The start of an interesting journey or "at least I'm better than that guy"

bdorman

Dead money
Silver Member
Less than 4,000 shots to master? You're low.

Just counting the basic shots, I'm at 4,032.

Angle: Let's assume there are 24 practical cut angles. Sure, you can slice a cue ball by more or fewer angles but let's agree on 24 as a practical compromise.

Spin: Using only full-tip increments there are 21 tip placements in a two-tip maximum CB hit. (If you think there are 24, it's because you've counted the centerball hit 4 times instead of just once).

Speed: This one's really open to argument, but I'm going with 8 speeds based on 1/2-table length increments up to four full table lengths. If you think there are more or fewer speeds then simply substitute it for the third number, below:

24 x 21 x 8 = 4,032.

And we've haven't even gotten to jump and masse shots yet :grin:

BTW, :rolleyes: is the sarcastic icon

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::grin:

In conclusion, if you master one of these shots every day it will take you 11 years and 14 days (including the three "leap" years).
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, the expert's mind there are few

Less than 4,000 shots to master? You're low.

Just counting the basic shots, I'm at 4,032.

Angle: Let's assume there are 24 practical cut angles. Sure, you can slice a cue ball by more or fewer angles but let's agree on 24 as a practical compromise.

Spin: Using only full-tip increments there are 21 tip placements in a two-tip maximum CB hit. (If you think there are 24, it's because you've counted the centerball hit 4 times instead of just once).

Speed: This one's really open to argument, but I'm going with 8 speeds based on 1/2-table length increments up to four full table lengths. If you think there are more or fewer speeds then simply substitute it for the third number, below:

24 x 21 x 8 = 4,032.

And we've haven't even gotten to jump and masse shots yet :grin:

BTW, :rolleyes: is the sarcastic icon

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::grin:

In conclusion, if you master one of these shots every day it will take you 11 years and 14 days (including the three "leap" years).


That's funny, just like anything in life it's all about perception. :thumbup:

I have a different perception of pool's difficulty. The more advanced I became the LESS shots I had to know and understand. Beginners think there's thousands of shots, just like people unfamiliar with music structure think a song is just thousands of notes. The fact is I ran my first rack of 8 Ball when I was 9 years old, and my first rack of 15 ball rotation at age 13....If someone would have told me there was thousands of shots when I was 13 I would have thought they were kidding... now it's even more silly.

I'm not sure how to calculate all the shots, the one thing I do know is how to see just ONE. If you have a consistent pre shot routine and understand that the game is ALL ABOUT hitting the cue ball with a leather tip, the game starts to open up and the learning flows. There's really only 8 angles, 9 tip targets and three speeds.....and a couple of variations on these themes.

'The Game is the Teacher' or 'The Game is a Confusing array of thousands of shots' - I believe we can all decide for ourselves, however, keep an open mind, it's MUCH easier than it appears at first. ;)

306024_629282713764435_78614696_n.jpg
 
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frankncali

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think I will give this a shot.

Similar to Fargo. My buddy and I liked Fargo because after a few times we could play and developed a spot between us. Made it a little more interesting.
 

PC_John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Is this the "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance baffle them with BS" thread? :confused:
 

naji

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Less than 4,000 shots to master? You're low.

Just counting the basic shots, I'm at 4,032.

Angle: Let's assume there are 24 practical cut angles. Sure, you can slice a cue ball by more or fewer angles but let's agree on 24 as a practical compromise.

Spin: Using only full-tip increments there are 21 tip placements in a two-tip maximum CB hit. (If you think there are 24, it's because you've counted the centerball hit 4 times instead of just once).

Speed: This one's really open to argument, but I'm going with 8 speeds based on 1/2-table length increments up to four full table lengths. If you think there are more or fewer speeds then simply substitute it for the third number, below:

24 x 21 x 8 = 4,032.

And we've haven't even gotten to jump and masse shots yet :grin:

BTW, :rolleyes: is the sarcastic icon

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::grin:

In conclusion, if you master one of these shots every day it will take you 11 years and 14 days (including the three "leap" years).

Who said pool was easy, a pool teachers spend say 40 hrs to teach pool to a new player, but it takes years to master applying the knowledge; and many years after that to try to be a pro and never reach there, i wonder why!
On a serious note, no one talked about how much it takes to master a shot or all 4000 shots. I have not released much of specific information about the 4000 shots system and i do not intend to release anything at all commercially or to any forum.
 

StraightPoolIU

Brent
Silver Member
For the Q Skill Rating can someone explain to me the point if the rule that says the break has to be from the headspot only? Is it just for consistency sake to make the scores comparable?
 

elvicash

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For the Q Skill Rating can someone explain to me the point if the rule that says the break has to be from the headspot only? Is it just for consistency sake to make the scores comparable?

I missed that part of the rules IU. I guess it is just a rule so all play the same. I like the options for the shot after the break. I will do a couple of rounds and post up. I shot a few racks myself last night but did not keep score.

Is there a scoring guideline so you can see where a strong player is and where the pros would be . I expect a pro would be close to 15 per rack so 150 or higher avg. 120 or better is probably a pretty good player.
 

StraightPoolIU

Brent
Silver Member
I missed that part of the rules IU. I guess it is just a rule so all play the same. I like the options for the shot after the break. I will do a couple of rounds and post up. I shot a few racks myself last night but did not keep score.

Is there a scoring guideline so you can see where a strong player is and where the pros would be . I expect a pro would be close to 15 per rack so 150 or higher avg. 120 or better is probably a pretty good player.

Here are the official rules and the scoring guidelines.

1. Rack fifteen balls on the Foot Spot, in any order, and place the cue ball ON the Head Spot. Break the balls. If you miscue or miss the cue ball completely, it is a foul. Re-Rack, break again and subtract one from your score. If you miscue and contact the rack, you may choose to continue shooting, leaving the balls where they lie and not take a foul.

2. If you scratch on the break, it is a minus 1, unless the cue ball goes off the table, then it is a minus 2. After a scratch on the break, you may place the cue ball on either the Head Spot of Foot Spot and shoot any ball on the table, or place the cue ball anywhere behind the Head String and shoot any ball above the Head String. On the break, if you scratch or the cue ball goes off the table, all balls made on the break stay down but do not count as points. If you do not scratch on the break, then all balls made on the break count as one point each.

3. After the break, if you do not have a shot or do not like the shot you have, you may choose one of three options. (a) Place the cue ball anywhere behind the Head String and shoot any ball above the Head String. (b) Place the cue ball on either the Head Spot or the Foot Spot and shoot any ball. (c) Place the rack over the cue ball (where it lies) and move the cue ball anywhere inside the rack and shoot any ball. All of the options noted above are a penalty and incur a minus 1.

4. After the break, whether you made a ball or not, proceed to shoot, calling each shot. Try to run the table, shoting the ball in any order UNTIL THERE ARE FIVE BALLS REMAINING. If you do pocket ten balls, then the last five balls must be shot IN ROTATION (in numerical order starting with the lowest number ball). If you MISS A SHOT, the rack is OVER. There are no second chances or mulligans! The first ten balls score 1 point each, and the last five balls score 2 points each. On each rack you can score a MAXIMUM of 20 points.

5. When there are six balls on the table and you pocket two or more balls in one shot, they all stay down and are each worth 1 point. Shoot the remaining balls in rotation, in which each ball is worth 2 points each.

6. Ten racks comprise a session. In one session you can score a maximum of 200 points. The score from FIVE SESSIONS (50 racks) determines your Official Rating. The highest possible Official Rating is a perfect score of 1000 points.

Here is the Rating System:

0-150 - Recreational Player 151-300 - Intermediate Player 301-450 - Advanced Player 451-600- Developing Pro 601-800 - Semi-Pro 801-900 - Pro 901-1000 - Touring Pro

I'm not really a big fan of their rating terminology. I think assigning letter grades might have made more sense. For example how can anyone agree on the differences in the different levels of "pro "?
 
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trob

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A friend turned me on to the 16 critical shot a few years a go in the pro players hand book and my game sky rocketed! seriously once I knew these shots I could adjust to any variation of them that came up and they come up all the time. It's amazing how complicated the game was to me until I learned them. Then all of it came down to the lines around the table that seem to come up over and over again.



That's funny, just like anything in life it's all about perception. :thumbup:

I have a different perception of pool's difficulty. The more advanced I became the LESS shots I had to know and understand. Beginners think there's thousands of shots, just like people unfamiliar with music structure think a song is just thousands of notes. The fact is I ran my first rack of 8 Ball when I was 9 years old, and my first rack of 15 ball rotation at age 13....If someone would have told me there was thousands of shots when I was 13 I would have thought they were kidding... now it's even more silly.

I'm not sure how to calculate all the shots, the one thing I do know is how to see just ONE. If you have a consistent pre shot routine and understand that the game is ALL ABOUT hitting the cue ball with a leather tip, the game starts to open up and the learning flows. There's really only 8 angles, 9 tip targets and three speeds.....and a couple of variations on these themes.

'The Game is the Teacher' or 'The Game is a Confusing array of thousands of shots' - I believe we can all decide for ourselves, however, keep an open mind, it's MUCH easier than it appears at first. ;)

306024_629282713764435_78614696_n.jpg
 

driven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You use this "4000 shots" like it's some kind of proven number. Can you show us something to back this up, or is it just a number that proves how difficult pool is to someone?

Honestly, if I really thought there was 4000 shots I had to "master" I would never play another game of pool. It's not that complicated, it's like tennis or golf, you have a few themes (of strokes) and a few variations (of speeds).

The obstacle that keeps many players, new and old, from seeing how simple pool can be is the object balls. If you saw a champion player play, and didn't see anything but him hitting the cue ball (without seeing the OB contact) you would start to see the simplicity in pocket billiards.

For the most part we are hitting the cue ball straight, cuing it in one of four different ways to throw or deflect the path slightly. The beginner sees many variables each time to the table, the champion sees only one or two.

I guess we could say we take over 4000 breaths a day too, however, the key is to make each one similar to the one before....unless someone has respiratory issues, then it may seem like 4000 breaths a day. ;)

"It's easy to make pool difficult, and difficult to make pool easy" - CJ Wiley

what you just said, was, imho, spot on
thx
steven
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
The game does open up when we allow the game to be the teacher

A friend turned me on to the 16 critical shot a few years a go in the pro players hand book and my game sky rocketed! seriously once I knew these shots I could adjust to any variation of them that came up and they come up all the time. It's amazing how complicated the game was to me until I learned them. Then all of it came down to the lines around the table that seem to come up over and over again.

You are on the right track, it's all about grouping the themes and understanding the variations. When I'm playing very seriously I use one or two basic themes and a few variations to create every shot I need. Players get "stuck" thinking about exceptions to what I'm saying and others "see the light" and start thinking in similarities.
keep-it-simple-stupid-2.jpg


The game does open up when we allow the game to be the teacher, and this is done by using STRICT guidelines of the basic fundamentals.

Simplicity will always rule over complicated, remember the "KISS" (keep it simple stupid) system used in many other disciplines......pool is no exception, don't let anyone pull the "complicated wool" over your eyes. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 

Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
Beats the fire out of me. I just got randomly bit by a bug I guess....




Bug bites are ALL different. INITIAL....Passions in anything are like mushrooms and square footage/or being 16 yr old. The more exposure you get, the easier it is to realize where your sole takes you, if thats your Tiller. But if its something else it's more difficult to steer the course, or keep at it. Pool is Butt face reality, 24/7....and it forms character, or beats it up. Never know, you may be the next Magician. Wish U the best.
 

Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
Is this the "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance baffle them with BS" thread? :confused:


Remember the rule is, you must act like you in a pool room with all responses. Does that:help::duck:

Now, who made that rule? ;)
 

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
On a serious note, no one talked about how much it takes to master a shot or all 4000 shots. I have not released much of specific information about the 4000 shots system and i do not intend to release anything at all commercially or to any forum.

On a less serious note, I'm gonna file this under "thank god for small favors" :D
 

the420trooper

Free T-Rex
Silver Member
Someone has to say it eventually. Hell, maybe someone has. But this seems to be the time and thread to do so considering it was started by a "new guy."

Just ignore anything posted by naji.

I don't know him, so I won't go so far as to say he's clueless, but at the very least he is incapable of communicating his thoughts to those of us who speak English. It's not a knock against him, per se. He may be a hell of a player. He may know more than anyone else on the forums. The bottom line is no one knows because he can't communicate his thoughts in a language we understand (his primary language is not English). What he does communicate is often either wrong or complete gibberish. He argues with other very knowledgeable posters, but never makes his point. Ignore him.

To add to that, take everything with a grain of salt, but keep your mind open. You'll be surprised by some of the things you can learn from people you don't think have anything to offer.
 

ScottK

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
To add to that, take everything with a grain of salt, but keep your mind open. You'll be surprised by some of the things you can learn from people you don't think have anything to offer.

Excellent point to make; I agree completely.
 

BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
To the original poster: that drill you chose is pretty hard. You might consider something easier, like breaking a rack of 6 or 7 ball, taking ball in hand, and tracking how often you get out. At least you'll be able to "win" more often. Otherwise I'd just get frustrated.
 

mrcymstr

Registered
To the original poster: that drill you chose is pretty hard. You might consider something easier, like breaking a rack of 6 or 7 ball, taking ball in hand, and tracking how often you get out. At least you'll be able to "win" more often. Otherwise I'd just get frustrated.

Yes this is far above my skill level but I'm not using it as a drill as much as I'm using it as a measure to track my overall progress. I have other drills that are much more suited to my skill level which I actually practice with. I simply am not posting the results to those other minor drills.
 

naji

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
To add to that, take everything with a grain of salt, but keep your mind open. You'll be surprised by some of the things you can learn from people you don't think have anything to offer.

mmm.....I take what you are saying as a complement. I hope! Also thanks Scott K.
 
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