"Diamondizing" a Gold Crown III.. In Germany

realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
bradsh98 said:
You're right: I haven't tried it.

My theory:

For a Diamond table, I would have to guess that they still bank short. I believe that the rigidity of the table is what causes the majority of the short banking issue. Hence the reason that the smaller tables still bank short.

The tables have such a rigid construction, that there is minimal energy loss through the table. This isn't a bad thing. But, using the same specifications that are used on a Gold Crown, it makes the tables bank shorter.

I still believe that flipping the Artemis cushions to have the rounded side up would improve the short banking issue, but I do not have any experience in validating this theory, nor would I have a way to quantify the results.

Fact is, there are very few Diamond tables in my area, and the owners of the ones that are local, would certainly not want to experiment with changing them.
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Ok then, so in other words, you have no facts in how the cushions play mounted either way, so you're just going along with what everyone else is saying. And in all reality, in order to compare how a Diamond plays in reguards to being like, or unlike a Gold Crown, using the same specs as you just pointed out above, with Diamonds rails being more dense than that of the Gold Crowns....would that be a fair comparison if the were using the SAME cushions? Fact is, even if the rails are built to the SAME sub-rail specs, if they don't use the same superspeed cushions, how can you conclude the harder Diamond rails are the reason the Diamonds play so fast? Would they play different if they had the SAME cushions on both rails??? I know the answer to that question, because i HAVE installed superspeed cushions on a 7ft Diamond!!
 
ShortBusRuss

ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
Okay, so... considering that my table is coming this Sunday and I will have an update shortly thereafter, I respectfully request that everyone takes their arguing to another thread, if they so desire.

I have been patient, but at this point, no one is changing anyone else's mind. This back and forth bickering is simply personality conflicts, not any true debate of ideas.
 
bradsh98

bradsh98

Bradshaw Billiard Service
Silver Member
realkingcobra said:
Ok then, so in other words, you have no facts in how the cushions play mounted either way, so you're just going along with what everyone else is saying. And in all reality, in order to compare how a Diamond plays in reguards to being like, or unlike a Gold Crown, using the same specs as you just pointed out above, with Diamonds rails being more dense than that of the Gold Crowns....would that be a fair comparison if the were using the SAME cushions? Fact is, even if the rails are built to the SAME sub-rail specs, if they don't use the same superspeed cushions, how can you conclude the harder Diamond rails are the reason the Diamonds play so fast? Would they play different if they had the SAME cushions on both rails??? I know the answer to that question, because i HAVE installed superspeed cushions on a 7ft Diamond!!
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Again, you are trying to get into WHY Diamonds bank short....
Who F@#!&%$G cares why?? The point is: they bank short!

I have not installed Superspeed cushions on a Diamond. In fact, I rarely WORK on Diamonds, though I do sometimes PLAY on them..

I have, however, installed Artemis Intercontinental 66 cushions on a lot of Gold Crowns. But again, that's not the point.

When people discuss the difference between tables, they are generally referring to the table 'as received from the factory'. You want to introduce all of these silly variables: "install Superspeed cushions on a Diamond, install Championship Titan cloth..." That's silly.

We are not changing the variables, in order to compare the tables. If a Diamond comes from the factory, with Simonis 860HR and Artemis Intercontinental 66 cushions, and a Brunswick Gold Crown comes from the factory, with Simonis 860HR and Brunswick Superspeed cushions, then that's how they should be compared. Otherwise, you are changing the variables of the experiment.

If you want to compare the construction of the tables, and get into the details of what makes each table play different, then let's start changing variables. But for the sake of comparing the tables to one another (as received from the factory), lets stick with a factory set up. In that setting, Diamond tables bank short!
 
bradsh98

bradsh98

Bradshaw Billiard Service
Silver Member
ShortBusRuss said:
Okay, so... considering that my table is coming this Sunday and I will have an update shortly thereafter, I respectfully request that everyone takes their arguing to another thread, if they so desire.

I have been patient, but at this point, no one is changing anyone else's mind. This back and forth bickering is simply personality conflicts, not any true debate of ideas.
Click to expand...

My apologies Russ..
 
realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
ShortBusRuss said:
Okay, so... considering that my table is coming this Sunday and I will have an update shortly thereafter, I respectfully request that everyone takes their arguing to another thread, if they so desire.

I have been patient, but at this point, no one is changing anyone else's mind. This back and forth bickering is simply personality conflicts, not any true debate of ideas.
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Russ, just follow up with what we discussed buddy.
 
jtompilot

jtompilot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
DrawBack74 said:
So if I am understanding this correctly, changing the cloth out will make the table bank and play more like a GC? That’s ironic. Diamond must have known that the tables would be offered with Simonis. I think we are finally starting to come to the conclusion that diamonds don’t play right.

The 3 pool halls I have frequented that have mixed tables (Stixx, California Billiards, forgot the name of the other) the Diamonds get very little play compared to the GC. If you go to Freezers and that’s all they have then that’s all you play.

It’s obvious they are designed as a one pocket table that you can play other games on.

I’m going to disagree about the mixed tables. I’ve been to more rooms around the country than 95% of the people who post here an AZworld. In my experience the popularity of Diamond far surpasses GC. I own a GC4 and don’t see much difference between it and a Blue label.

I think the GC is much better looking table but I get really annoyed with the rubber streaks on my shaft. However the leather dye spots are also annoying
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realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
jtompilot said:
DrawBack74 said:
So if I am understanding this correctly, changing the cloth out will make the table bank and play more like a GC? That’s ironic. Diamond must have known that the tables would be offered with Simonis. I think we are finally starting to come to the conclusion that diamonds don’t play right.

The 3 pool halls I have frequented that have mixed tables (Stixx, California Billiards, forgot the name of the other) the Diamonds get very little play compared to the GC. If you go to Freezers and that’s all they have then that’s all you play.

It’s obvious they are designed as a one pocket table that you can play other games on.

I’m going to disagree about the mixed tables. I’ve been to more rooms around the country than 95% of the people who post here an AZworld. In my experience the popularity of Diamond far surpasses GC. I own a GC4 and don’t see much difference between it and a Blue label.

I think the GC is much better looking table but I get really annoyed with the rubber streaks on my shaft. However the leather dye spots are also annoying
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Yeah, but haven't you heard, you're just a sheep and don't know the difference between a good or bad playing table....that's the excuse these people give when someone don't agree with them about how badly the Diamond's play.....baaaa baaaaa....LOL
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D

DrawBack74

Banned
realkingcobra said:
jtompilot said:
Yeah, but haven't you heard, you're just a sheep and don't know the difference between a good or bad playing table....that's the excuse these people give when someone don't agree with them about how badly the Diamond's play.....baaaa baaaaa....LOL
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Let’s not forget they are HALF the price of a new GC. That is probably the single biggest reason for the popularity. I just don’t see people complaint about Gold Crowns as they do a diamond. So as they may be popular (Murray’s were popular once) they are a flavor. Baaaaaa.

I will stick to the table that made the industry great and not the cheaper one that is hip today. To each there own. But, there wouldn’t be a discussion about it if they were the end all. Which they certainly are not. I could point out many things on both sides but it’s already been discussed in many threads in detail.


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realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
DrawBack74 said:
realkingcobra said:
Let’s not forget they are HALF the price of a new GC. That is probably the single biggest reason for the popularity. I just don’t see people complaint about Gold Crowns as they do a diamond. So as they may be popular (Murray’s were popular once) they are a flavor. Baaaaaa.

I will stick to the table that made the industry great and not the cheaper one that is hip today. To each there own. But, there wouldn’t be a discussion about it if they were the end all. Which they certainly are not. I could point out many things on both sides but it’s already been discussed in many threads in detail.


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No one like changes, except when it's their own income.
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jtompilot

jtompilot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
DrawBack74 said:
realkingcobra said:
Let’s not forget they are HALF the price of a new GC. That is probably the single biggest reason for the popularity. I just don’t see people complaint about Gold Crowns as they do a diamond. So as they may be popular (Murray’s were popular once) they are a flavor. Baaaaaa.

I will stick to the table that made the industry great and not the cheaper one that is hip today. To each there own. But, there wouldn’t be a discussion about it if they were the end all. Which they certainly are not. I could point out many things on both sides but it’s already been discussed in many threads in detail.


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Click to expand...

I played on a GC5 in Vegas. It’s ugly and doesn’t play any better than my GC4. I can’t see how anyone thinks a Diamond ProAm looks better than any GC. The Professional looks better but still not a nice as a GC. I’ve never see or played on a GC6.

I actually think the Blue label plays close enough to my GC4 that I consider them to be even in playability. You can burn all those red label tables:angry:

Overall I think the Diamond is a better product today than Brunswick, especially considering the cost.
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D

DrawBack74

Banned
jtompilot said:
DrawBack74 said:
I played on a GC5 in Vegas. It’s ugly and doesn’t play any better than my GC4. I can’t see how anyone thinks a Diamond ProAm looks better than any GC. The Professional looks better but still not a nice as a GC. I’ve never see or played on a GC6.



I actually think the Blue label plays close enough to my GC4 that I consider them to be even in playability. You can burn all those red label tables:angry:



Overall I think the Diamond is a better product today than Brunswick, especially considering the cost.
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Wouldn’t expect a GCV to play any better than a GCIV. Unless the GCV is the tournament addition which is what I own. On a GCV Tournament Addition the pockets are cut different. 4 1/2 corners. No extensions just a stock rail that has the angles and length changed. With that said the rails on any GCV or GCVI are different from past rails. They are wider and longer with the rails made to accept the new castings.

To say the GCV is ugly I think would leave you in the minority. It is without a doubt the best looking commercial table Brunswick has ever made. This excludes the centennial and anniversary tables which are gorgeous.


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jtompilot

jtompilot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
DrawBack74 said:
jtompilot said:
Wouldn’t expect a GCV to play any better than a GCIV. Unless the GCV is the tournament addition which is what I own. On a GCV Tournament Addition the pockets are cut different. 4 1/2 corners. No extensions just a stock rail that has the angles and length changed. With that said the rails on any GCV or GCVI are different from past rails. They are wider and longer with the rails made to accept the new castings.

To say the GCV is ugly I think would leave you in the minority. It is without a doubt the best looking commercial table Brunswick has ever made. This excludes the centennial and anniversary tables which are gorgeous.


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Ugly might be a slight exaggeration. The matte black looks much better but it’s all subjective.

What’s the deal with the corners. Brunswick tournament table specs show corners 4.5-4.625” Does that mean you can specify anything between those dimensions? Regular table starts at 10 grand. Ouch
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D

DrawBack74

Banned
jtompilot said:
DrawBack74 said:
Ugly might be a slight exaggeration. The matte black looks much better but it’s all subjective.



What’s the deal with the corners. Brunswick tournament table specs show corners 4.5-4.625” Does that mean you can specify anything between those dimensions? Regular table starts at 10 grand. Ouch
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No you can’t specify. It just means they are covering there butts. Partially because it has to do with the setup and partially because there are variances. There always will be. Nothing is an absolute zero. Aerospace has varying tolerances depending on the part. Usually in thousands of an inch. Billiards is obviously not nearly as critical. Although pool players will find fault in a 100th of an inch as to why they didn’t make a shot. That’s how this entire thread got started.


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jtompilot

jtompilot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
DrawBack74 said:
jtompilot said:
No you can’t specify. It just means they are covering there butts. Partially because it has to do with the setup and partially because there are variances. There always will be. Nothing is an absolute zero. Aerospace has varying tolerances depending on the part. Usually in thousands of an inch. Billiards is obviously not nearly as critical. Although pool players will find fault in a 100th of an inch as to why they didn’t make a shot. That’s how this entire thread got started.


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That’s one large tolerance. If I payed Diamond an extra $300 to get 4.125 corners and it came in at 4.250 I’d be asking for a $300 refund. To me this is a problem with Brunswick and other companies, you don’t get what you pay for. So for approximately $2500 more you get less than a Diamond:confused: I’ll pass on that one:smile:
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S

Ssonerai

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
S.B. Russ -

Suspect i'm not the only one on the sidelines reaping an education from your post. It has been rewarding, certainly for me, to benefit from a wealth of information that a person would never get from reading books or other places online. 4 (at least) expert table mechanics/ component manufacturers "un-subtly" analyzing subtle technical factors!

It seems consideration was: 1.)what is possible in given situation 2.) technical success of possible options, probably 50:50. 3.) Option of doing nothing? Not viable. Hence, just go do it. 4.) put it out there for the rest of us to benefit. Success, failure, or in between.

Hope it is a success. Maybe not the way you expected things to go, but it was not rash and has been an informative adventure

I don't know squat about tables except what i'm lucky to pick up here. However, as a woodworker, i do know that sometimes the key difference when people argue technique boils down to "longevity". It may be that your (inexpensive) table mods get the necessary result - quick practice table for an upcoming event. That might or might not inform a more perfect solution later. Or for some of the rest of us with table mods to consider.

My thanks and appreciation to all you guys.

smt
 
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