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02-02-2006, 02:20 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by freddy the beard
It is amazing Steve, how humble and nice Efren is about robbing everybody. It's hard to get mad at him. When I was playing, one of my specialties was heating up my opponent with subtle needling, and the better I played the more heat I would apply. When I got done playing good on a guy, you could fry hamburgers on his head. That was my style, it insured me of continuous action. Guys I beat were always hot to get even with me. It gave me an edge. If I would have been able to hit them with the Efren barrages, somebody would have for sure have offed me by now.

the Beard
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Yep, Efrens' putting that SOFT con on us real good isn't he?

People would crap their pants if they heard he smashes up hotel rooms like "The Who" used to.
  
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Efren at DCC
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Efren at DCC - 02-02-2006, 06:51 PM

I have enjoyed reading all the posts in this thread and especially the one's referring to Efren's one-pocket game. It is probably impossible to ever prove who is the best of all time at the game of one-pocket, but here is one thing I know for sure: In my 45 years of watching people play the game, I have never seen a more dominating performance than Efren last three matches at DCC. He wasn't perfect (once making a horrible break against Alex), but in the 9 games he won against Alex and Jason, there were, as I recall, 5 eight & outs, 2 nine & outs, a six & out (Jason had made two balls in Efren's pocket), and almost an 8 & out in the final game (a long-rail bank just missed for a seventh ball and Efren was straight in on what would have been the game winner). In other words, in 8 of these last nine games, whenever he had a shot at his pocket, he was out. His defense in the games against Jason was so complete that I don't recall Jason ever having a shot at his pocket, not even a one-rail bank. I don't think Jason made a ball in his pocket in the three games. Just about everyone around me seemed to agree that it was the greatest one-pocket exhibition they had ever witnessed. I'm just glad I was there to see it!
  
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02-08-2006, 12:35 AM

stop it mike, you're making me wanna drop another $100 to accustats. they were there right?
  
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02-24-2006, 03:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by freddy the beard
You are right on the beam. For the top players to have a chance with Effy, they must first stop adoring him! I played Effy many, many times and had great success with him (which means I didn't lose every time I played him). When I was playing out of Bensingers in Chicago, we had an attitude that everybody who walked through the door was a sucker. We looked upon everybody as just fresh meat. Champions received few accolades in Bensingers. Bensingers had been the home to Champions for 80 years, so we were comfortable around champions. If there was going to be any pre game intimidating it was going to be done by us. That was the main reason most road players who came to Chicago stayed well clear of Bensingers. Effy is the greatest player in the game, but his success rate in short race tournament matches is disproportionate to the competition he faces. I watch these matches and notice that nobody ever tries to put any Psyche on Efren. They just gentlemanly put their heads on the block and let Effy chop it off. I would love to get a guy like Joyner or Frost and teach them the more insidious, psychological side of competing. I would show them how to make the match more painful for the opponent. To ingrave my point, has anyone ever seen Efren not having a nice time at the table?

the Beard

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I disagree with you completely. When the pros play Efren they rarely play bad. I have 11 tapes of Efren playing different pros. He lost four of those matches I have, and each and every tape they both shot on average .900. I have seen Efren play so many times, and when he plays amatuers, yes they fall apart, but rarely when he plays another pro do they play like a chicken. Everyone knows what Efren is capable of, and most people try to avoid safety battles with him. Efren does not play just as good as your average top pro, his cueball control and kicking is in another world, and the other pros acknowledge that and adjust their games accordingly. Engaging in a safety battle with Efren is like trying to put out a fire with gasoline

By the way, many old timers have played or seen your buddy Arty play 1-pocket, but they still say Efren is the greatest. You may have thought he was a sucker then, but he didn't play one pocket as good as he does now.


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02-24-2006, 05:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cuetechasaurus
Efren does not play just as good as your average top pro, his cueball control and kicking is in another world, and the other pros acknowledge that and adjust their games accordingly.
statements like this were the reason i started this discussion. is it just me, or isn't stuff like this largely overstated? efren has a cueball that is "in another world" when compared to parica or buddy (for example)??? i would think efrens cueball is very good of course. but, if you could rate players cueball control on a scale, efren would be high, we all know that. but, there would be players near or even above him, and many, many players very near him. but, somehow in the pool world every accolade and overstatement gets thrown efrens way. but that's no big deal, i really don't mind. this thread was about how efren wins more than he should considering the fact that the races are normally short and the other players play almost as well. i have my opinions as to how he does it previously in this thread.

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02-24-2006, 06:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by enzo
statements like this were the reason i started this discussion. is it just me, or isn't stuff like this largely overstated? efren has a cueball that is "in another world" when compared to parica or buddy (for example)??? i would think efrens cueball is very good of course. but, if you could rate players cueball control on a scale, efren would be high, we all know that. but, there would be players near or even above him, and many, many players very near him. but, somehow in the pool world every accolade and overstatement gets thrown efrens way. but that's no big deal, i really don't mind. this thread was about how efren wins more than he should considering the fact that the races are normally short and the other players play almost as well. i have my opinions as to how he does it previously in this thread.
Buddy is known for playing close-up perfect position. Efren is known for being able to get the cueball to go places that nobody else would even dream of. The difference is that there are certain racks that Efren runs out that Buddy, Parica, Sigel, or anyone else wouldn't get out, they would probably duck. I personally think that you haven't seen Efren play enough. You probably saw a couple of his mediocre performances and based your opinions on him from that.

I also noticed that when quoting me, you didn't include what I said about how Efren kicks. That is probably the most outstanding part of his game.

Also, I will tell you exactly how and why Efren is able to win all of those short races, etc. It's not because he is feared. It's because he is able to change the percentages in his favor for winning a game more often than other players. His kicking alone wins him many more games than any player out there. He is able to win in situations that he is supposed to have the worst of.


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my final word on this
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my final word on this - 02-25-2006, 04:13 PM

the fact is, despite what people think, all the top players really play very close. is efren a little better than the rest? perhaps, but people make largely overstated comments about efrens game all the time considering how close other players are to him. people love to talk about the unbeatable quality of a certain player, and shake their heads in disbelief when they watch him play. i guess it's just human nature.

pool is all about gaining an edge over your opponent, because when it comes down to it, all the players play well enough to win. efren knows this better than anybody. in one of my previous posts, i thought it would be interesting to do an experiment. ask efren who his favorite pool player is. again, if he tells you a name maybe i'm wrong, but if he doens't answer then to me that means he is very concerned with projecting an image of supeiriority.... he wants to win by making his opponent believe he has no chance. what could you conclude from this, that he knows that people play good enough to beat him, and he's looking for an edge.

to wrap this up, the last thing i am is a efren basher or something like that. i think if you read all the posts on this thread you'll find the opposite. my comments are based more out of my interest in sports psychology. more specifically, the pattern i have witnessed many times where a number of top players, in any sport, will battle it out for a period of time, all seemingly very close in skill level. then, one day a player wins say the world championship, and starts getting accolades left and right, his ego being boosted all the time, and next thing you know nobody can touch him. why is that? imo it has to do with peoples thoughts, statements and reactions to him, and less with the players actual skill level being that far above the other players.
  
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03-06-2006, 04:24 AM

I too enjoy the study of sport psychology. I agree that in many sports where the top players are very close in ability that the psychology of who is perceived to be the "best" at the current time does become a factor in the mind of the opponent of the "best". This is not the case with Efren. That psychology may allow the "best" to stay on top a little longer than they should, but with abilities so close, they don't stay on top forever in other sports. Efren has been on top forever. I will also point out that when Efren first hit the U.S., nobody knew who he was while he played tournaments under the name Caesar Morales(I think the name's correct). He won one tournament after another with opponents not knowing he was the "best". People have competed closely and sometimes beaten Efren in tournaments, but even though they go to 11 or 13, they are relatively short sets. Nobody will get there in the long run playing him. I've been around pool for many years and Efren is the greatest player to play the game in my time. With every great player though, they usually have some weakness. Efren's is his break in nineball. He doesn't have a powerfull break. If he had a break like Archer's or Bustamante's, he'd win almost every nineball tounament out there. The break isn't as big a factor in eightball as it is in nineball which is why you'll see Efren as "King of the Hill" for a long time on the IPT. You don't use a powerfull break in one pocket, so in that game, he has no weakness. That's why he can give Cliff Joyner 9-7. Cliff is possibly the second best one pocket player in the world with Jose Parica putting up a good arguement for that title. Efren already gave Cliff 8-7 and robbed him. When the best player in the world can give the second best player in the world 9-7, that's not psychology, that's talent. Efren has the best cueball control, he has the best stroke, and his imagination is unparallel. If you don't believe me, you can watch some accu-stat matches of his and listen to the commentators. His shape play fools the commentators' predictions in his matches more than any other player out there with his position always ending up better than the announcers' suggestions. They continously talk about how he sees things other great players don't. You want to do an experiment by asking Efren who he thinks is the greatest player out there, you should ask every other player who has played him that question and watch them all respond with the name of Efren. Just about every player in the world can't be wrong can they?
  
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03-06-2006, 09:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by enzo
statements like this were the reason i started this discussion. is it just me, or isn't stuff like this largely overstated? efren has a cueball that is "in another world" when compared to parica or buddy (for example)??? i would think efrens cueball is very good of course. but, if you could rate players cueball control on a scale, efren would be high, we all know that. but, there would be players near or even above him, and many, many players very near him. but, somehow in the pool world every accolade and overstatement gets thrown efrens way. but that's no big deal, i really don't mind. this thread was about how efren wins more than he should considering the fact that the races are normally short and the other players play almost as well. i have my opinions as to how he does it previously in this thread.
I have been going to pro tournaments for 35 years and have seen the very best play and have never seen anyone put the cue ball in places or do the things with it that efren does. He uses kill english better than anyone I have ever seen and this makes him unbeatable in one pocket, make one mistake in the first rack and you lose the match. You say his cueball control is just good? Are you sure you have seen him play in person? You are the first person I have ever heard say that and I am really amazed.
  
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03-07-2006, 12:43 AM

Its obvious that you have never spent quality time seeing Efren play. Ive watched him for hours not only in tournaments but in high action and cheap sets. Also "friendly" games with Filipino comrades like Parica and Luat where nothing was on the line but a hundred but a lot of ego which was more precious.
Ive seen Efren run 5 or six racks. One time in LA he ran 8 against Alex Pagulayan. How can he run all those racks with a "weak" break? He has a rack that suits his game. He doesnt slam em and jam em with a loud sound ala Shannon or Busta but one that allows him to run out when he pockets a ball.
All you are doing is parroting what some non entity who wants to point out something negative about a great player. His break is fine.
  
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What? - 03-07-2006, 11:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by yobagua
Its obvious that you have never spent quality time seeing Efren play.
First off, I promise you I've spent more time watching Efren play than you on accu-stats, TV, and in person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yobagua
Ive seen Efren run 5 or six racks. One time in LA he ran 8 against Alex Pagulayan. How can he run all those racks with a "weak" break? He has a rack that suits his game. He doesnt slam em and jam em with a loud sound ala Shannon or Busta but one that allows him to run out when he pockets a ball.
Secondly, WOW, you've seen Efren run fives and sixes and you even seen him hit Alex with an eight! Earl won his million by running ten. Him and Archer have run sets out along with other great powerhouse breakers. Do you think they play better or as good as Efren? Ofcourse they don't! He runs balls better than any living human and has for not years, but for decades. If you think his break is good, then you are saying that the other top pros that win tournaments play as well as he does, which they don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yobagua
All you are doing is parroting what some non entity who wants to point out something negative about a great player. His break is fine.
Lastly, you are correct. His break is fine and is sufficient for him because he runs out better than anyone, but it's not great. Every other aspect of his game is great other than banks. You'll probably want to argue that he's a great banker too, right? He does bank good, but he doesn't bank great. His kicks, safes, kick safes, shot making, and position play are either even with or above any other player. If you thinks he breaks so good, go back and watch the 2005(maybe 2004) finals of the International Challenge of Champions with him against Bustamante. I believe the final set score was 7-1 Bustamante. Efren never missed a ball. It is an alternating break format and the only game he won was when he made a ball on the break, one time, and ran out. All the other games he broke, didn't make a ball, and Francisco ran out. Every game Bustamante broke, he made a ball and ran out.
Parroting some non entity? I speak my own mind since I have been around the game and great players for about 20 years now. However, what I have said is something many others have said before. You can hear Bill Incardona speak the same comments I have made on some of Efren's Accu-stat matches. I guess Billy don't know what he's talking about, huh? He's only been around the game all his life and seen every great player at one time or another. Do you think he got the commentator role on Accu-stats because he don't know what he's talking about? Efren tried to get Buddy to help him with his break years ago. Ask any of the top players and they will agree with me. Efren knows he has a weak break compared to some of the other great players. It's more of an even playing field though when they are playing on tighter pocket tables since less balls go on the break.
Anyway, like I've stated before, Efren is the greatest player to ever live, atleast in my time. I never got to watch Luther play in his prime, but out of everyone I've ever witnessed, Efren is the best. So, if you think I was talking bad about Efren, there you have it. My only point was if Efren had Bustamante's break, he'd win almost every nineball tournament he played. If his break wasn't a big factor in nineball tournaments, then why does he win just about every one pocket or eightball tournament he plays?
  
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03-08-2006, 12:06 AM

Thank you nine baller for posting a concise and thoughtful response to my post. One thing my tape collection is in the thousands. I have all of Efrens tape from accustats. I have many tapes of Efren from Filipino tv as well as Efren playng in Japan. Blomhdahl playing nine ball with Efren as well as 3 cushion. I also have Efren playing in Europe.
I also have been around since the 60's and seen Luther play as well as Balsis, Crane, etc.
But this is not a contest as to who has seen more Efren than each other. The point is YOU used the word "weakness". Implying that it was Efrens weakness in his game. I beg to disagree. He does runs racks because he has a GOOD break. But because he plays so great in other areas we tend to see his break as "weak". I dont think it is.
I guess I am responding to others who have said willy nilly on this board that so and so could beat Efren because he has a "weak" break. I did not intend to accuse you of not knowing what you are talking about. I agree with you that Efren is great but I dont think that his break is his weakness.
  
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03-08-2006, 01:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by nineballer
First off, I promise you I've spent more time watching Efren play than you on accu-stats, TV, and in person.


Secondly, WOW, you've seen Efren run fives and sixes and you even seen him hit Alex with an eight! Earl won his million by running ten. Him and Archer have run sets out along with other great powerhouse breakers. Do you think they play better or as good as Efren? Ofcourse they don't! He runs balls better than any living human and has for not years, but for decades. If you think his break is good, then you are saying that the other top pros that win tournaments play as well as he does, which they don't.


Lastly, you are correct. His break is fine and is sufficient for him because he runs out better than anyone, but it's not great. Every other aspect of his game is great other than banks. You'll probably want to argue that he's a great banker too, right? He does bank good, but he doesn't bank great. His kicks, safes, kick safes, shot making, and position play are either even with or above any other player. If you thinks he breaks so good, go back and watch the 2005(maybe 2004) finals of the International Challenge of Champions with him against Bustamante. I believe the final set score was 7-1 Bustamante. Efren never missed a ball. It is an alternating break format and the only game he won was when he made a ball on the break, one time, and ran out. All the other games he broke, didn't make a ball, and Francisco ran out. Every game Bustamante broke, he made a ball and ran out.
Parroting some non entity? I speak my own mind since I have been around the game and great players for about 20 years now. However, what I have said is something many others have said before. You can hear Bill Incardona speak the same comments I have made on some of Efren's Accu-stat matches. I guess Billy don't know what he's talking about, huh? He's only been around the game all his life and seen every great player at one time or another. Do you think he got the commentator role on Accu-stats because he don't know what he's talking about? Efren tried to get Buddy to help him with his break years ago. Ask any of the top players and they will agree with me. Efren knows he has a weak break compared to some of the other great players. It's more of an even playing field though when they are playing on tighter pocket tables since less balls go on the break.
Anyway, like I've stated before, Efren is the greatest player to ever live, atleast in my time. I never got to watch Luther play in his prime, but out of everyone I've ever witnessed, Efren is the best. So, if you think I was talking bad about Efren, there you have it. My only point was if Efren had Bustamante's break, he'd win almost every nineball tournament he played. If his break wasn't a big factor in nineball tournaments, then why does he win just about every one pocket or eightball tournament he plays?
Efren's break isn't weak. A while back they clocked his break speed on average 27 mph. You don't see him break hard all the time because often he doesn't need to. If you want to see some powerhouse breaking, watch the last few tapes of The Color of Money match against Earl Strickland. Efren was smashing the rack apart and squatting the cueball. He broke and ran like 25 racks out of about 40 when he caught that gear.

And what exactly did Billy Incardona say about Efren's break? Because I just finished watching a tape where Billy said that Efren having a weak break is a myth, and he in fact is the one that said they clocked him doing 27-28 mph. I also don't know why you say his kicking ability is at par or slightly above other players. That is the aspect of his game that is far and away better than any pool player out there.


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03-12-2006, 09:21 PM

That was some nice information Mike. It was a pleasure meeting you as well.
  
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nineballer
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03-14-2006, 01:49 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by yobagua
Thank you nine baller for posting a concise and thoughtful response to my post. One thing my tape collection is in the thousands. I have all of Efrens tape from accustats. I have many tapes of Efren from Filipino tv as well as Efren playng in Japan. Blomhdahl playing nine ball with Efren as well as 3 cushion. I also have Efren playing in Europe.
I also have been around since the 60's and seen Luther play as well as Balsis, Crane, etc.
But this is not a contest as to who has seen more Efren than each other. The point is YOU used the word "weakness". Implying that it was Efrens weakness in his game. I beg to disagree. He does runs racks because he has a GOOD break. But because he plays so great in other areas we tend to see his break as "weak". I dont think it is.
I guess I am responding to others who have said willy nilly on this board that so and so could beat Efren because he has a "weak" break. I did not intend to accuse you of not knowing what you are talking about. I agree with you that Efren is great but I dont think that his break is his weakness.
It was not my intention to start a who's seen Efren more contest. My collection isn't as big as yours, but I'm sure you don't have many I haven't seen. Yes I did use the word "weakness" and I guess it's because Efren does everything else so well. Don't get me wrong, his break and banks are good, but in comparison to the rest of his game, I feel they are weak. They are the only aspects of his game that anyone can argue the point that their may be someone out there that can do those better than him. I apologize, I should have clarified myself more on the point. When I used the word "weakness", I was using it in the terms of the Efren Scale where everything is perfect. On the scale of all other players, his break is good. As far as someone saying so and so could beat Efren because of his break, so and so might be able to be competitive with Efren in short sets because they might have a better break. In the long run, Efren will get there. We are allowed to disagree, but I still contend that if Efren broke the balls in nineball as well as he does mostly everything else, he would win almost every nineball tournament on the planet. Sorry about my previous post. I just didn't want you thinking I was some idiot spouting off about something I had no clue about or hadn't invested the time in researching the matter(i.e. logged many hours watching Efren play).
  
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