Make Pool Great Again!

garczar said:

Wow. That's dirt cheap and definitely the exception and not the rule. Must be one small town. You think 50% of small town(what's small??) rents are that low? Find that hard to believe. Problem with too small of a town you don't have a big enough potential customer base. Kind of a two-edged sword.

Click to expand...

People who have only worked for a check go into some thriving business, and see the money filling the cash draw.

Problem is they do not understand the bills get paid first, and the owner is normally the last one to get paid if their is a profit.

Remember talking to Ken who owned Hardtimes in Bellflower, his take on own Hardtimes was it was not a gold mine.

He mention always have a supply of Toilet Seats, and Bathroom Mirrors, because of the constant vandalism.

Then you had those who came to watch the great one play at Hardtimes, and never spend a dime.

Owning a business is a 24 X 7 X 365 job, some people make money, most are lucky to make a living.

Here in AZ a Liquor license depending on weather it Beer & Wine, or full Liquor is 35 - 125K, that's not chicken feed.

No pension, no 401, no Heath Insurance, it one your if you pay for it. Honeslty most people would be smart to do 20 or 30 years in the military, and retire with something guaranteed for life like ManWon did before he had his pool room.

CocoboloCowboy said:

People who have only worked for a check go into some thriving business, and see the money filling the cash draw.

Problem is they do not understand the bills get paid first, and the owner is normally the last one to get paid if their is a profit.

Remember talking to Ken who owned Hardtimes in Bellflower, his take on own Hardtimes was it was not a gold mine.

He mention always have a supply of Toilet Seats, and Bathroom Mirrors, because of the constant vandalism.

Then you had those who came to watch the great one play at Hardtimes, and never spend a dime.

Owning a business is a 24 X 7 X 365 job, some people make money, most are lucky to make a living.

Here in AZ a Liquor license depending on weather it Beer & Wine, or full Liquor is 35 - 125K, that's not chicken feed.

No pension, no 401, no Heath Insurance, it one your if you pay for it. Honeslty most people would be smart to do 20 or 30 years in the military, and retire with something guaranteed for life like ManWon did before he had his pool room.

Click to expand...

Great post. Agree 100%. The guy who owns Tulsa's room Magoo's is a businessman with other irons in the fire: theaters, building vetern/dentist offices, etc. Magoos is just one part of his portfolio and would not be open if it wasn't for his other $$ sources.

garczar said:

Wow. That's dirt cheap and definitely the exception and not the rule. Must be one small town. You think 50% of small town(what's small??) rents are that low? Find that hard to believe. Problem with too small of a town you don't have a big enough potential customer base. Kind of a two-edged sword.

Click to expand...

Ive called a lot of towns to check this out. Not all are in that range but I think its possible that you can find retail space at $3.50 to $4.00 over most of the South in the rural areas.

The small town thing is not as big of a problem as you might think.

All Civic Groups, Retirees, State and Government Employees, Children and the possibility of being able to have School Programs.

When you don't have alcohol then you can get everyone else but you do have to market for it and that is not as hard as people think. You invite people, have an affordable play rate not necessarily an hour rate. You can have an hour rate but give your players a value but yet not give it away. Retirees and kids get a cheaper rate.

Advertise your value directly to people, you can get them.

I think the question is: Do you want to do it?.

336Robin said:

Ive called a lot of towns to check this out. Not all are in that range but I think its possible that you can find retail space at $3.50 to $4.00 over most of the South in the rural areas.

The small town thing is not as big of a problem as you might think.

All Civic Groups, Retirees, State and Government Employees, Children and the possibility of being able to have School Programs.

When you don't have alcohol then you can get everyone else but you do have to market for it and that is not as hard as people think. You invite people, have an affordable play rate not necessarily an hour rate. You can have an hour rate but give your players a value but yet not give it away. Retirees and kids get a cheaper rate.

Advertise your value directly to people, you can get them.

I think the question is: Do you want to do it?.

Click to expand...

Some decisions come down to the church groups. Never heard of church people liking pool rooms.

336Robin said:

Ive called a lot of towns to check this out. Not all are in that range but I think its possible that you can find retail space at $3.50 to $4.00 over most of the South in the rural areas.

The small town thing is not as big of a problem as you might think.

All Civic Groups, Retirees, State and Government Employees, Children and the possibility of being able to have School Programs.

When you don't have alcohol then you can get everyone else but you do have to market for it and that is not as hard as people think. You invite people, have an affordable play rate not necessarily an hour rate. You can have an hour rate but give your players a value but yet not give it away. Retirees and kids get a cheaper rate.

Advertise your value directly to people, you can get them.

I think the question is: Do you want to do it?.

Click to expand...

Lotta "ifs" there. I wouldn't do it on a bet. More hassle(big-time) than its worth. It would almost have to be a second income stream. Would you try to live on this proposition? Not me.

336Robin said:

Ive called a lot of towns to check this out. Not all are in that range but I think its possible that you can find retail space at $3.50 to $4.00 over most of the South in the rural areas.

The small town thing is not as big of a problem as you might think.

All Civic Groups, Retirees, State and Government Employees, Children and the possibility of being able to have School Programs.

When you don't have alcohol then you can get everyone else but you do have to market for it and that is not as hard as people think. You invite people, have an affordable play rate not necessarily an hour rate. You can have an hour rate but give your players a value but yet not give it away. Retirees and kids get a cheaper rate.

Advertise your value directly to people, you can get them.

I think the question is: Do you want to do it?.

Click to expand...

Are you factoring in the " tenant improvements " that are needed to take raw space to pool room buildout? This can run a lot of cash.

overlord said:

Are you factoring in the " tenant improvements " that are needed to take raw space to pool room buildout? This can run a lot of cash.

Click to expand...

That wouldn't be considered in the price of the rented space unless you had to add to the building that you might leave. Any improvements like an extra bathroom that would improve the property might can be shared expense with the landlord and part of the rental agreement. If the owner did all of it then you might get your rent raised or he seek another tenant without the proper agreement.

In NC if the occupancy is above a certain point (and most pool rooms would be) because of square footage, you would have to have 2- Unisex bathrooms at the minimum. Bathrooms you could figure at 5k a piece if small ones like that.

There would be an art to going in small and then expanding but looking at how much business you might lose being too small I'm not sure it would be worth it to go in too light.

You definitely have to be dedicated to it if you go in with decent equipment because the outlay wouldn't be cheap. You might get a 10 table room in for 60k if you are lucky and there are lots of hoops to jump through. A group of retired guys who each take a day a week would work and split the profits when there are profits. I see that working but partners can be a problem too. A husband wife team might work best. That way you get a break.

There is also the Billiard Key Club thing and you don't need much for that or have to be there all the time.

336Robin said:

That wouldn't be considered in the price of the rented space unless you had to add to the building that you might leave. Any improvements like an extra bathroom that would improve the property might can be shared expense with the landlord and part of the rental agreement. If the owner did all of it then you might get your rent raised or he seek another tenant without the proper agreement.

In NC if the occupancy is above a certain point (and most pool rooms would be) because of square footage, you would have to have 2- Unisex bathrooms at the minimum. Bathrooms you could figure at 5k a piece if small ones like that.

There would be an art to going in small and then expanding but looking at how much business you might lose being too small I'm not sure it would be worth it to go in too light.

You definitely have to be dedicated to it if you go in with decent equipment because the outlay wouldn't be cheap. You might get a 10 table room in for 60k if you are lucky and there are lots of hoops to jump through. A group of retired guys who each take a day a week would work and split the profits when there are profits. I see that working but partners can be a problem too. A husband wife team might work best. That way you get a break.

There is also the Billiard Key Club thing and you don't need much for that or have to be there all the time.

Click to expand...

Sounds like you got the whole deal wired tight. When do you open? Seriously, still way too many "ifs". Big difference in a real business plan and a pipe-dream.

DecentShot said:

My idea is simple. Make every Major Tournament in the United States like the Mosconi Cup in regards to atmosphere. You want Professional pool to have the same cache as major sports? It needs the same enthusiasm that the major sports have.
No more sitting quietly in your chair and whispering about position play. We need cheering and beers in hands. Excitement! If that keeps some away? You have to prune to grow.
Welcoming all thoughts/comments.

Click to expand...

What does that even mean?

Lights, entrance music, jerseys?

Just loud people?

Well there are two kind of business, one that makes money, the other one don't make money.

I remember for 30 year having my little business, Everytime something went wrong, or someone told me they would pay my in 15, or 30 days, but they did not, and I went to bill collecting mode.

I told people this is what I jokingly called pride of ownership. Most of my clients did pay on time, but a few flakes were more troble then they were worth.

Then I had equiptment that was not working properly, so I got stuck replacing, or repairing.

Bottom line was there we months when I had money owed, a lot of money but those months were red, but I was lucky most months money makers.

If anyone thinks opening a Pool Bar, or Pool Room would be a dream business. Go find some business consultant and let them explain all the thing you need do before opening the doors, and how much money you are going to have to spend before day one of operating.

First hurdle is finding a place, then getting a license, permits, sign & fees for hanging a sign. How can you attract customers? Some place do not want Bars, or Pool Rooms in their cities.

Young people do not line up to play Pool, they like sitting infor not of a computer screen playing video games.

Back in the 50's, and 60's places like Boys Clubs, and the YMCA got kids hooked on Pool. Today our local Boys & Girls Club has Pool Tables. But kids are not lining up for their turn to play Pool. They line up for their turn at X-Box, or some Computer game. it's 2019, and the kids have different Intrests in the USA.

Black-Balled said:

What does that even mean?

Lights, entrance music, jerseys?

Just loud people?

Click to expand...

I agree. The MC is a made-4-tv(well, in Europe anyway) exhibition/competition. Its fine once a year. Kinda like that crazy par3 at the PhoenixOpen with the 30,000 drunk idiots. Personally I don't need/want that atmosphere at other pool events. Then again, score girls in bikinis and maybe midget strippers during breaks wouldn't be so bad.

garczar said:

Sounds like you got the whole deal wired tight. When do you open? Seriously, still way too many "ifs". Big difference in a real business plan and a pipe-dream.

Click to expand...

By no means, but I do see how it can be done when you can effectively advertise for pennies but even at that, who wants to do it? Even with the business out there to go get, Who wants to do it? Every business has to market and get customers but this industry not so much. Why?

garczar said:

Most events, big or small, do this. Its nothing new. Unless you go land a MAJOR sponsor with big-time deep pockets it won't change anytime soon.

Click to expand...

That won't change anything either, pool has no player structuring which allows the Pros only to compete, let alone having to earn a spot as a top pro in order to compete.

336Robin said:

That wouldn't be considered in the price of the rented space unless you had to add to the building that you might leave. Any improvements like an extra bathroom that would improve the property might can be shared expense with the landlord and part of the rental agreement. If the owner did all of it then you might get your rent raised or he seek another tenant without the proper agreement.

In NC if the occupancy is above a certain point (and most pool rooms would be) because of square footage, you would have to have 2- Unisex bathrooms at the minimum. Bathrooms you could figure at 5k a piece if small ones like that.

There would be an art to going in small and then expanding but looking at how much business you might lose being too small I'm not sure it would be worth it to go in too light.

You definitely have to be dedicated to it if you go in with decent equipment because the outlay wouldn't be cheap. You might get a 10 table room in for 60k if you are lucky and there are lots of hoops to jump through. A group of retired guys who each take a day a week would work and split the profits when there are profits. I see that working but partners can be a problem too. A husband wife team might work best. That way you get a break.

There is also the Billiard Key Club thing and you don't need much for that or have to be there all the time.

Click to expand...

If you are gonna have a commercial kitchen and handicapped access I think it will be more expensive than you think.

overlord said:

If you are gonna have a commercial kitchen and handicapped access I think it will be more expensive than you think.

Click to expand...

Well I never said a full commercial kitchen and to that I would say hell no. I retired out of the food service business. However there are food options you can do today that weren't available a long time ago that make food service more affordable to do. Its just how far you want to go with it. A sandwich and cup of coffee maybe a dessert. Its a pool room and needs to be a one man operation. You start talking wings, fries and stuff like that you go insane with the costs associated with them. Today you can buy cooked flash frozen food that you can heat up in the microwave thats not bad if you want to go hot food. Costco does it everyday. Its within code and usually tastes good. Subway is another No hood systems in a subway not one. They use a type of oven that contains the hot air. Turbo Oven.

The 60k number I put out there. I had not included food service that was just tables, some furniture, bare walls, cues and maybe a lathe.

realkingcobra said:

That won't change anything either, pool has no player structuring which allows the Pros only to compete, let alone having to earn a spot as a top pro in order to compete.

Click to expand...

And won't anytime soon if ever. Been hearing this "pro only" stuff from various sources for last 20yrs. Not holding my breath.

garczar said:

And won't anytime soon if ever. Been hearing this "pro only" stuff from various sources for last 20yrs. Not holding my breath.

Click to expand...

No ones asking you to hold your breath, but you're not alone in holding it, Pros have been holding their breath longer than you've been around!!

RiverCity said:

Ever here the phrase 'youre entitled to your own opinion, but you arent entitled to your own facts"?

Population means little to nothing, as pointed out by the example of the Philippines.

Africa has a population of 1,318,717,841 (almost 17% of the planets total population) as of 2019. You think you could make a world class team from that population? Nope. Know why? Because pool isnt popular there.

The only numbers that matter population wise, is the number of world class players living in an area. We dont have that many anymore. Other parts of the world caught up to us, and left us in the dust.

So again, explain to me how the us vs a continent argument is anything other that a bullshit excuse?

Click to expand...

It is. Us against the whole continent. I don’t like mongoloids so don’t be ham fisted or mouth breathing on here.

Population doesn’t matter. You’ve got different places with different cultures and styles but that all take pool more seriously than the US. Some of these little countries even help their players out and have programs probably starting in grade school for those with talent. They want to shine somewhere on some world stage so they pay attention to these things where as in the U S of A it’s a free for all. Give us your taxes and STFUB. Try to make a life. So a few Americans get mad skilled at the art of cue but not many. There are 18x more opportunities to find pool playing gems in Europe than the US

realkingcobra said:

That won't change anything either, pool has no player structuring which allows the Pros only to compete, let alone having to earn a spot as a top pro in order to compete.

Click to expand...

In the book about the life of the Great Willie Mosconi, "Willie World" it was noted Pool was never as great as the year Willie was born 1913. It has been on the decline, is declining, and honeslty has been replaced in part or major part with technology, electronics, and instant gratification games.

One only need look at this Forums Wanted/For/Sale. Back 10 years ago Cues, and Cases would not be posted long if they were in vogue, sold fast, today somethings that sold back then fast, or with in hour of posting, have 1,000 - 1,500 looks or more, and are unsold.

JazzyJeff87 said:

It is. Us against the whole continent. I don’t like mongoloids so don’t be ham fisted or mouth breathing on here.

Population doesn’t matter. You’ve got different places with different cultures and styles but that all take pool more seriously than the US. Some of these little countries even help their players out and have programs probably starting in grade school for those with talent. They want to shine somewhere on some world stage so they pay attention to these things where as in the U S of A it’s a free for all. Give us your taxes and STFUB. Try to make a life. So a few Americans get mad skilled at the art of cue but not many. There are 18x more opportunities to find pool playing gems in Europe than the US

Click to expand...

Are you fooking retarded?