Is the Break Shot Overrated?

ceebee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The Break Shot is very Important.

I discovered about 20 years ago, the Break Shot is important, so I made myself a tool to practice that shot. I still use that tool, before I play in a Tournament or matches. I know it's makes a difference.

But hey, practicing the Break Shot can be an Advantage or a Disadvantage, it's your choice.
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... In straight pool, the break shot isn't even a question if it's overrated or not. It's the deciding factor in who sits and who racks up beads. :cool:

Conventional wisdom is that it is a disadvantage to have to play the opening safety break shot in 14.1 against a good player on a 9-foot table.

It has been quite a while since I looked at some stats on this. But here's a post on it from 2016, where I looked at the 110 streamed matches I had tracked for 4 years of the World 14.1 event. The opening breaker won a few more of those games than did the non-breaker.

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5666314&postcount=24
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
Conventional wisdom is that it is a disadvantage to have to play the opening safety break shot in 14.1 against a good player on a 9-foot table.

It has been quite a while since I looked at some stats on this. But here's a post on it from 2016, where I looked at the 110 streamed matches I had tracked for 4 years of the World 14.1 event. The opening breaker won a few more of those games than did the non-breaker.

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5666314&postcount=24

Thanx for those stats, AtLarge
I told the Miz a long time ago that if I took up 14.1, I would work on my break so it became
an advantage....if you get him close to the rail and don’t scatter the balls...his position
should be worse than yours when you broke...gotta be a tight rack.

One-pocket...been reading some of your stats
When I took up one-hole, the conventional wisdom was the break = 1.5 balls....
...but we were playing more often on loose pockets then ( lotta 5 inch pockets)...
...I think tight pockets has taken away the breaker’s edge...returns are more possible now.
...’course, the players know more shots also
Thoughts?
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Thanx for those stats, AtLarge
I told the Miz a long time ago that if I took up 14.1, I would work on my break so it became
an advantage....if you get him close to the rail and don’t scatter the balls...his position
should be worse than yours when you broke...gotta be a tight rack.

One-pocket...been reading some of your stats
When I took up one-hole, the conventional wisdom was the break = 1.5 balls....
...but we were playing more often on loose pockets then ( lotta 5 inch pockets)...
...I think tight pockets has taken away the breaker’s edge...returns are more possible now.
...’course, the players know more shots also
Thoughts?

Yes, pt, I saw your comment 2 weeks ago that tighter pockets nowadays may have reduced the breaker's edge in One-Pocket, and it certainly makes sense to me.
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
I sure ain’t no pro, so I’m just askin’.
Is the skill of the break shot overrated?
Of course, the outcome of the break is important, but is the skill of breaking overhyped?
The rack will never be exactly the same twice in a row (gaps, alignment on table), and neither will the placement of the cue ball, the contact point of the cue/cue ball or cue ball/object ball, and table conditions is variable.

If anybody could shoot superhumanly perfect, and the balls are racked to superhuman perfection every time, they’d make the money ball on the break every time. Imperceivable differences in those things will result in very perceivable results, so I consider the results of a break to be relatively random. Anybody agree?

Ok, you managed to pull my first post out of me. I want to take a stab at this one in the context I believe you're after... There's three question marks in your post so you'll get three answers.

Just so you can equate my point of view on the matter... I am what's probably best described as a "local pro". Meaning I sit along side the best in my area, and even within that group, getting some of my cash in your pocket comes with some bragging rights. That said, I'm not a "state" (provincial) champ or anything of that magnitude.

Is the skill of the break shot overrated?
No, not at all. If anything, and as some of the replies within the thread have illustrated, it's under played. I found the listing of the various games and importance of the break in those games entertaining.

What stood out most was the opinion of the snooker break being nearly consequential. Which depending on the level of play is accurate to some degree. However (and more to your point I believe) I started out playing snooker and first right of "skill" passage was consistently nailing that standard break of clipping the wing ball, bringing the cue ball back four rails, and nesting behind the head strings colours. Now falling short on that break and leaving something long wasn't the end of the world, but if you nailed it, it set the tone for that frame. So in terms in consequence... meh. The skill involved in making that break correctly which is a basically a 30ft four rail safety. Well, enough said...lol

The break in rotation games has always been my short coming. ...and I truly believe it's what has prevented me from competing at a higher level. Lately when I "practice", I only go through the motions for regular in game shots, put real effort into racking poorly and reviewing the outcome. Practicing "perfect" template type breaks is nearly pointless imo. A template break should be as routine as any other shot.

In 8-ball I use one of two breaks. Either balls out and straight into the head ball, or second ball cut. Which break I use is solely dependent on who I'm playing and the quality of racks I'm given. The "skill" here isn't the break itself. It's assessing your opponent. I find cut breaks tend to be more successful but are more likely to cluster, and will "side load" the balls if the rack is a slug. It really boils down to the other guy's table IQ.

Eventually you'll reach a level where you opponents can all run out from everywhere. This is the point when you need to seek out other advantages. Being able to control your break is one of them. This is a skill that needs to be learned just as any other.

Of course, the outcome of the break is important, but is the skill of breaking overhyped?
I was long winded in the first answer, so I'll dial this one back.... If you can agree that the outcome of the break is important, then wouldn't you also have to know that the ability to control that outcome is as well...?

The only real variable I see change in the game on the pro level, is the rules and methods used to prevent making those who have mastered the skill of breaking white wash tournaments. The 3 point rule, 9 on the spot, from the kitchen. Everything in an effort to shake up a tangible skill to equalize the game. In reality, these rules do nothing more than place handicaps on stronger players. No different than spotting games imo...

I consider the results of a break to be relatively random. Anybody agree?
Pulled you out of context a little, but I think I pasted the key point. I agree that bulk of the results of a break are indeed random. However the skill isn't to make all the balls in the first shot. The skill (for example) is knowing that when the 1 is landing above the side pocket during your break, you should focus on making the wing but still swing hard enough to get the 1 ball to opposite top corner for your opening shot.

To sum up... I believe there are several stages in player skill development. Everyone starts out being a potter. Then they build their cue ball control. That rolls into safety play. About here is when focus shifts towards the break and table IQ.

Although later in development. The break is just as important and probably one of the more difficult skills to build.

Sorry I was so long winded... Back to the bleachers I go :wink:
 
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Geosnooker

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Conventional wisdom is that it is a disadvantage to have to play the opening safety break shot in 14.1 against a good player on a 9-foot table.

It has been quite a while since I looked at some stats on this. But here's a post on it from 2016, where I looked at the 110 streamed matches I had tracked for 4 years of the World 14.1 event. The opening breaker won a few more of those games than did the non-breaker.

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5666314&postcount=24

It’s an interesting stat.

However, 99.99% of players are not in the World’s event.

I play hockey but don't emulate What NHL players do to get results. I don’t have to shoot the puck in to the opposition end if I can outskate the defense and go around him. I then don’t have to shoot low to the stick side of The goalie if he is weak with his glove hand.

Lacking in most billiard generalities is the very important ‘who are you playing’. 99.99% of us are not top pros and not playing top pros and are never going to play top pros other than as a one off fun game.
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
It’s an interesting stat.

However, 99.99% of players are not in the World’s event.

I play hockey but don't emulate What NHL players do to get results. I don’t have to shoot the puck in to the opposition end if I can outskate the defense and go around him. I then don’t have to shoot low to the stick side of The goalie if he is weak with his glove hand.

Lacking in most billiard generalities is the very important ‘who are you playing’. 99.99% of us are not top pros and not playing top pros and are never going to play top pros other than as a one off fun game.

Are you saying you think that having to play the opening break shot in 14.1 is a more significant disadvantage (higher likelihood of losing the game) for lower-level players than for pros?
 

middleofnowhere

Registered
Are you saying you think that having to play the opening break shot in 14.1 is a more significant disadvantage (higher likelihood of losing the game) for lower-level players than for pros?

I would say not. The weak player is almost certain to screw up the opening break and the incoming player will run like 4 so it doesn't really matter at all.
 

9andout

Gunnin' for a 3 pack!!
Silver Member
I discovered about 20 years ago, the Break Shot is important, so I made myself a tool to practice that shot. I still use that tool, before I play in a Tournament or matches. I know it's makes a difference.

But hey, practicing the Break Shot can be an Advantage or a Disadvantage, it's your choice.
Love that "tool"!!!!
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
not too shabby!

Ok, you managed to pull my first post out of me. I want to take a stab at this one in the context I believe you're after... There's three question marks in your post so you'll get three answers.

Just so you can equate my point of view on the matter... I am what's probably best described as a "local pro". Meaning I sit along side the best in my area, and even within that group, getting some of my cash in your pocket comes with some bragging rights. That said, I'm not a "state" (provincial) champ or anything of that magnitude.


No, not at all. If anything, and as some of the replies within the thread have illustrated, it's under played. I found the listing of the various games and importance of the break in those games entertaining.

What stood out most was the opinion of the snooker break being nearly consequential. Which depending on the level of play is accurate to some degree. However (and more to your point I believe) I started out playing snooker and first right of "skill" passage was consistently nailing that standard break of clipping the wing ball, bringing the cue ball back four rails, and nesting behind the head strings colours. Now falling short on that break and leaving something long wasn't the end of the world, but if you nailed it, it set the tone for that frame. So in terms in consequence... meh. The skill involved in making that break correctly which is a basically a 30ft four rail safety. Well, enough said...lol

The break in rotation games has always been my short coming. ...and I truly believe it's what has prevented me from competing at a higher level. Lately when I "practice", I only go through the motions for regular in game shots, put real effort into racking poorly and reviewing the outcome. Practicing "perfect" template type breaks is nearly pointless imo. A template break should be as routine as any other shot.

In 8-ball I use one of two breaks. Either balls out and straight into the head ball, or second ball cut. Which break I use is solely dependent on who I'm playing and the quality of racks I'm given. The "skill" here isn't the break itself. It's assessing your opponent. I find cut breaks tend to be more successful but are more likely to cluster, and will "side load" the balls if the rack is a slug. It really boils down to the other guy's table IQ.

Eventually you'll reach a level where you opponents can all run out from everywhere. This is the point when you need to seek out other advantages. Being able to control your break is one of them. This is a skill that needs to be learned just as any other.


I was long winded in the first answer, so I'll dial this one back.... If you can agree that the outcome of the break is important, then wouldn't you also have to know that the ability to control that outcome is as well...?

The only real variable I see change in the game on the pro level, is the rules and methods used to prevent making those who have mastered the skill of breaking white wash tournaments. The 3 point rule, 9 on the spot, from the kitchen. Everything in an effort to shake up a tangible skill to equalize the game. In reality, these rules do nothing more than place handicaps on stronger players. No different than spotting games imo...


Pulled you out of context a little, but I think I pasted the key point. I agree that bulk of the results of a break are indeed random. However the skill isn't to make all the balls in the first shot. The skill (for example) is knowing that when the 1 is landing above the side pocket during your break, you should focus on making the wing but still swing hard enough to get the 1 ball to opposite top corner for your opening shot.

To sum up... I believe there are several stages in player skill development. Everyone starts out being a potter. Then they build their cue ball control. That rolls into safety play. About here is when focus shifts towards the break and table IQ.

Although later in development. The break is just as important and probably one of the more difficult skills to build.

Sorry I was so long winded... Back to the bleachers I go :wink:



Not too shabby for a first post! Welcome aboard. We always need more quality posters on AZB.

Your post like some others strongly indicates the break is really underrated. Not a bad thing, gives those that appreciate the break an edge. Many years ago I played American rules snooker with nine reds. (I do know "American" is a misnomer but it seems to have worldwide usage!)Anyway, maybe even just local rules, a legal break was three rails into the side of the pile and just touching it, no balls moved. It wasn't a hard break to master or a hard break to counter but surprisingly many people didn't counter it.

I had a decent break for snooker, eight and nine ball, my curse was six ball on a bar table. Often made a ball or three, also often made none and left a connect the dots run out that Ray Charles could have ran.

Hu
 

Mr. Dogg

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ok, you managed to pull my first post out of me. I want to take a stab at this one in the context I believe you're after... (etc.)

WOW!

Others have answered politely, but still didn't quite understand the question (not implication). Others have unfairly attacked me for even asking, and called me stupid, and then tarred & feathered me for defending myself. YOU, however, understand EXACTLY what I was asking, and answered it very, very well!

Because of YOU, I now understand that the skill of the break is not overrated, and why it isn't.

THANK YOU for your "long-winded" (as you called it) answer!!!

If I had a magic wand, I would delete this entire thread, except for my question and your, polite, informative, and intelligent answer.


Edit:
Because of your explanation, I will now be able to appreciate SVB's much touted break. I'll watch it more closely, and your explanation will help me understand what I'm looking at. Thanks, again!
 
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jeephawk

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
WOW!

Others have answered politely, but still didn't quite understand the question (not implication). Others have unfairly attacked me for even asking, and called me stupid, and then tarred & feathered me for defending myself. YOU, however, understand EXACTLY what I was asking, and answered it very, very well!

Because of YOU, I now understand that the skill of the break is not overrated, and why it isn't.

THANK YOU for your "long-winded" (as you called it) answer!!!

If I had a magic wand, I would delete this entire thread, except for my question and your, polite, informative, and intelligent answer.

Weren't you deleting yourself - so still here?
 

Mr. Dogg

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Weren't you deleting yourself - so still here?

The_JV said, "Ok, you managed to pull my first post out of me."
With about the same sentiment, his answer managed to pull me in with purpose of thanking him and letting him know he has answered the question I asked. I'll still lurk, but I do not intend to be very active in this snake-infested forum.
 
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