't mind paying whatever it requires. I am just not sure what exactly to ask for.

3. Please don't say, "Just buy a Diamond....". There is a website that supposedly is "Diamond Billiards in Europe", but guaranteed that a Diamond table shipped over here is gonna cost 8K+, easy.. I am not sure that it is not just a placeholder website at this point, anyways.. As far as I know, there are no Diamond tables within 300-500 miles of Frankfurt, and certainly no one selling them locally.

The reason it is important for me to get Diamond rails instead of just working with a weel installed Gold Crown setup is that I've come close to beating a few pros whenever I go to Derby, but never really had the setup to practice properly..

First it was unknowingly practicing on a Red Label Diamond, then getting John Morra down 2-1 in the One Pocket the year he won the banks, then failing to close him out with 2 or 3 tries at cross corners that I hit super long because of my Red Label practice. Then, getting Scott Frost down 5-0, 6-0 back to back games this year, but failing to convert due to general lack of practice, and what practice I had was on Gold Crowns here in Germany.

So, hopefully someone knows a good table mechanic heremin Germany?
 

Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
I'll help ya out, I'm redoing another GCI right now. The Gold Crowns from the I's and on up have K66 profile rails. This years DCC event had Artemis Intercontinental 66 cushions that properly fit the Brunswick K66 profile.

In the states they are called Artemis 66 cushions, the Intercontinental word was removed. I heard they are precut, no shims.

I think a set of em are around $350 give or take. Diamond will sell em direct, I called just a few weeks back.
 
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kid

billiard mechanic
Silver Member
....brunswick never used k66 as far as i know. Gold crowns 1 & 2 used old monarch profile ( no longer available). 3's used superspeed (very close to k55).
Best is to just put superspeed on and have the subrails extended


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Double-Dave

Developing cue-addict
Silver Member
Fwiw, Bata bar in Berlin has Diamond tables, it's about 350 miles from Frankfurt.

(one of) The owner(s) also runs billardpro.de and they do sell Diamonds and yes they are quite expensive.

Regards, Dave
 

ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
I'll help ya out, I'm redoing another GCI right now. The Gold Crowns from the I's and on up have K66 profile rails. This years DCC event had Artemis Intercontinental 66 cushions that properly fit the Brunswick K66 profile.

In the states they are called Artemis 66 cushions, the Intercontinental word was removed. I heard they are precut, no shims.

I think a set of em are around $350 give or take. Diamond will sell em direct, I called just a few weeks back.

Well... Artemis is a German brand, so I should actually be able to get it a little cheaper here, due to no export costs, yes? I would not think I need to order it directly from Brunswick..

Also,, You refer to "Artemis Intercontinental 66 cushions that properly fit the Brunswick K66 profile".. It was my understanding that the Artemis Intercontinental 66 cushions are actually a K55 profile, and are just unfortunately named, causing some confusion...

In summary, are you saying that both Gold Crowns and Diamonds use a K55 cushion profile, so the main work involved is simply extending the subrail properly and making sure the pocket angles/size are correct?

Thanks,

Short Bus Russ
 

ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
....brunswick never used k66 as far as i know. Gold crowns 1 & 2 used old monarch profile ( no longer available). 3's used superspeed (very close to k55).
Best is to just put superspeed on and have the subrails extended


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Well, I have heard Superspeeds have a problem with hardening up. And I want a table that banks exactly like a Diamond, not just close, as that is specifically what cost me wins against pros already.

So.. Diamonds use the Artemis International 66 (K55 profile), correct? If so, that's what I am looking for.. Just want to confirm that this is what I need. I am okay if the mechanic just gets "close" to the right specs on the pocket, as long as the table banks exactly like a Diamond.
 
Well, I have heard Superspeeds have a problem with hardening up. And I want a table that banks exactly like a Diamond, not just close, as that is specifically what cost me wins against pros already.

So.. Diamonds use the Artemis International 66 (K55 profile), correct? If so, that's what I am looking for.. Just want to confirm that this is what I need. I am okay if the mechanic just gets "close" to the right specs on the pocket, as long as the table banks exactly like a Diamond.



Oh boy, did you just open a can of worms. Super speeds had a problem way, way back when. Hasn’t been an issue in a long time.

I will let others chime in on the “exactly like a diamond”. No diamond will bank like a GC and no GC will bank like a diamond. Completely different sub rails, bolt patterns (which effect the solid hit and rebound).

You don’t want to hear it but the words are going to come across at some point.


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Tony_in_MD

You want some of this?
Silver Member
Oh boy, did you just open a can of worms. Super speeds had a problem way, way back when. Hasn’t been an issue in a long time.

I will let others chime in on the “exactly like a diamond”. No diamond will bank like a GC and no GC will bank like a diamond. Completely different sub rails, bolt patterns (which effect the solid hit and rebound).

You don’t want to hear it but the words are going to come across at some point.


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Glenn RKC redid my gc2 with Artemis ic cushions years ago. The rail profiles needed adjusted it is not a simple swap.


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ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
Glenn RKC redid my gc2 with Artemis ic cushions years ago. The rail profiles needed adjusted it is not a simple swap.

Can you clarify on this point? What exactly needs to be done to the rails? I fully understand the idea of having to extend the subrail, so that the longer rail has the requiring backing to rebound properly.

But are you saying that in addition to that, the angle of the rail needs to be changed in some way?

Short Bus Russ
 
Can you clarify on this point? What exactly needs to be done to the rails? I fully understand the idea of having to extend the subrail, so that the longer rail has the requiring backing to rebound properly.



But are you saying that in addition to that, the angle of the rail needs to be changed in some way?



Short Bus Russ



Short answer is yes.

I will let the responder elaborate. I will search for the thread so you can see what’s required. Even then I doubt they will play the same. They are two different tables. Not as easy as changing pockets or adding a bolt or two. Things are inherently different between all tables. So it won’t be the same table.


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JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Can you clarify on this point? What exactly needs to be done to the rails? I fully understand the idea of having to extend the subrail, so that the longer rail has the requiring backing to rebound properly.

But are you saying that in addition to that, the angle of the rail needs to be changed in some way?

Short Bus Russ
To copy the blue label Diamond, the profile has to be changed.
Save yourself the headache and euros.
Stick with Superspeed.
It has not hurt Hohmann and Eckert practicing on GC3.
 

Tony_in_MD

You want some of this?
Silver Member
If the angles of the sub rails are not changed they bank short. If RKC would chime in he could explain it.

Can you clarify on this point? What exactly needs to be done to the rails? I fully understand the idea of having to extend the subrail, so that the longer rail has the requiring backing to rebound properly.

But are you saying that in addition to that, the angle of the rail needs to be changed in some way?

Short Bus Russ
 
If the angles of the sub rails are not changed they bank short. If RKC would chime in he could explain it.



It’s more than just banking short. It effects other things also. Such as speed, hop or bounce off the rails etc.

I am waiting for RKC to chime in and bust everyone in half.

He is a silver tongue devil he is.


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trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Silver Member
Freight.

Freighting a table over sea's not that expensive. I have a client in Antwerp Belgium and it only cost me $650 to freight it over on a ship. I am sure he paid some customs fee's and import taxes, but, it surely was not $8000.00...

There are only a few guys in the world that can make a GC play even close to a Diamond and RKC is the one I would have do it, but, by the time you paid for everything you would have spent the same as buying a new blue label Diamond.

BUY A DIAMOND IF YOU WANT IT TO PLAY LIKE ONE< Stop wasting peoples time and your own.

Trent from Toledo
 
Here is a thread I posted after he did my table (three days of work)



https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=248590



From some recent posts by RKC I think he has gone back to using superspeeds on GC's. I think the main point is to have someone who knows what they are doing when doing a rail install.



You have been one of the lucky ones that have been serviced by the best.

Now if I could find someone to remove the Formica off my GC V and replace with wood veneer I would be a happy camper. I hope Mark recovers. I want a top notch job.

One thing I will say about diamonds is that they are consistent and they are made in America. Wish I could say the same for Brunswick.

But as far as playing. I will take my GC ALL day long and find few that complain.


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ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
Okay... So that begs the question, then...

Do Superspeeds play approximately the same as Artemis Continental rails?

And I assume I would still need the table mechanic to extend the subrail to tighten the pockets, right?
 

Tony_in_MD

You want some of this?
Silver Member
The right way (IMHO) is to extend the subrail to tighten the pockets. Having multiple layers of shims makes the pockets play goofy.

I guess if you are handy you can do it yourself, but speaking for myself I would have a competent table mechanic do it. I believe on GCI and II the sub rails need to be modified to accept the modern superspeed cushions because when those tables were made they came with the old Monarch cushions.

My GCII had the Monarch cushions, I had them first replaced with superspeeds and didn't like them at all because the mechanic did not alter the subrail profile. After a few years of that, I had Glen do the table with Artemis.

As far as how Artemis plays compared to Superspeeds, I think if the mechanic knows what he is doing, you would see little to no difference as long as the sub rails are correct for each table.

Mark Gregory, uses Superspeeds, and I have never heard or read any bad reviews of his work.


Okay... So that begs the question, then...

Do Superspeeds play approximately the same as Artemis Continental rails?

And I assume I would still need the table mechanic to extend the subrail to tighten the pockets, right?
 

Tony_in_MD

You want some of this?
Silver Member
If you are in the states I suppose you can send your rails to Mark Gregory. I have been wanting to do the same to the Formica on my GCII for a long time.

I have been to lazy to pursue it. ;)

You have been one of the lucky ones that have been serviced by the best.

Now if I could find someone to remove the Formica off my GC V and replace with wood veneer I would be a happy camper. I hope Mark recovers. I want a top notch job.

One thing I will say about diamonds is that they are consistent and they are made in America. Wish I could say the same for Brunswick.

But as far as playing. I will take my GC ALL day long and find few that complain.


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