Advice for a Stubborn Player

Set up one of those bank run scenarios in practice and have your friend estimate his chances. If he says, "I can run these about half the time" have him do it five or six times... and have him also watch some pro matches. They really do play safe often as you know...

Print this out and give it to your friend:

He's only playing for a year. How could he possibly know how the pros play? He doesn't have a clue and tell him he's a dummy if he thinks the pros don't play safe. You bet they do.

He will have to play more safes than the pros do because he is less skilled than they are but it doesn't mean they don't know how to protect themselves in a bad situation.

Also, tell him it's not a good idea to use the league matches to experiment because it's not fair to his teammates. If he wants to go for the tough shots then he needs to practice them on his own and get fairly good at them before trying them in competition.

Pros play defense!

BilliardsAbout said:

Set up one of those bank run scenarios in practice and have your friend estimate his chances. If he says, "I can run these about half the time" have him do it five or six times... and have him also watch some pro matches. They really do play safe often as you know...

Click to expand...

Yes, if he watches pros he may get the message. If he doesn't want to do that, remember my "argument for defense" that asks the football fan, "When you're stuck with fourth and forty, do you try to score?" With the exception of the end of the game, no, you punt, which is the equivalent of a safety in pool: you're trying to put your opponent in a tough situation.
There are actually relatively few sports that have no defense...bowling, track, gymnastics for example. But for most, including pool, defense is a key to success.

3- foul him in 9-ball a dozen games in a row and see what he says. If you can't do it yourself, find someone who can and see what your buddy says about safeties then.

I have dealt with this with many teammates. It is a difficult situation because what I believe is happening is out ego gets in the way. We as players tend to want to prove how good we are at pocketing balls. Until they are ready to put the focus on winning as opposed to making lots of balls, you will get much resistance.

Until someone is ready, trying to force them is in vain. Let them enjoy doing what they are doing, until they no longer enjoy losing. Handicapped league will cause that, what can be done to expedite them wanting to learn to accept defense is put them against a higher skill level.

If he is willing to read books, I highly suggest "The 8-ball Bible" by R. Givens. It really preaches the importance of decision making.

I have a quote for my teammates, "If your expected outcome is less than 50% for the shot you are about to take, look to find another option. There is no reason to take a less than 50% shot when you are at the table. Typically, that means find a defense that you can execute much higher than 50% of the time. If you cannot accurately judge what is 50% for yourtself, then I need you to get out of denial!"

Good Luck!

Steve

FranCrimi said:

Print this out and give it to your friend:

He's only playing for a year. How could he possibly know how the pros play? He doesn't have a clue and tell him he's a dummy if he thinks the pros don't play safe. You bet they do.

He will have to play more safes than the pros do because he is less skilled than they are but it doesn't mean they don't know how to protect themselves in a bad situation.

Also, tell him it's not a good idea to use the league matches to experiment because it's not fair to his teammates. If he wants to go for the tough shots then he needs to practice them on his own and get fairly good at them before trying them in competition.

Click to expand...

But you know what he's going to say, right Fran? "But see? It is precisely in this pressure situation that I have to learn how to 'come with the shot' -- 'like the pros do'. Practicing the shot will do nothing for me -- except reinforce the fact that I can make the shot without pressure." <...face palm...>

I know what the OP is talking about -- had many teammates like this in my league days, and saw it all the time when I was the LO for the Boston Billiards regional leagues in the Danbury CT area.

The most effective way to deal with this, is to have a really strong player hand this player's head to him on the table. Effect some lockup safeties on him, and demonstrate -- on him -- how effective they are. Then, when he tries to kick and miss, run the table out on him with a series of simple shots (not banks -- don't want to reinforce to him that bank shots are "the tools of the pros"!). Beat him with exactly the type of play that you want him to adopt.

Then again, because this guy is so early in his pool learning, he may just be pigheaded and will have to learn through time -- getting kicked off teams along the way.

Sorry to have to say things this way, but I've seen these types of players before, and they can be a real pain in the petut. "Been playing only for a yaer, but suddenly they know it all."

-Sean

sfleinen said:

But you know what he's going to say, right Fran? "But see? It is precisely in this pressure situation that I have to learn how to 'come with the shot' -- 'like the pros do'. Practicing the shot will do nothing for me -- except reinforce the fact that I can make the shot without pressure." <...face palm...>

I know what the OP is talking about -- had many teammates like this in my league days, and saw it all the time when I was the LO for the Boston Billiards regional leagues in the Danbury CT area.

The most effective way to deal with this, is to have a really strong player hand this player's head to him on the table. Effect some lockup safeties on him, and demonstrate -- on him -- how effective they are. Then, when he tries to kick and miss, run the table out on him with a series of simple shots (not banks -- don't want to reinforce to him that bank shots are "the tools of the pros"!). Beat him with exactly the type of play that you want him to adopt.

Then again, because this guy is so early in his pool learning, he may just be pigheaded and will have to learn through time -- getting kicked off teams along the way.

Sorry to have to say things this way, but I've seen these types of players before, and they can be a real pain in the petut. "Been playing only for a yaer, but suddenly they know it all."

-Sean

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Well, if he were on my team and he insisted on using his matches to experiment with his game, then I'd bench him as often as possible until he became a team player. There is a time and place to experiment and it shouldn't be done at the expense of one's teammates.

Did you just say "pain in the petut?"

You just made a new fan (me).

There is a 9 ball game in which the only way to win a game is to three foul your opponent. Each player is only allowed to shoot one ball into a pocket per inning and then a safety must be played. If the nine should drop it gets respotted immediately. If two many balls are pocketed during the course of a game that game can be called a draw. This is a great game to learn the most effective way to play a safety and the game can be a lot of fun too.

Hopefully by your friend playing this game he will learn the value of safety play. You may use this tactic; you wish him to play this game with you to enable you to hone your skills at safety play in 9 ball. That way he will think that he is really playing the game for your benefit not his.

Tom

I can remember when not that long ago and it was beyond my comprehension how an advanced player thinks and plays the game.

FranCrimi said:

[...]
Did you just say "pain in the petut?"

You just made a new fan (me).

Click to expand...

Yes, I did! It's a variation on "pain in the petard" -- but even funnier.

-Sean

Steve...My personal percentage is 80%, or I'm playing safe! LOL

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

boyersj said:

I have a quote for my teammates, "If your expected outcome is less than 50% for the shot you are about to take, look to find another option. There is no reason to take a less than 50% shot when you are at the table. Typically, that means find a defense that you can execute much higher than 50% of the time. If you cannot accurately judge what is 50% for yourtself, then I need you to get out of denial!"

Good Luck!

Steve

Click to expand...

I had to start somewhere! They could relate to coin flip LOL. 80%, not very likely. It did start working though, as it makes them think about the liklihood of making the shot, getting the desired position, breaking out the ball... instead of being satisfied with "I think I can do it."

this guy has probably been showed enough. he either figures it out or gets mad and quits. it's sink or swim time. we've got a guy we call "rocket pocket", he's played for about 3yrs. and has no clue how to play. thick head and thin skin are a bad mix.

I've been reading some pool books and I found a game listed called safety 9 ball. 1 player shoots the normal game the other shoots only safeties.

I would ask your friend to block you from making your next shot. And hopefully you my friend would be playing a lot of banks and kicks. Of course if he misses you win. So although it may make you miserable, it may show him the good side of defensive play.


Like your friend I never allowed myself to play a safety. After being hooked enough I decided it was time to get some help. One of the instructors here helped me out and the rest is history. I also prefer the term defense, it makes me think of football and people in the bleachers chanting "defense, defense", it's cool when they do it, why isn't ok in pool (I don't even like football).

I'm not an instructor... I was just reading the book and saw your thread, immediately after reading that.
Thanks
Loren

I was (and am) like this guy. Instead of trying to change him how about you go with the wind so to speak.

Theres nothing wrong with banks and difficult shots. A lot of people say hey those are hard shots. do something else! I'm with your friend. Those shots need practicing. Nowadays I feel real strong when I need to bank a variety of shots. Teach him reference lines for banks. Teach him how to be a bad ass. dont fill his head with self doubt when theres a perfectly good nice and difficult offensive shot to execute. give him the tools.

Teach him the wagon wheel drill. if your friend wants to be a runout champion he needs to master a huge variety of stoke speeds and english. All of it. He needs to hit nothing but draw one day. then nothing but inside etc I once spent a whole day shooting nothing but force follow shots. Its good for building your overall ability. Deepens your skillset.

I once ran a nineball rack with nothing but draw. It was retarded. but i did it. its like a little personal medal i achieved that noone knows about but me. I have a lot of those medals in my head.

Now I feel confident trying to run very heinous ****ed up racks. My comfort zone is HUGE. People get flustered when they have to deal with a hard shot. I'm at home just another crappy shot, crappy leave etc. Tell him to man up and own that shit like a boss.

As for his strategic skill set. He needs to recognize when a layout is impossible to run conventionally... Then he needs to practice running out anyway. breakouts are just variations of leaves for shots. the natural follow shot doesnt afford the break out so you shoot it with draw, inside etc

but ofcourse sometimes your need to play safe. but your not going to want to do that until your soul has been absolutly crushed shooting they same offensive shot over and over. this will come in time if he truly plays enough.

also unless he can shoot pretty good its entirely possible he doesnt know how to play safe in a given situation. he doestn know the shot or perhaps fails to recognize it. dont harp on him and whittle at his confidence. this will come in time. eventually deep down he will know when hes banging his head against a wall. his own perception and honesty with himself and desire to win will bend him to they crafty ways of the safety play.

bottom line is if he wants to be a runout champion support him. let him. but judge him by those standards. when he fails to runout ask him wtf appened?! if he really wants it it will burn him up inside just as much when he fails to runout or blows a safety. let him play win or lose on his own terms. there is PLENTY of room in a league for a power offense. If he cares and is dedicated he can easily roll over most people in your league even without the defense.

Drills

Make ****ing sure he can execute a stop shot of any length of the table. if he cant he needs to get real with his offense or join the sheep.

throw 6-8 balls on one half of the table. he has to run out with every shot the cueball going to the short rail, atleast, and back. ideally using only the 2 closest corner pockets. its like the opposite of the brainwash drill.

all 15 balls on 1/2 the table. 2 hangers in the corners. 1 frozen to middle of short rail. 2 or 3 frozen to eachother on headspot. all other balls free and random. ideally only using the closest corner and side pockets. not the far corners. have him run that out.

Good Luck!