Experiments in looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke.

fan-tum

fan-tum

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gregcantrall said:
In the thread Shot / stroke problem a poster put forth the proposition that looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke was "fundamentally wrong". I had already provided evidence that Willie Hoppe considered looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke as fundamentally basic. I had read Willie Hoppies book Billiards As It Should Be Played well over 20 years ago. At the time I was content with my aiming process and just chalked up the cue ball last as a 3 cushion thing. Kind of the way I considered his more upright stance an "Old School" thing compared to the chin on the cue of the top snooker players and shot makers. Anyway the discussion led me to experiment with looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke.

I started experimenting with looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke around 01-04-2013, and am pleasantly surprised with the result.

The first thing I noticed was expected. I was able to much more precisely place the cue ball.

The next noticable improvement was shooting off of the rail. My make percentage improved looking at the cueball.

The break shot was next, I was hitting the rack more squarely and more consistenly controling whitey.

Then I starting improving my make percentage on the long backward angle shots that I have always struggled with.

Now practicing with a new technique and competing are two different things. The first time I put it to the test in competition, it was a leap of faith. My percentage was so low on this shot that I figured what the heck what to lose, might as well try it looking at the cue ball. Length of the table and straight in married to the rail, make it and I get the same shot on the eight ball. It worked perfectly!

Now I am two weeks into this experiment and feeling really comfortable with looking at the cueball. So I go to an old cut shot drill that I know what my percentages of make miss looking at the object ball are and am able to make a higher percentage looking at the cueball last.

So after a couple of weeks my cueball control has improved, my shot making has improved and my confidence has improved with no downside. Could some of this improvement be due to the "New" effect? Certainly, but regardless of why I am thrilled with the improvement in my game.:thumbup:

Looking at the cueball when delivering the stroke has also given me new insight into the TOI and what CJ meant when he spoke of "pining"(sp) the cueball.:cool:
Further discussion on this topic can be found in this thread in the Ask The Instructor forum as well.
Why Object Ball Last?
Click to expand...
This method helps me hit center ball and improve my potting by a margin of 5-10 %, I'm guessing.
 
gregcantrall

gregcantrall

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Great link

marikian said:
There is a video of Rodney Morris on youtube where he talks about fundamentals and he says he looks at the cue ball last. He also says Efren and Parica do also it is very interesting. here is the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vad2FUx3u0
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Thank you for the link. His emphasis on fundamentals hits home for what is working for me. I just recently opened up my stance considerably. I did this after closing my eyes while standing at address then going into my stance and placing my bridge hand on the table. It showed me that my stance wanted to be more open. Then I see Rodney describe a very similar method for determining what stance is right for you. :cool:

I found the entire video interesting but here is a link to the portion on which ball last. https://youtu.be/_vad2FUx3u0?t=393
 
marikian

marikian

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gregcantrall said:
Thank you for the link. His emphasis on fundamentals hits home for what is working for me. I just recently opened up my stance considerably. I did this after closing my eyes while standing at address then going into my stance and placing my bridge hand on the table. It showed me that my stance wanted to be more open. Then I see Rodney describe a very similar method for determining what stance is right for you. :cool:

I found the entire video interesting but here is a link to the portion on which ball last. https://youtu.be/_vad2FUx3u0?t=393
Click to expand...

Pretty cool stuff that i never knew there are also some other instructional gems on that youtube channel. he gets some big names to show some instruction.
 
gregcantrall

gregcantrall

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Updated original post to include digested information.

I have updated the original post for the historical aspect of giving any late comers some of the more relevant input.

Update-9/7/2015:
This thread has grown to 305 posts. There is a lot of background noise. I am going to consolidate some of the replies and linked information, that I find relevant.

From post #19; TAR interview with Johnny Archer.
From post #26; DrCue'sProtege Quotes from the linked interview.
At about the 45:38 mark Archer says...."Really, the #1 thing you have to concentrate on is the CB cause thats all you will ever hit"

He goes on to say a few seconds later..."Amateurs dont get any better because they dont focus on the CB"

Common sense - CB or OB - its personal preference.

DCP

From post #61 by Taco; "Rodney Morris also looks at CB last. He explicitly says so on the Break & Run DVD set. It gives him better CB control. He says Efren and Parica do the same. But what do they know compared to a keyboard banger?"

In post #361 marikian provides a link to a youtube video titled, "Advanced Fundamentals R Morris".
Cue ball last portion.
The statement that Efren looks at the cue ball last is proven false in this TAR interview. Justin asked Efren on my behalf and his reply indicated he does not. His body language indicate he would find it ........well he puts his finger to his head and makes a scratching motion.

In post #65 CJ Wiley says; "You have discovered for yourself "the cue ball is the target".....we're aware of the object ball on the last stroke, however the real "aiming" is done at the cue ball. The cue ball is where you get your direct feel and is your direct connection to the game. Connection is one of the keys to Consistency in pocket billiards. "

More CJ from post #69; "Just remember, we "aim" at the cue ball because it's the primary target (we actually contact it), and we "connect" to the object ball (because it's the secondary target, we hit it indirectly). This should answer some questions about what's really happening."

When asked by Okie in post #72, what he looked at last. CJ replies in post #76, "I aim at the cue ball last, and shift to the connection {with my eyes} of the object ball {last} as I hit the cue ball. Read this carefully and you'll "real eyes" why there's some confusion, everybody is correct, in a manner of speaking."

Upon further inquiry by Okie;

Do you shift focus before, during or after the last backstroke?

Thank you for sharing!

Ken

CJ responds in post#80;
Basically simultaneously...you go from primary focus cue ball to primary focus object ball.....and this MUST be done subconsciously. DO NOT try to think about this, just connect to the shot and allow it to happen. Any other way can be dangerous and I know a few pros that got really messed up trying to tinker with this.

In post #95, I try to give 3andstop an estimate of my level of play.

Poolmanis posts in #238; "Ronnie(O'Sullivan) said on some shots he watch cueball last even "they say it´s wrong"
It was some episode on his show at Eurosport."
From post #256; I found the episode;Episode 2 at 6:20
Question; "When you're, um, when you're down on this shot.... Are you, is the last the last ball you look at the cue ball? Or the object ball?"
Ronnie; "Uh I don't even know, to be honest with you."
Question; "No?"
Ronnie; "No, I don't even know. I suppose, it's meant to be the object ball, but I sometimes I find myself looking at the white."

From post #286; I link several shots of John Higgins eyes as he shoots.
John Higgins appears to look at the cue ball last:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ9Jf8OYqBo&t=5991
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ9Jf8OYqBo&t=5433
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ9Jf8OYqBo&t=1291
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ9Jf8OYqBo&t=918

From post 287; I link Earl Strickland break shot showing eyes.
There has been anecdotal information that Earl looks at the cue ball last. Well I finally found a clip that shows his eyes while shooting. It is a break shot however and not necessarily how he shoots all shots. It does appear that his eyes are on the cue ball.
https://youtu.be/w1KGY3Xt6pw?t=9220

From post #288; I link to Paul Potier site.

I see Paul Potier added this on his site some time ago. Some very interesting insight from a knowledgeable instructor.
http://paulpotier.com/cue-ball-last-...ect-ball-last/

One last quote from Paul's article: "I had a very good friend who was a great Snooker player. We will just call him Bill. Bill and I played a lot of Snooker together, sometimes running back to back centuries against each other. One day I noticed him looking at the cue ball last during a shot. I asked him why he did that. He said he always looks at the cue ball last. I was shocked! Bill was one of the best Snooker players in Manitoba .......".
 
Zphix

Zphix

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I'm not sure I ever responded to this particular thread but I know I've said this on the forums before - my philosophy has always been that if you line up properly to the point you're supposed to hit (including calculating for squirt, etc.) then it doesn't matter what you look at last as long as you're stroking straight.

I learned to play by looking at the CB last when stroking and a few players have told me about some benefits that they got from looking at the OB last I haven't been able to adjust to it. If anything, when I was looking at the OB last my stroke would get a little weird because I'm moving my head around to look at the OB last.

One final thought is, maybe some people look at the OB last because that gives them a clear picture in there eyes instead of a double image as some people get when they're very low on the ball.

Again though, I don't think it matters which is better or if either one is better. Exceptions to the rules occur everywhere and if one works for you better than the other then stick with it.

I also prefer to look at the CB last because I want to zero-in on where I am hitting the CB which results in better position most of the time. I've found that guys who look at the OB last do not always have the best position play or speed control.
 
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Runner

Runner

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CB or OB

Hmmm... I was watching Efren at Hard Times playing one pocket... he has four or five practice strokes, a pause, one final practice stroke, then shoots. His eyes are on the CB until just after that final practice stroke... as he's shooting, his eyes shift to the OB. It's a microsecond... I think a lot of players do that intuitively. YMMV...
 
haystj

haystj

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Good grief, I don't have the time to read through the entire 20 pages,,, but I really like this topic.

Most golfers look at the ball when they are putting,,,, not where they want the ball to go.

I think if a person had such a good stroke that they could hit the cue ball in the exact desired spot without looking at the CB it would make sense to look up.

However, for me, my stroke is not close to that and when I started by getting my alignment correct and focusing only on the CB, my game went way up. That is a relative thing, but it went up for me.

I agree 100% with the original post.
 
gregcantrall

gregcantrall

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3 years later

It has been three years since I made the leap of faith. Boy am I glad I did. I am now playing some of the best pool I have ever played.


I became aware of fargorate a short time ago. I have 365 games played in the system. My rating at this time is 623! :eek:

Soooooo for those people that were concerned, that my progress would be limited. Not to worry.
 
N

Neil

AzB Silver Member
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gregcantrall said:
It has been three years since I made the leap of faith. Boy am I glad I did. I am now playing some of the best pool I have ever played.


I became aware of fargorate a short time ago. I have 365 games played in the system. My rating at this time is 623! :eek:

Soooooo for those people that were concerned, that my progress would be limited. Not to worry.
Click to expand...

Glad it's working for you! It's not everyone's cup of tea, but if it works, it works.
 
Tony_in_MD

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Thanks for the update. Glad it is working out for you.

AJM

gregcantrall said:
It has been three years since I made the leap of faith. Boy am I glad I did. I am now playing some of the best pool I have ever played.


I became aware of fargorate a short time ago. I have 365 games played in the system. My rating at this time is 623! :eek:

Soooooo for those people that were concerned, that my progress would be limited. Not to worry.
Click to expand...
 
Siz

Siz

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gregcantrall said:
I am just now watching Ronnie O'Sullivan vs Stephen Hendry 2010 World Open 24th September 2010 and caught this good look at Steven Hendry's eyes on the break shot.

Another look at a long shot later in the match. Looks like his eyes come up after the contact. The red is so close to the pocket it would not be a shift from red to pocket. Hard to be sure but seems to be a shift from white to red.
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That is really interesting.

I had thought that although some pros thought that they looked at the cb last, in reality video evidence shows that they switched up to the ob before releasing the cue. But I agree that these two clips clearly show a counter example.

In both these shots the side spin put on the cb was really crucial to the shot. I would be interested to know if there is a clip showing Hendry's eye pattern hitting plain ball.

Thanks for sharing! (And thanks also for taking the time earlier to make a synopsis of this thread - something that I will definitely be checking out in due course.)
 
gregcantrall

gregcantrall

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Siz said:
That is really interesting.

I had thought that although some pros thought that they looked at the cb last, in reality video evidence shows that they switched up to the ob before releasing the cue. But I agree that these two clips clearly show a counter example.

In both these shots the side spin put on the cb was really crucial to the shot. I would be interested to know if there is a clip showing Hendry's eye pattern hitting plain ball.

Thanks for sharing! (And thanks also for taking the time earlier to make a synopsis of this thread - something that I will definitely be checking out in due course.)
Click to expand...
There were a few more shots that showed his eyes as he shot but I had a hard time detecting any eye movement.
The match these clips came from was in 2010. I found a quote from Hendry's book, Snooker Masterclass: How to Build Big Breaks and Win. Published in 1994
"When you are actually playing the shot you must switch your eyes from the cue-ball to the object-ball and back again. Always remember that only your eyes and not your head should move. I believe that at the last instant you should be looking at the spot on the object-ball where contact with the cue-ball needs to be made in order for the pot to be successful."
Click to expand...

The Ronnie O' Sullivan quote, " I suppose, it's meant to be the object ball, but I sometimes I find myself looking at the white." Indicates to me that he was taught object ball last but perhaps evolved to cue ball last on some shots. Could be the case with Hendry as well.
 
gregcantrall

gregcantrall

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Alan McManus in 2016 World Snooker Championship

Had to post this link as it is the best shot of a players eyes while shooting, that I have found yet.

Alan McManus' eyes while shooting.

There is a second slow mo look at the shot from another angle at the 9:00 mark. It gives a definite look at his eye pattern.

No doubt that his is looking at the white as it is struck.
 
Siz

Siz

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gregcantrall said:
I am just now watching Ronnie O'Sullivan vs Stephen Hendry 2010 World Open 24th September 2010 and caught this good look at Steven Hendry's eyes on the break shot.

Another look at a long shot later in the match. Looks like his eyes come up after the contact. The red is so close to the pocket it would not be a shift from red to pocket. Hard to be sure but seems to be a shift from white to red.
Click to expand...

Siz said:
That is really interesting.

I had thought that although some pros thought that they looked at the cb last, in reality video evidence shows that they switched up to the ob before releasing the cue. But I agree that these two clips clearly show a counter example.

In both these shots the side spin put on the cb was really crucial to the shot. I would be interested to know if there is a clip showing Hendry's eye pattern hitting plain ball.

Thanks for sharing! (And thanks also for taking the time earlier to make a synopsis of this thread - something that I will definitely be checking out in due course.)
Click to expand...

The BBC recently showed a recording of Hendry playing some years back, and there is a bit in that which quite clearly shows him looking at the ob last. Unless he changed his eye patterns (which I think is unlikely) it does seem as if players do not always do the same thing every time.

I suspect that where the critical part of the shot is the tip placement (for example swerving the cb, or playing with extreme side/english), the player might look at the cb last, when for all other shots, he looks at the ob last.

This is certainly consistent with what I do - look at the ob last unless I am playing a swerve/masse
 
Siz

Siz

AzB Silver Member
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gregcantrall said:
Had to post this link as it is the best shot of a players eyes while shooting, that I have found yet.

Alan McManus' eyes while shooting.

There is a second slow mo look at the shot from another angle at the 9:00 mark. It gives a definite look at his eye pattern.

No doubt that his is looking at the white as it is struck.
Click to expand...

Nice find. Not easy to spot such a quick flick down to the cb and then back up again. Again interesting that it was a shot played with extreme side / english.
 
gregcantrall

gregcantrall

Center Ball
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Siz said:
Nice find. Not easy to spot such a quick flick down to the cb and then back up again. Again interesting that it was a shot played with extreme side / english.
Click to expand...

I agree with your theory on Hendry possibly only looking at the white for certain shots.The shots that are easiest to see the eye pattern on are the long shots. It is possible that the longer shots would be the only ones that he would look at the white last.

I have been watching McManus this morning and his eye pattern seems consistent, with a quick shift to the white just as the stroke starts. Again the shorter shots it is hard to discern the eye pattern.
 
Siz

Siz

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Silver Member
gregcantrall said:
I have been watching McManus this morning and his eye pattern seems consistent, with a quick shift to the white just as the stroke starts. Again the shorter shots it is hard to discern the eye pattern.
Click to expand...

The brevity of the glance down to the cb does surprise me though. McManus here is aged 45. One might have expected to see an effect on dynamic eye accommodation by that age - how does he manage to refocus on the cb so quickly? Perhaps he is not actually getting sharp focus on where the tip is; it may be that a blurred image is sufficient - or even that this is just continuation of a habit that he developed when his eyes were young and flexible!
 
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