Carbon Fiber Prices

shoutout33 · May 25, 2020

Ok my apologies if this has been spoken to death already, but I literally just had a light bulb moment. I just wanted some clarification from the forums to see if what I was thinking made in since. OK, we all know and some of us have spent money on this new CF shaft craze. Some of them cost as much as a really nice cue!

I remember speaking to a Predator rep. about the shaft when it first came out and realized that once you buy a shaft from them, you literally won't need another shaft probably EVER! I may be pushing this a bit, but they don't ding, in many ways are low maintenance, and WILL NOT WARP!

So, with these basic positives that CF shafts offer (forgot to add that they won't shrink over time like wood when it gets cleaned...) I'm starting to understand and slow accept why these shafts command such a high price tag. Am I being too naive about this?

Cron · May 25, 2020

No, you're not being naive. If there was more CF shafts at more tapers and tip diameters I think a lot of people would of switched already. If you look at the offerings from the ~6 reputable companies offering them, then you'll notice that there just isn't a lot of options, and without options, a lot of people won't buy one (rightfully).

As far as EVER buying another shaft, well sure that is possible if you really love the shaft, but the most important part of CF is that if you do buy another shaft, you're much more likely to buy one that feels exactly the same as they are inherently more repeatable.

Also in relation to buying another shaft, carbon fiber shooting shafts are different than jump shafts. Carbon fiber doesn't really have a place with jump shafts, at least no more than any other cheaper to produce synthetics. But if the you own both a CF jump and shooting shaft, it wouldn't be a surprise if you had to buy another jump shaft long before buying another shooting shaft.

Maxx · May 25, 2020

I’m trying to decide between steel, aluminum, or carbon.

gregnice37 · May 25, 2020

To go along with the op, I've thought that the whole time. 1x $500 price or 3-4x buying wood shafts as replacements, it's a no brainier to me.

As far of saying there isn't many diameter choices, that's changed as well as I've seen many options like 11.8, 11.9, 12.0, 12.2, 12.3, 12.4, 12.5, 12.75, 12.9 & 13mm.

One last response I have about cf jump shafts, I at least remember seeing 3 companies with them so far: cuetec, go customs & becue.

Terry Aeschliman · May 25, 2020

CF shafts

If you can find a supplier that has what you are looking for as far as diameter (tip & joint), length of taper and overall length, you can get into a CF shaft tube for around $100. Then your cue maker/repairman finish it to your spec. A lot less money for the same product.
Just do your homework and ask for references.
Terry Aeschliman Galveston Indiana 765 434 5131

TATE · May 25, 2020

No I believe you're correct.

The problem with carbon fiber is you have to find the right one that suits your game. It seems no two brands are alike. The other problem is you need to work with them for a while to see if it's the right one. They can be a lot different than wood so the first couple of times you use it won't necessarily tell you everything you need to know because there will be an adaptation process. Also, the tip makes a huge difference. What you like on your wooden shaft might not be what you like on your CF shaft. For example, I prefer firm tips on wood and soft tips on CF.

Once you find the shaft, you're pretty much set. I've found mine and I'm sticking with it. My opinion has evolved now that I've played with CF for 3 years. I'm playing with the newer version of the Becue 5.1M Prime with an added white pad.

jrctherake · May 25, 2020

shoutout33 said:
Ok my apologies if this has been spoken to death already, but I literally just had a light bulb moment. I just wanted some clarification from the forums to see if what I was thinking made in since. OK, we all know and some of us have spent money on this new CF shaft craze. Some of them cost as much as a really nice cue!

I remember speaking to a Predator rep. about the shaft when it first came out and realized that once you buy a shaft from them, you literally won't need another shaft probably EVER! I may be pushing this a bit, but they don't ding, in many ways are low maintenance, and WILL NOT WARP!

So, with these basic positives that CF shafts offer (forgot to add that they won't shrink over time like wood when it gets cleaned...) I'm starting to understand and slow accept why these shafts command such a high price tag. Am I being too naive about this?

Cheap
Quick

and

extremely repeatable

Jeff

ShootingArts · May 25, 2020

R&D and unknown sales volume

Predator pretty much made the market and they came in high. Not surprising, I suspect they had considerable R&D costs to recoup and no idea sales would take off like they have. It took a big name behind CF to make it explode like it has, a noname builder might never have got off the ground.

I am very tempted to buy CF, on the other hand I have a feeling that with everybody and their brother jumping on the bandwagon we are going to see things flatten out with market driven pricing. I want CF now, I am also very tempted to wait a year or so. Let design and pricing settle.

My little bit of experience with CF makes me think that tapers can be designed that just wouldn't work with wood. Got something pretty radical in mind myself.

Time will tell but I have long thought synthetic shafts and tips were past due.

Hu

HawaiianEye · May 25, 2020

ShootingArts said:
Predator pretty much made the market and they came in high. Not surprising, I suspect they had considerable R&D costs to recoup and no idea sales would take off like they have. It took a big name behind CF to make it explode like it has, a noname builder might never have got off the ground.

I am very tempted to buy CF, on the other hand I have a feeling that with everybody and their brother jumping on the bandwagon we are going to see things flatten out with market driven pricing. I want CF now, I am also very tempted to wait a year or so. Let design and pricing settle.

My little bit of experience with CF makes me think that tapers can be designed that just wouldn't work with wood. Got something pretty radical in mind myself.

Time will tell but I have long thought synthetic shafts and tips were past due.

Hu

I have no experience in making anything...even a shoe box, but I think you are right about the tapers.

I have three carbon shafts and I have plenty of wooden shafts of different tapers and thicknesses. All of my carbon shafts are the same diameter and taper now, but I've had and tried others that were different lengths, tapers, models and from different companies.

Some people like really thin shafts with long tapers, but they want something STIFF.

From what little I know (which is VERY little), I think it would be a lot easier to make a shaft to their liking out of carbon than it would be with wood. Wood tends to be "whippy" when it is cut down into a real skinny shaft, unless it maybe is cored with something like carbon.

With a carbon shaft, I think you could adjust the tapers to their liking and control the stiffness of the shaft by selecting a carbon blank with thicker diameter walls.

Cron · May 26, 2020

HawaiianEye said:
...selecting a carbon blank with thicker diameter walls.

I have a rant on this for all my local "cue makers".

For shits and giggles, sure you can use blanks. But what is disappointing is that my local "cue makers" are using carbon "blanks" and claiming to care about craftsmanship.

If you're going to make a cf shaft, MAKE IT! The mold can be difficult, but it can't all be a gimme.

If anyone knows how Predator infuses their mold, please state it, but I'm assuming it is bladder infusion.

Here's a video of VERY expensive equipment bladder infusion, but you don't need all this to make a shaft, not at all...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MT1GKrjngU

Here's a video for bag infusion, rewind the video for how to prep the mold

https://youtu.be/Hxw9zTE_T7M?t=336

Here's a guy using 3D printed parts for a mold and explains the prep...

https://youtu.be/UtBE-Az4ZIc?t=32

The above 3D printed mold assumes you're not using an oven, but if you are you have to cast from 3DP...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgI8TomcYyU

If you really want to make one of these, you could make a dedicated oven, buy a degasser, and setup a vacuum for all under $2000. $500 for the initial supplies and you're off to R&D... $2500. A dedicated "cue maker" should have the know how and money to do this, but apparently my local "cue makers" are just riding the gravy train.

I've seen hundreds of videos on cf casting and I'm not sure how many 3D printers I've seen, but nothing at all would stop me from making my own if I was a "cue maker".

Here's a video of someone in a garage using bladder infusion for square tubing, this shows the type of equipment you can do it with

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gy4JWlGnIvE

HawaiianEye · May 26, 2020

Cron said:
I have a rant on this for all my local "cue makers".

For shits and giggles, sure you can use blanks. But what is disappointing is that my local "cue makers" are using carbon "blanks" and claiming to care about craftsmanship.

If you're going to make a cf shaft, MAKE IT! The mold can be difficult, but it can't all be a gimme.

If anyone knows how Predator infuses their mold, please state it, but I'm assuming it is bladder infusion.

Here's a video of VERY expensive equipment bladder infusion, but you don't need all this to make a shaft, not at all...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MT1GKrjngU

Here's a video for bag infusion, rewind the video for how to prep the mold

https://youtu.be/Hxw9zTE_T7M?t=336

Here's a guy using 3D printed parts for a mold and explains the prep...

https://youtu.be/UtBE-Az4ZIc?t=32

The above 3D printed mold assumes you're not using an oven, but if you are you have to cast from 3DP...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgI8TomcYyU

If you really want to make one of these, you could make a dedicated oven, buy a degasser, and setup a vacuum for all under $2000. $500 for the initial supplies and you're off to R&D... $2500. A dedicated "cue maker" should have the know how and money to do this, but apparently my local "cue makers" are just riding the gravy train.

I've seen hundreds of videos on cf casting and I'm not sure how many 3D printers I've seen, but nothing at all would stop me from making my own if I was a "cue maker".

Here's a video of someone in a garage using bladder infusion for square tubing, this shows the type of equipment you can do it with

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gy4JWlGnIvE

If it is so easy, why aren't you making them?

Or buying the equipment for them, training them how to do it, and then getting a cut of the money every time one is made and sold?

Cron · May 26, 2020

HawaiianEye said:
If it is so easy, why aren't you making them?

Or buying the equipment for them, training them how to do it, and then getting a cut of the money every time one is made and sold?

I have no interest, maybe you missed it, but I did state.... if I was a "cue maker".

Now I do have interest in cf objects that could make money (cars and boats), which is why I've watched so many videos and have discussed it with a several people who have or had jobs creating them. Everything is on YouTube, there is nothing left out so training people is in no way of high value. Custom car parts can make money, but some of these parts on boats go for very high prices.

I've used 3D printers to cast cement, mold epoxy (small things, no giant tables), small injection molds, create cue extensions and various other things. The main reason I haven't attempted carbon fiber anything is because I really wouldn't trust the object without degassing the resin, and those chambers are not something I can DIY, not at all. In a month or so (COVID permitting), I will mold a cf extension. I already know I can do extensions because those have a much larger diameter that can permit slight intolerance. But to make the cf parts I want to make money with, no cutting corners there.

HawaiianEye · May 26, 2020

Cron said:
I have no interest, maybe you missed it, but I did state.... if I was a "cue maker".

Now I do have interest in cf objects that could make money (cars and boats), which is why I've watched so many videos and have discussed it with a several people who have or had jobs creating them. Everything is on YouTube, there is nothing left out so training people is in no way of high value. Custom car parts can make money, but some of these parts on boats go for very high prices.

I've used 3D printers to cast cement, mold epoxy (small things, no giant tables), small injection molds, create cue extensions and various other things. The main reason I haven't attempted carbon fiber anything is because I really wouldn't trust the object without degassing the resin, and those chambers are not something I can DIY, not at all. In a month or so (COVID permitting), I will mold a cf extension. I already know I can do extensions because those have a much larger diameter that can permit slight intolerance. But to make the cf parts I want to make money with, no cutting corners there.

I saw that, but maybe, at this point in time, cue makers have no interest in doing it either...for whatever reason.

garczar · May 26, 2020

ShootingArts said:
Predator pretty much made the market and they came in high. Not surprising, I suspect they had considerable R&D costs to recoup and no idea sales would take off like they have. It took a big name behind CF to make it explode like it has, a noname builder might never have got off the ground.

I am very tempted to buy CF, on the other hand I have a feeling that with everybody and their brother jumping on the bandwagon we are going to see things flatten out with market driven pricing. I want CF now, I am also very tempted to wait a year or so. Let design and pricing settle.

My little bit of experience with CF makes me think that tapers can be designed that just wouldn't work with wood. Got something pretty radical in mind myself.

Time will tell but I have long thought synthetic shafts and tips were past due.

Hu

Ditto the tip. Whoever brings out a playable synthetic tip is gonna make serious coin. Probably won't be long with the all good polymer break tips around. Shouldn't take much in the way of modifying the formula to make a good play tip.

RickLafayette · May 26, 2020

It's not just carbon fiber tubes and molds. That is the easy part. It's the thousands of different ways to lay up the carbon fibers to find the right formula for what you are looking for. It's all the time and money spent on research and development. It's having access to or paying for carbon fiber engineers who have the knowledge and expertise in how to obtain certain characteristics resulting from the laying up of the carbon fiber.

Yeah, you can purchase a generic carbon fiber tube, fill it up with foam or wood filler, add a ferrule base and a tip, and a joint, and think you saved all kinds of money. But that shaft is not going to play even close to a Revo or Cynergy, or one or two of the other commercial shafts that resulted from the respective company's research and development.

Saturated Fats · May 28, 2020

fishermanOICUR1 said:
If you can find a supplier that has what you are looking for as far as diameter (tip & joint), length of taper and overall length, you can get into a CF shaft tube for around $100. Then your cue maker/repairman finish it to your spec. A lot less money for the same product.
Just do your homework and ask for references.
Terry Aeschliman Galveston Indiana 765 434 5131

Can you identify any likely suppliers?

Cadillac J · May 31, 2020

Have ZERO interest in carbon-fiber shafts...don't care how great any of them are -- if they made them look like maple/wood, then maybe I'd care to even check them out. Black shafts are the ugliest thing in pool (and this is coming from someone who got an all-black Earl Strickland Cuetec in the mid-late-90s that is covered in a 'carbon-fiber sticker' all over -- it was my first cue and picked out from looks alone when I was 16 years old. I still have it, but it now has R360 wood shaft and plays great.

You cannot just put all shafts made from carbon fiber into one group -- as others have mentioned already there are different construction methods, quality of materials, hit, feel, etc. are going to vary in subtle ways -- I don't see it that different from maple shafts.

CocoboloCowboy · May 31, 2020

Cadillac J said:
Have ZERO interest in carbon-fiber shafts...don't care how great any of them are -- if they made them look like maple/wood, then maybe I'd care to even check them out. Black shafts are the ugliest thing in pool (and this is coming from someone who got an all-black Earl Strickland Cuetec in the mid-late-90s that is covered in a 'carbon-fiber sticker' all over -- it was my first cue and picked out from looks alone when I was 16 years old. I still have it, but it now has R360 wood shaft and plays great.

You cannot just put all shafts made from carbon fiber into one group -- as others have mentioned already there are different construction methods, quality of materials, hit, feel, etc. are going to vary in subtle ways -- I don't see it that different from maple shafts.

I still think it just a passing fade, that was Hype for Corporate Profits. Like Chalk made with Magic Fairdust only $25.00/Cube. Master Green works fine, with or without Flag.

Cron · May 31, 2020

CocoboloCowboy said:
I still think it just a passing fade, that was Hype for Corporate Profits. Like Chalk made with Magic Fairdust only $25.00/Cube. Master Green works fine, with or without Flag.

Even the biggest hater of carbon fiber shafts won't deny their advantages. I think the real question is that in what game types are those advantages needed (I'm still plugging Russian Pyramid as the most advantageous use case).

As far as low deflection being a trend, well no, after all it is a better reference for straight shooting. The problem is jumping, low deflection is clearly worse for that.

Carbon Fiber Prices

shoutout33

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