No respect for players that won't gamble?

Another thing

I was reading this again , and wanted to say one more thing ( prob not the last).

I do enjoy gambling quite a bit, because it puts pressure on me to perform. Every time is a new test to find out what you got.

I DO NOT respect the trash talking player at the local bar or pool room who will not play for the cash. I will call these guys out. I am talking about the guys who will constantly talk up how good they are. You may play them, and they are always acting as if they are hustling or holding back, but WILL NOT make a game! The comment " I don't want to take your money" comes out of their mouth. I will say " why not, I will take yours!".

The thing I like about gambling is that it takes away all of the excuses!! You can't convince me that you did not feel like trying in a set for $100. That is why the money means something. To me it is not about making money, it is about finding out something.

This just happened a week ago, I was out playing with my APA team. We were just practicing because we had a forfeit. I was on the challenge table and staying on it for many games. A guy from one of the other teams gets his turn, and I beat him. He is talking crap and trying to shark me and everything. I couldn't believe it. I asked him " you are trying to shark me , on a PRACTICE game? REALLY?" I proceeded to win, and the guy just kept acting like I was getting lucky. "YOU only won that game because I gave you ball in hand on the 5". I said " Yeah, I know. The winner is the one who makes less mistakes. That's how it works!" .

Anyway, this kind of thing goes on for a while, and I finally ask him if he wants to play for something. "Oh no, I don't play for money".

Well, I told him " Well, where I come from you don't talk trash unless you can back it up. See I CAN talk , because I am willing to put down the cash. I may be full of S#@T, but at least I believe what I am saying more that you. I could be dead wrong, but I will prove that at least I believe it. You can't say the same thing!"


These are the kind of players who deserve to be disrespected for not having any gamble. I think this is where some of the attitudes come from.

This kind of thing should NEVER be confused with a top world class player who has more than proven their skill under tough competitive situations among the best available players.

Or, for that matter, someone who just loves the game for its own sake, but does not gamble. Some people honestly feel like it cheapens the game in a way. I can understand that, though I disagree. HOWEVER, I do believe that if you take this stance you lose your right to stand up and talk trash to the money players. I don't see how you can have your cake and eat it too. Besides, trash talking should be a part of the game that cheapens it just as much as the gambling, so it is an all or nothing proposition. If you do not want to be a part of that aspect, then stay away. Don't go halfway, THEN get all " I respect the game too much" on me!:thumbup:


Just more fuel for the fire


Jw

Roy Steffensen said:

Are you sure that Shane won't gamble anymore? Because I think you are wrong, unless you can prove it.

As a matter of fact, Shane will gamble $ 5,000 this coming Wednesday, against Scott Frost, broadcasted live at TAR. I guess Cuetec knows about that...

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You are right, I'm an idiot.

If gambling gets you respect, and is so respectful, then why is it, as soon as a player gets a couple of sponsors, they make him stop gambling, because it projects a low life image? Many are not allowed to gamble for that reason.

Some players seem to thrive on the thrill of gambling and are much better at this than at tourney play which they find boring and slow.

Mark Tadd was such an example, who had all the skills to be a world champion, but he lacked patience and the desire to be a champion. He would lose early, some said on purpose, to be able to get to the back room and get action and maybe a spot. Then poker lured him totally away which is non stop gambling.

Many such gamblers, at pool or poker, are addicted to this the same as being hooked to a drug. Most do not know that this is a form of sickness and there is help for them. http://www.gamblersanonymous.org/qna.html

The alkie will tell you, that you are a poo see if you don't drink with him.
The addicted gambler, will call you a poo see if you wont gamble with him. Its the same thing.

I believe that gambling now and then on your game helps steel your nerves and teaches you to win and how to close. Always playing hew haw does not get it and does not teach you winning under fire. Gambling for the table time, or a beer, 10 or 20 a set if you can afford it, now and then, is one thing. Probably good. Gambling for your paycheck and you lose and baby has no food is another. If all you do is gamble when you play, then you are probably addicted and in need of help.

Having a drink or two is good for you. Drinking a quart a night means you are, or are becoming an addicted alcoholic. So its all about control and not becoming compulsize on anything.

Some of the Tin cup heros, frankly do not do well playing with their own cash. Some only play will on OPM.

It takes two seperate skills for sure, and some players do both well.

Because a pro will not gamble, and beating him up because of that, I do not think that is fair. It's only the gamblers who do that, any way. The regular fan base could care less.

I might be wrong, but the euro players are here on work visa status alot of them when there in the states, so the goverment if they get a bug up there a@& they can deport for gambling and keep all moneys. :angry:

shawnbarley said:

If gambling gets you respect, and is so respectful, then why is it, as soon as a player gets a couple of sponsors, they make him stop gambling, because it projects a low life image? Many are not allowed to gamble for that reason.

Some players seem to thrive on the thrill of gambling and are much better at this than at tourney play which they find boring and slow.

Mark Tadd was such an example, who had all the skills to be a world champion, but he lacked patience and the desire to be a champion. He would lose early, some said on purpose, to be able to get to the back room and get action and maybe a spot. Then poker lured him totally away which is non stop gambling.

Many such gamblers, at pool or poker, are addicted to this the same as being hooked to a drug. Most do not know that this is a form of sickness and there is help for them. http://www.gamblersanonymous.org/qna.html

The alkie will tell you, that you are a poo see if you don't drink with him.
The addicted gambler, will call you a poo see if you wont gamble with him. Its the same thing.

I believe that gambling now and then on your game helps steel your nerves and teaches you to win and how to close. Always playing hew haw does not get it and does not teach you winning under fire. Gambling for the table time, or a beer, 10 or 20 a set if you can afford it, now and then, is one thing. Probably good. Gambling for your paycheck and you lose and baby has no food is another. If all you do is gamble when you play, then you are probably addicted and in need of help.

Having a drink or two is good for you. Drinking a quart a night means you are, or are becoming an addicted alcoholic. So its all about control and not becoming compulsize on anything.

Some of the Tin cup heros, frankly do not do well playing with their own cash. Some only play will on OPM.

It takes two seperate skills for sure, and some players do both well.

Because a pro will not gamble, and beating him up because of that, I do not think that is fair. It's only the gamblers who do that, any way. The regular fan base could care less.

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I agree with some of your points.

Gambling has hurt THE IMAGE of pool. That is the main reason for the lack of sponsors. It is because gambling is so ingrained to THE IMAGE of pool.

Golf has probably just as much gambling in it, but it is not a part of THE IMAGE of golf. Golf has a squeky clean IMAGE. This is not to be confused with THE REALITY of things. I am sure MUCH more money is won and lost on a golf course on any given day, than in a pool room.

It is unfortunate that it is this way, but it is.

I do not believe it is purely the fact that gambling occurs, it is the whole image of pool and gambling. Pool gambling takes place in a dimly lit, smokey, den of iniquity. You may have to fight your way out even if you win.

Golf is played in the sunshine, wearing bright goofy clothes and a sweater tied around your neck at a private country club.

Reality aside, this is how many think differently of the two games.



Jw

Where did this idea start that "European" players don't gamble? Some of them are always matching up all the time. When I lived in Germany there was always action at every tournament I went to.

Ralf, Thorsten, and Jasmin don't gamble but they don't represent all of Europe. Ralf is the consumate professional and IF half the pool players in the world with his talent would follow his example of how to handle their business then they would be fairly set as far as income - although the trade off would be pretty much never being home and platinum air miles status.

Jasmin also treats this as a business and is pretty much the only professional who travels with a coach to all of her events.

Thorsten I only know casually but he treats the game as a sport and grew up under the German league system with Ralf as a role model.

Tournament Players vs. Gamblers

Tournament player, Gamblers, totally two different bread of players. From what I've seen in my history in the game, gamblers do not make good tournament players and vise-versa. When a gambler is in a match he doesn't have to show his speed all the time, depending on his opponents speed. I've seen world champion loose to a good gambler, and on the other hand the same gambler never do good in a tournament.

Nothing against a guy not wanting to gamble, but I believe that the gambler has the upper hand if someone put up the money for any non gambling world champion to play. Also I've seen a lot of great gamblers loose their drive and killer instinct by going to tournament play. I watched CJ Wiley destroy Johnny Archer twice when he was world champion and player of the decade.

Yes, the gambler will win major tournaments sometimes but they can't stay atop the field as you would think.

Chris Bartrum is a fine example, he doesn't fair well in tournaments, but put $10,000 and make the game right and he is hard too beat.

shawnbarley said:

Many are not allowed to gamble for that reason.

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I am curious, I know a few pro's. Would you please make a list of pro's who do not gamble because they are expressly forbidden to by sponsors ?

Let me make a partial list of pro's who have played or have talked about matching up in some sort of capacity:

Shane
Johnny
Earl
Mika
Jeanette
Alex
Efren
Francisco
Stevie
Oscar
Morra
Sarah
Appleton
Hatch
.......and believe it or not the word is that if he gets staked into a challenge match on TAR.....Ralf Souquet.

and there are a bunch more.

So just exactly what pro's are forbidden? For that matter how about just listing pro's that make over $10K a year hard cash from their "sponsor" ?

I think some people in this subject have used wishful thinking in place of hard facts as a point in their argument.

JCIN said:

.......and believe it or not the word is that if he gets staked into a challenge match on TAR.....Ralf Souquet.

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Ralf and I talked about this a year ago and he did say that if matches were done in a proper way, referee, with advertising, live-streaming etc. he could be willing to do something on TAR.

Ralf and Niels did put up 500 Euro each in a race to 13 match during Weert Open a couple of years ago. It was advertised as a challenge match in 10-ball between the best player from Germany and Netherland, lots of spectators and the room-owner put up 500 in added money.

Niels is a gambler, and accepted sidebets, something Ralf would never do. Ralf won 13-4, btw, and I lost money because I bet on Niels. lol

There are only a few players that have ever played just as well in both tournaments and gambling that I know of. Lassiter, Worst, and Reyes. Those three seemed to be nightmares for their opponents regardless of the format. You can maybe add Sigel but I still think he was a little better at tournaments than gambling. Strickland used to be a great gambler until he stopped.

smokeandapancak said:

Ralph is a stand up guy... very nice.. .. and a professional in every sense of the word.

Germans dont gamble.. ( on the whole)... just how it is. To use that fact as a slight against their game and/or heart.. grasping at straws plain and simple.

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Are you kidding? I was in Germany in the early 90's and won a ton. They would come right off he chair and play, never ask for a spot and not quit till they were broke. Toby won like $50,000, so did Jimmy Reid and David Mattock I believe. I think Big Bob may also have gone there as well. The Germans got so beat on by Americans after a while they would not play under any circumstances if you were an American. In the beginning though it was unbelievable. You didn't know what to think, they just got up there and played for like a 100 Marks a game right out of the box. I am talking guys who could hardly make a ball. The never quit thing was what I could not understand, even after it was obvious they could not win.
In fact Germany was the only place in Europe you could get played. In France I was threatened with arrest when I asked if anyone wanted to play. The English would not play at all either.

You said:
I'd be damned if this is the situation to act like a pussy. You may learn something. Your attention may be on him for the entire match...from my experience this is a good thing and worth the 150 or whatever you may choose to lose to him.


THIS, I do not get. You toss 150 to this roadie, all you learn is how to rack and lose, and that you are a sucker. The ones who put this kind of story out, are the ones trying to sell you suckers, into losing to them, when you have no chance to really win. Trying to make you think, losing is good for your game? All you learn how to do, is support that roadie for the day and make his nut so he won't starve.

Give that 150 to a real good teaching pro and get 3 hours of lessons and learn how to win? Put it into good DVD's on how to play better, buy books with it. You could go up to one of the better players in town and say, here is $150 cash, play with me for four hours, show me what I am doing wrong and how you are beating me. I would bet they would all jump on this and there, you really might learn something.

These roadies try to shame you into playing. DO NOT, FALL FOR THEIR CON.

shawnbarley said:

You said:
I'd be damned if this is the situation to act like a pussy. You may learn something. Your attention may be on him for the entire match...from my experience this is a good thing and worth the 150 or whatever you may choose to lose to him.


THIS, I do not get. You toss 150 to this roadie, all you learn is how to rack and lose, and that you are a sucker. The ones who put this kind of story out, are the ones trying to sell you suckers, into losing to them, when you have no chance to really win. Trying to make you think, losing is good for your game? All you learn how to do, is support that roadie for the day and make his nut so he won't starve.

Give that 150 to a real good teaching pro and get 3 hours of lessons and learn how to win? Put it into good DVD's on how to play better, buy books with it. You could go up to one of the better players in town and say, here is $150 cash, play with me for four hours, show me what I am doing wrong and how you are beating me. I would bet they would all jump on this and there, you really might learn something.

These roadies try to shame you into playing. DO NOT, FALL FOR THEIR CON.

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Then after you spend a $150.00 on lessons and spending another $1000.00 on table time learning practicing, when do you decide to match up? What is the point of learning to play if you are never going to put yourself to the test? Don't you even want to test yourself? You can't always wait for some kind of guarantee you will win before you get up the nerve to play. You may surprise yourself and find that road player has nothing on you. Beating a good player or even breaking even with a tough player can be a real confidence building lesson you can never get in practice.

At some point you have to actually get in the arena. Even the guys who play in tournaments, it isn't really the same. Nothing like a 16 hour session with a tough player to feel like you can play. Also, that kind of play can help to prepare you for the tournament scene, but not the other way around. There is a difference between putting up a small entry fee in a tournament and playing, what I am afraid I have to call, "Playing for real".

macguy said:

Are you kidding? I was in Germany in the early 90's and won a ton. They would come right off he chair and play, never ask for a spot and not quit till they were broke. Toby won like $50,000, so did Jimmy Reid and David Mattock I believe. I think Big Bob may also have gone there as well. The Germans got so beat on by Americans after a while they would not play under any circumstances if you were an American. In the beginning though it was unbelievable. You didn't know what to think, they just got up there and played for like a 100 Marks a game right out of the box. I am talking guys who could hardly make a ball. The never quit thing was what I could not understand, even after it was obvious they could not win.
In fact Germany was the only place in Europe you could get played. In France I was threatened with arrest when I asked if anyone wanted to play. The English would not play at all either.

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Did we ever bump into each other? I was doing a lot of running around in Germany in the early to late 90s. I was in the Air Force in Germany from 89-91. I played in few base things and a military 14.1 tournament somewhere around Frankfurt. Remember Ron Gisel and Chin Chance?

I played a lot outside the bases. Went all over Germany. Especially after I got out of the Air Force.

I found action in England, Belgium, Switzerland and Holland. Didn't see much in France. In Turkey the locals in the pool room offered to go get Semih Sayginer to play me .

In Italy they only gambled on a game involving four balls and pins where you had to score points by pocketing balls, caroming balls into pocket, caroming balls into balls and knocking down pins. And if you did all those things in one stroke then you automatically won the game and everyone paid you. I did it once.

I played a LOT of last pocket eight ball with Italians, Turks, Romainians, etc... for a lot of money per game - the two highest being $400 a game and one set five ahead for $1500. For some reason the foreigners in Germany LOVE to play last pocket eight ball. Jimmy Reid went there and was challenged to play LP 8-Ball by a top player and they quit him when he ran out the first three games.

Anyway, there did used to be plenty of gamble in Germany and the parts of Europe that I have been to. I guess it's like anything that you need to know the scene to find the good stuff.

macguy said:

Are you kidding? I was in Germany in the early 90's and won a ton. They would come right off he chair and play, never ask for a spot and not quit till they were broke. Toby won like $50,000, so did Jimmy Reid and David Mattock I believe. I think Big Bob may also have gone there as well. The Germans got so beat on by Americans after a while they would not play under any circumstances if you were an American. In the beginning though it was unbelievable. You didn't know what to think, they just got up there and played for like a 100 Marks a game right out of the box. I am talking guys who could hardly make a ball. The never quit thing was what I could not understand, even after it was obvious they could not win.
In fact Germany was the only place in Europe you could get played. In France I was threatened with arrest when I asked if anyone wanted to play. The English would not play at all either.

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Very interesting, considering the post about the Germans not playing for money.

Papa Red said:

Tournament player, Gamblers, totally two different bread of players. From what I've seen in my history in the game, gamblers do not make good tournament players and vise-versa. When a gambler is in a match he doesn't have to show his speed all the time, depending on his opponents speed. I've seen world champion loose to a good gambler, and on the other hand the same gambler never do good in a tournament.

Nothing against a guy not wanting to gamble, but I believe that the gambler has the upper hand if someone put up the money for any non gambling world champion to play. Also I've seen a lot of great gamblers loose their drive and killer instinct by going to tournament play. I watched CJ Wiley destroy Johnny Archer twice when he was world champion and player of the decade.

Yes, the gambler will win major tournaments sometimes but they can't stay atop the field as you would think.

Chris Bartrum is a fine example, he doesn't fair well in tournaments, but put $10,000 and make the game right and he is hard too beat.

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Buddy Hall is an example of a player that came off the road and started winning tournaments. A top player is a top player.

IF Ralf Souquet wanted to gamble then he would be a top money player, same for Thorsten. If a guy can bring his A-Game against top players in match after match tournament after tournament then there is no reason to think that they couldn't do the same against a top player in longer sessions.

I think that one thing that is an underlying current in this thread that is confusing the issue is hustling vs. gambling.

Two top players who match up even for stakes is truly just a two man tournament. It's a boxing match with one winner and one loser.

Hustling on the other hand is the art of matching up so that you get an advantage, be it mental only or physical. It's the art of making a lopsided game seem fair. It's the hustling aspect of the game that people outside the game associate with unsavory behavior bordering on criminal. Billiard texts have dealt with this issue for more than 150 years. Gambling on sports and games is nothing new. And anywhere there is gambling there are bound to be hustlers, be it in cards, backgammon, chess, golf, etc... I am sure in the history of Scrabble that there have been Scrabble hustlers.

There is nothing wrong with roaming the world looking for money games. There is everything wrong with roaming the world looking to practically steal from people. The hustler very often lies to entice his victim and it is at that precise moment where it becomes a robbery. When you feed false information to a person in order to get them to make a favorable decision in your benefit you are conning them.

If you simply watch a guy play and know that you can beat him easily and you ask him to play and he says yes WITHOUT further inquiry then you have done nothing wrong. That is not hustling. When however you act drunk, you stall, and outright lie then you are cheating the guy out of seeing your true speed and the ability to make a decision based on accurate information. And yes the victim is also to blame because he PROBABLY (surely) wouldn't be playing if he didn't feel he could win. But that right there sums it up - if the opponent wouldn't play if they knew your true speed then you are hustling.

And it's HUSTLING (often confused with Gambling) that gives pool a darker taint in some people's eyes.

However in the modern world I personally do not feel that corporate heads are in their boardrooms deciding not to sponsor pool because of any association with gambling. They are not sponsoring pool because pool itself has NO REACH. In places where pool does have SOME reach it gets major names as sponsors. Think Guiness Tour. And we all know that the Philippines celebrates it's money games and money players.

But I do agree that situations like the tournament director running a betting book on matches is a complete turnoff for potential corporate sponsors who might not want their names associated with potential scandals involving match fixing etc... Although on the flip side of that the sponsor is probably not going to get any negative press from it and they get more visibility if the news reports the event using their name. As in, "today at the Coca Cola 9-Ball Classic Tournament Director Joe Blow was arrested on charges of running an illegal betting parlor and fixing matches....promoter Burly Bigman has promptly fired Blow and denied all knowledge of the illegal betting. The tournament continues with the established champions still in the lead for the title." "Seven time Champion Ralf Souquet says, 'dey neva did come to me and ask me to do anything because everyone knows I do not gamble. Probably there was more pressure on the gamblers in dis situation because dey had to think about how much to win or lose by instead of just playing ze game."

Well said,John, well said!!!

Thinking about Ralf Souquet and how he would do if he started matching up against top money players. Well, I for one think that such an environment would suite him even better. I can't imagine how he could possibly fail. With longer matches he would prevail more often than not. He knows how to pocket the balls and position the white, money on the line won't change that. He can handle big arena pressure, world championships finals with tv cameras and such...something very few even get the priviledge to experience.
Also, you can always say that Ralf gets beat at Eurotour events by lesser players because of short races, and in fact he does...but he doesn't bark at those players after the match, does he? lol

I have felt pressure in both tournament and playing for money, but to be honest I think the tourney pressure to me is not as bad. Most of the time when I am playing for money it is not too pressure packed as I usually have my cash in the middle with the best of it, call it being a locksmith or whatever but when your playing for money its about the money so matching up well is key.

As for challenging yourself to play better players that is why I play in tournaments. I play 2 tournaments a week and play for money a few times a week also, I feel both help your game tremendously even if it is $20 a game one pocket or cheap sets of 9 ball. I just love pool even if there is nothing on it but bragging rights also, it is a great game. :smile:

macguy said:

Are you kidding? I was in Germany in the early 90's and won a ton. They would come right off he chair and play, never ask for a spot and not quit till they were broke. Toby won like $50,000, so did Jimmy Reid and David Mattock I believe. I think Big Bob may also have gone there as well. The Germans got so beat on by Americans after a while they would not play under any circumstances if you were an American. In the beginning though it was unbelievable. You didn't know what to think, they just got up there and played for like a 100 Marks a game right out of the box. I am talking guys who could hardly make a ball. The never quit thing was what I could not understand, even after it was obvious they could not win.
In fact Germany was the only place in Europe you could get played. In France I was threatened with arrest when I asked if anyone wanted to play. The English would not play at all either.

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I guess you guys stole all their money

You can find games after folks know who you are .. but it doesnt compare to Stateside action.