Ginacue pleads guilty
- Thread starter Shawn Armstrong
- Start date
Pleaded guilty after getting lengthy advice from his attorney(s) I'm sure.
" The charge can carry a 10-year maximum penalty, but Gutierrez is expected to receive a far lesser sentence in November, according to the U.S. Attorney’s Office."
I'm hoping no jail time. After all, the feds made their point. Cue makers seem to be dropping the use of Ivory.
I'm hoping no jail time. After all, the feds made their point. Cue makers seem to be dropping the use of Ivory.
I wish we knew more about the case? I mean if the customers pick up the cues in the USA I don't see how the cue maker has aided or abetted the export? Unless the cue maker deliberately wrote an invoice claiming the cues did not contain ivory or otherwise provided some paperwork intended to get the cues past customs I don't know how he could be guilty.
I have sold cues to people with ivory and told them flat out that they have to have it shipped to someone in the USA because I won't ship ivory out. I don't think that makes me liable as aiding them to smuggle ivory.
I do hope Ernie gets a very light sentence with no jail time. As much as I don't think that ivory is a material that we actually need to use any more I am of the opinion that the ivory used by American cue makers is all legal and that it's more of a paperwork avoidance issue than the actual smuggling of illegal material.
That said, I really know nothing about the case other than what the papers wrote so there could be a lot more to it.
48 cues with ivory in them. How much money do we think all those cues were worth? That's a tremendous loss for Chady if all of them were confiscated and gone.
I have sold cues to people with ivory and told them flat out that they have to have it shipped to someone in the USA because I won't ship ivory out. I don't think that makes me liable as aiding them to smuggle ivory.
I do hope Ernie gets a very light sentence with no jail time. As much as I don't think that ivory is a material that we actually need to use any more I am of the opinion that the ivory used by American cue makers is all legal and that it's more of a paperwork avoidance issue than the actual smuggling of illegal material.
That said, I really know nothing about the case other than what the papers wrote so there could be a lot more to it.
48 cues with ivory in them. How much money do we think all those cues were worth? That's a tremendous loss for Chady if all of them were confiscated and gone.
Underlying Contributing Factor Was Likely AB-96 (California)
I am entirely speculating but when I connect the dots, here's what I figure happened.
Ernie obviously violated the ivory ban.......the Federal version.......and he sold these
two guys sections of cues that were already underway or nearing completion.....or
basically any cue that he could not complete and finish before July 1, 2016 since that's
when the California ivory ban became effective.
At 75, Ernie was not intending to continue making cues much longer, regardless of his
decision to submit a plea of guilty to this offense. As a California cue-maker, he was
no longer able to make any cues using ivory, nor could he buy any more ivory, or ever
sell another cue that had any type or amount of ivory.......unless he closed his shop and
relocated outside of California.........at 75, Ernie wasn't about to do that and 7/1 was just
around the corner ........Ernie was going to stuck with a lot of cues worth a lot of money,
likely more than what they two guys paid too......Ernie was going to get nothing for any
of his cues after July 1, 2017......he could never sell them unless he either did one of two
things........closed shop in CA & relocate to another state if he wanted to continue making
cues or else quit cue-making and just sell his cues privately and being physically not in the
geographical boundaries of CA when the sale was actually consummated, ex., a cue show.
Sounds like Ernie was trying to unload his merchandise which appears to me was driven by
the CA ivory ban that took effect July 1, 2017. He was going to get stuck with a lot of valuable
cues underway and these guys made a offer that would solve Ernie's dilemma but he knew
these guys were foreign investors. They might have even done lots of business or certainly
they were familiar with each other.......doesn't look good for Ernie since he has admitted his
complicity in the crime.....this could be the harbinger of the end of a legendary's cue-maker.
I betcha if the CA ivory ban had never even happened, neither would have this criminal offense.
Matt B.
I am entirely speculating but when I connect the dots, here's what I figure happened.
Ernie obviously violated the ivory ban.......the Federal version.......and he sold these
two guys sections of cues that were already underway or nearing completion.....or
basically any cue that he could not complete and finish before July 1, 2016 since that's
when the California ivory ban became effective.
At 75, Ernie was not intending to continue making cues much longer, regardless of his
decision to submit a plea of guilty to this offense. As a California cue-maker, he was
no longer able to make any cues using ivory, nor could he buy any more ivory, or ever
sell another cue that had any type or amount of ivory.......unless he closed his shop and
relocated outside of California.........at 75, Ernie wasn't about to do that and 7/1 was just
around the corner ........Ernie was going to stuck with a lot of cues worth a lot of money,
likely more than what they two guys paid too......Ernie was going to get nothing for any
of his cues after July 1, 2017......he could never sell them unless he either did one of two
things........closed shop in CA & relocate to another state if he wanted to continue making
cues or else quit cue-making and just sell his cues privately and being physically not in the
geographical boundaries of CA when the sale was actually consummated, ex., a cue show.
Sounds like Ernie was trying to unload his merchandise which appears to me was driven by
the CA ivory ban that took effect July 1, 2017. He was going to get stuck with a lot of valuable
cues underway and these guys made a offer that would solve Ernie's dilemma but he knew
these guys were foreign investors. They might have even done lots of business or certainly
they were familiar with each other.......doesn't look good for Ernie since he has admitted his
complicity in the crime.....this could be the harbinger of the end of a legendary's cue-maker.
I betcha if the CA ivory ban had never even happened, neither would have this criminal offense.
Matt B.
John,
The article said 48 sections.....not 48 cues........that's why I thought these were cues he had not yet finished but would be shortly or were cues
he may have taken apart for easier packing which could have facilitated the smuggling.....doesn't matter.....there was obviously a lot of ivory in these designs.
"The arrests in April at Los Angeles International Airport of two Taiwan- bound men carrying almost four-dozen sections of sticks inlaid with ivory"
Huang Ching”Chady” Liu and Wen Shou Wei “Zen” Chen.........not exactly your household names in cue collecting.....Ernie isn't a dummy.
Matt B.
p.s. Tried sending you a PM but your box was full.....re: NY Yankees Tribute Cue Case
The article said 48 sections.....not 48 cues........that's why I thought these were cues he had not yet finished but would be shortly or were cues
he may have taken apart for easier packing which could have facilitated the smuggling.....doesn't matter.....there was obviously a lot of ivory in these designs.
"The arrests in April at Los Angeles International Airport of two Taiwan- bound men carrying almost four-dozen sections of sticks inlaid with ivory"
Huang Ching”Chady” Liu and Wen Shou Wei “Zen” Chen.........not exactly your household names in cue collecting.....Ernie isn't a dummy.
Matt B.
p.s. Tried sending you a PM but your box was full.....re: NY Yankees Tribute Cue Case
Was it a few cues with 48 "sections" of ivory or 48 cheap cues with LOTS of ivory to get rid of his supply?
The arrests were in April. So there goes the July 2016 theory.
justaplayer
Banned
The sale was 78k as remember. Chady tried to smuggle them through his luggage at LAX. What would one expect to happen?
If Ernie knew they were headed to Asia, his selling them makes him complicit. That's the law. I'm sure they had emails or texts confirming the sales. Pretty easy case.
After reading the 27 pages.. a lot of names were dropped, as was the Super Billiards Expo as a place to pick up cues....
LiberalsSuck
Click the above link for the report.... as said before this is a Federal Issue, not State...
JV
LiberalsSuck
Click the above link for the report.... as said before this is a Federal Issue, not State...
JV
Last edited:
justaplayer
Banned
He violated Federal laws not state.
He probably did liquidate the cues as described above, in advance of the state law changes.
Complete idiocy to show a bunch of cues into luggage you are checking through TSA. If you shipped them international mail you'd have almost no chance of getting in trouble....ship out anonymously and no bill of sale. Claim 100 value and don't insure them. Duh...
He probably did liquidate the cues as described above, in advance of the state law changes.
Complete idiocy to show a bunch of cues into luggage you are checking through TSA. If you shipped them international mail you'd have almost no chance of getting in trouble....ship out anonymously and no bill of sale. Claim 100 value and don't insure them. Duh...
Actually, it supports the theory, because April is before July. He could indeed have been trying to unload the stuff before the deadline.
Anyway, I don't like the attention this draws.
.
It was probably closer to 16 cues.
16 butts with ivory in them, plus 2 shafts each that had matching trim rings that also contained ivory. That would be 48 "sections" of cues.
Or it could have been 8 cues, with 2 shafts each and matching joint caps for all pieces.
Then again, the article says "almost 4 dozen sections of cues," so who knows what it actually was...
If you guys haven't done so already...read this document ^^
It's the whole investigation narrated in detail by the lead investigator.
( the original complaint filed that I retrieved from the court)
Ernie took the plea so he'll probably get a fine and probation.
He was guilty only in the sense that he knew they were leaving the country and didn't scream for the authorities.
justaplayer
Banned
Chady said he helped conceal the cues for transportation on international flight.
Chady sang like a bird....expect any cuemaker who has sold to him in recent years to be getting investigated. PC cues is going to do anything they can to avoid more prison time. This is far from over, more names will be charged.
ANYbody who has had dealings with him had better get their affairs in order.....NOW.
He did what 98% of people do when entrapped by the federal govt: Do what they say to get your free out of jail card.
Expect more. This one was too easy.
Jeff Livingston