CB and OB very close

BC21

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Was playing in a tough ring game with some great players the other day. One guy, who 20 or so years ago was considered one of the best players in the tri-state area, was shooting the 9ball. The cb was less than an inch from the 9, a cut shot of about 15°. He made the shot, then said those shots have always been guesswork for him, when the cb is so close to the ob.

I thought that was interesting, this great player who has beat plenty of pros back in his day, saying that he just guesses on those shots. Anybody else guess on these or do you have a good way of ensuring your aim is correct?
 
lfigueroa

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
BC21 said:
Was playing in a tough ring game with some great players the other day. One guy, who 20 or so years ago was considered one of the best players in the tri-state area, was shooting the 9ball. The cb was less than an inch from the 9, a cut shot of about 15°. He made the shot, then said those shots have always been guesswork for him, when the cb is so close to the ob.

I thought that was interesting, this great player who has beat plenty of pros back in his day, saying that he just guesses on those shots. Anybody else guess on these or do you have a good way of ensuring your aim is correct?
Click to expand...


Shoot it the same way I shot it the last time I made it.

A little more seriously, the up close shots can be tricky. And I'm always a bit surprised by how much throw you can get on them. But in the final analysis, like any other shot, you built a library of shots in your brain to call on when a shot inevitably resurfaces. And because you have to factor in position play, which changes things up, you just have to have a decent sense of what the physics of the game are.

Lou Figueroa
 
BC21

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
lfigueroa said:
Shoot it the same way I shot it the last time I made it.

A little more seriously, the up close shots can be tricky. And I'm always a bit surprised by how much throw you can get on them. But in the final analysis, like any other shot, you built a library of shots in your brain to call on when a shot inevitably resurfaces. And because you have to factor in position play, which changes things up, you just have to have a decent sense of what the physics of the game are.

Lou Figueroa
Click to expand...

I agree. And I suspect this guy's "guessing" was actually experience guided, not complete guesswork.

The thing is, from that close, there is such a limited amount of angle you can use anyway, because only a small portion of the ob's surface is available to hit as far as cutting the ball left or right. Throw can probably provide as much angle as an actual cut.
 
D

duckie

GregH
Silver Member
BC21 said:
I agree. And I suspect this guy's "guessing" was actually experience guided, not complete guesswork.

The thing is, from that close, there is such a limited amount of angle you can use anyway, because only a small portion of the ob's surface is available to hit as far as cutting the ball left or right. Throw can probably provide as much angle as an actual cut.
Click to expand...

No matter the distance between the OB and CB.....the contact areas of both balls are the same.

How much of the impact area that can be used is another matter. Impact area is the area on the OB where the CB can hit and the OB goes on the pocket.

The problem with OB and CB being close is the pocket can not be seen in your field of view.
 
Last edited:
8pack

8pack

They call me 2 county !
Silver Member
I always use the contact point to the pocket as my starting point. The amount of cut tells me where I place my tip in relationship to the contact point. Most of the time I add a little outside to the shot also.
 
B

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
My house pro recommends I stand higher up when shooting that shot
 
forabeer

forabeer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Anywhere but center cue ball to avoid a double hit when the balls are super close together.

An aiming thread without 3 initials :eek: Amazing.
 

Attachments

  • close.jpg
    close.jpg
    163.6 KB · Views: 490
goettlicher

goettlicher

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
forabeer said:
Anywhere but center cue ball to avoid a double hit when the balls are super close together.

An aiming thread without 3 initials :eek: Amazing.
Click to expand...

Good day forabeer.

I am confused on your statement about the double hit.
Could you explain your reasoning a little more.

Thanks you
randyg
 
BC21

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
goettlicher said:
Good day forabeer.

I am confused on your statement about the double hit.
Could you explain your reasoning a little more.

Thanks you
randyg
Click to expand...

I could be wrong, but I thought he was referring to the tip possibly striking the cb twice if shot straight on when the balls are very close.
 
forabeer

forabeer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yes sir. Sorry for the confusion. Exactly, on shots that are closer to straight in, and CB and OB are super close, avoiding center cue ball and a little "nip" stroke will avoid a double hit for me.
 

Attachments

  • close2.jpg
    close2.jpg
    35.4 KB · Views: 440
forabeer

forabeer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Someone may mention throw when using left or right English on cue ball. In that case I would not be aiming for the center of the pocket. Would adjust accordingly.
 
cookie man

cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
BC21 said:
I tried this about a hundred times when I first saw it a couple of years back. Never got comfortable with it, takes a lot of practice. Pretty cool shot if you spend enough time perfecting it though.
Click to expand...

Yea saw it in the main forum. I haven't worked much with it either, hard to do.
 
BC21

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
When the gap between cb and ob is about a quarter of an inch (0.25"), it allows for a pretty wide range of aiming options that produce nearly the same results, meaning you can aim anywhere between a 7/8 full hit to a thin 1/4 ball hit and produce the same shot angle, give or take a degree.

With a quarter inch separation, no matter how thin you hit the ob, it can only be sent a maximum of about 26° left or right of the centerline between the balls. So, based on the math, aiming for a 3/4 ball hit would send the ob away on a path only 1° different from the path created by a full ball hit. A 1/2 ball hit would send the ob down a path only 2° different than a full ball hit, and a quarter ball hit would send it off around 5°. This ignores CIT. Factoring in CIT the results are more likely to be like this: Aiming for the left 3/4 aim point on the ob would result in about a 2° to 3° shot to the left, depending on the exact amount of throw that occurs. The throw would be more of a factor than the slight 1° cut result. Applying some outside spin would keep the ob path closer to 0° off. Aiming for a half ball hit, or even as thin as a quarter ball hit would provide about the same results, a 2 to 5 degree cut angle countered with 2 to 5 degrees of CIT.

With a half inch gap between the balls, using any aim between a 7/8 and a half ball hit will also produce a fairly straight shot, meaning the ob will travel very nearly the same path it would if you shot it straight on, a full ball aim. A quarter ball hit would result in a small cut angle of about 5 to 7 degrees off from a straight on/full ball hit, accounting for throw.
 
Last edited:
Vorpal Cue

Vorpal Cue

Just galumping back
Silver Member
I did a post on close ball separation a few years ago. It shows the maximum angle vs. ball distance. There's a tip on using what I called the half distance passing point to help check your aiming accuracy.

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?454527&p=5900782#post5900782


When the balls are close it's possible to use the wrong side of the object ball and use spin to throw it in. Then you can get both balls to travel in the same direction for position.
 
Saturated Fats

Saturated Fats

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
BC21 said:
I tried this about a hundred times when I first saw it a couple of years back. Never got comfortable with it, takes a lot of practice. Pretty cool shot if you spend enough time perfecting it though.
Click to expand...

The variation where he elevates the butt for draw isn't too hard to master. I agree though that most of the variations will require considerable practice.
 
Dan White

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
BC21 said:
When the gap between cb and ob is about a quarter of an inch (0.25"), it allows for a pretty wide range of aiming options that produce nearly the same results, meaning you can aim anywhere between a 7/8 full hit to a thin 1/4 ball hit and produce the same shot angle, give or take a degree.

With a quarter inch separation, no matter how thin you hit the ob, it can only be sent a maximum of about 26° left or right of the centerline between the balls. So, based on the math, aiming for a 3/4 ball hit would send the ob away on a path only 1° different from the path created by a full ball hit. A 1/2 ball hit would send the ob down a path only 2° different than a full ball hit, and a quarter ball hit would send it off around 5°. This ignores CIT. Factoring in CIT the results are more likely to be like this: Aiming for the left 3/4 aim point on the ob would result in about a 2° to 3° shot to the left, depending on the exact amount of throw that occurs. The throw would be more of a factor than the slight 1° cut result. Applying some outside spin would keep the ob path closer to 0° off. Aiming for a half ball hit, or even as thin as a quarter ball hit would provide about the same results, a 2 to 5 degree cut angle countered with 2 to 5 degrees of CIT.

With a half inch gap between the balls, using any aim between a 7/8 and a half ball hit will also produce a fairly straight shot, meaning the ob will travel very nearly the same path it would if you shot it straight on, a full ball aim. A quarter ball hit would result in a small cut angle of about 5 to 7 degrees off from a straight on/full ball hit, accounting for throw.
Click to expand...

Dr. Dave did a fantastic paper on this awhile back. Long story short: If the ball separation is a little less than a tip diameter (easily checked) then you can't change the direction very easily. If it is greater than that then you can overcut the object ball and if it is less than that then you can't overcut it, only undercut. It's very powerful knowledge in predicting all kinds of ball movements, not just combinations with the cue ball. It's also great to know when the cue ball and ob are frozen to a rail and are close. You can shoot away from the rail and still pocket the ball.
 
B

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Dan White said:
Dr. Dave did a fantastic paper on this awhile back. Long story short: If the ball separation is a little less than a tip diameter (easily checked) then you can't change the direction very easily. If it is greater than that then you can overcut the object ball and if it is less than that then you can't overcut it, only undercut. It's very powerful knowledge in predicting all kinds of ball movements, not just combinations with the cue ball. It's also great to know when the cue ball and ob are frozen to a rail and are close. You can shoot away from the rail and still pocket the ball.
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing that,,,,,:thumbup:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top