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06-18-2019, 05:18 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9 Ball Fan View Post
Second Round:

Efren Reyes 2
Earl Strickland 1
SVB 1
Johnny Archer 1

On the biggest stages, under the brightest lights, with the largest prize checks ever; Efren could catch a gear and beat anyone, and make it look like he was unbeatable.

Strickland, SVB, and Archer have made 9 Ball look easy at times. Look at all of their tournament wins.

SVB "loves" 10 Ball.
Here's the Current Top 10 GOAT List (see the first post for more info and voting instructions):

Rank - Name - Score

1 - Efren Reyes - 173
2 - Earl Strickland - 92
3 - Shane Van Boening - 91
4 - Nick Varner - 82
5 - Alex Pagulayan - 80
6 - Mike Sigel - 65
7 - Wu Chia-ching - 49
8 - Francisco Bustamante - 49
9 - Dennis Ocollo - 44
10 - Johnny Archer - 44
11 - Buddy Hall - 43

People who have already voted in the second round (total number: 19): 9 Ball Fan, atlas333, Bob Jewett, dr_dave, Get_A_Grip, highkarate, icucybe, JazzyJeff87, mark187, Poolmanis, RailBanger, ricardo, Runnintable, SamShaddey, Scratch85, sjm, skogstokig, TX Poolnut, West Point 1987.

Thank you for participating,
Dave

PS: Remember, we're not just determining the consensus GOAT. We are also identifying the consensus Top 10 GOAT. So chose your vote points with this in mind. Voting ends on 6/30/2019, at which point the 11th spot will be dropped.
  
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06-18-2019, 05:19 AM

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Originally Posted by Scratch85 View Post
Surprised by the drop-off from 5 to 7. Don’t disagree with the position but definitely don’t see a 32 point difference between Alex and Wu, with Sigel firmly in the middle. I see them as quite equal with time being the provenance.
I agree, but democracy has spoken.

Regards,
Dave

PS: Unfortunately, democracy isn't always perfect.
  
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06-18-2019, 05:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
John Horgan!?! Stumped me. He won both the pool and carom championships.

For those who want to see the basis for the rankings, they appeared in four consecutive issues of Billiards Digest:

August 1999 # 35-50
September 1999 # 21-35
October 1999 # 6-20
November 1999 # 1-5

At the end of the first article, there is a list of those who didn't quite make the cut and those who were excluded because they were not Americans. Both lists are alphabetical in the magazine and the numbering is mine for convenience. Any spelling erors are the fault of Billiards Digest.

Missed the cut:
  1. Ronnie Allen
  2. Jay Bozeman
  3. Kim Davenport
  4. Danny Diliberto
  5. Robin Dodson
  6. Mike Eufemia
  7. Carlos Hallon
  8. Gerda Hofstatter
  9. Bob Hunter
  10. Tom Jennings
  11. George Kelley
  12. Mary Kenniston-Guarino
  13. Augie Kieckhefer
  14. Johnny Kling
  15. Ewa Laurance
  16. Onofrio Lauri
  17. Edward Lee
  18. Larry Lisciotti
  19. Jose Parica
  20. Joe Procita
  21. Edward Ralph
  22. Louie Roberts
  23. Andrew St. Jean
  24. Vivian Villarreal
  25. Charles Weston
Damn furriners:
  1. Torbjörn Blomdahl
  2. Raymond Ceulemans
  3. Fong-Pang Chao
  4. Roger Conti
  5. Karen Corr
  6. Fred Davis
  7. Joe Davis
  8. Steve Davis
  9. Ludo Dielis
  10. Stephen Hendry
  11. Alex Higgins
  12. Dick Jaspers
  13. Nobuaki Kobayashi
  14. Walter Lindrum
  15. Kinrey Matsuyama
  16. Oliver Ortmann
  17. John Pulman
  18. Ray Reardon
  19. Isidro Ribas
  20. Ralf Souquet
  21. Edmond Sousa
  22. Raymond Steylaerts
  23. Maurice Vignaux
  24. Rene Vingerhoedt
  25. Rex Williams

That makes a total of 100 players considered. Perhaps Stu is not quite as senile as he was thinking.

And as far as the original top 10, five or six of the foreigners easily belong in that group.
Thanks for the info Bob! I look forward to looking up and reading through those articles.

Regards,
Dave
  
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06-18-2019, 05:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by gordml View Post
Second round :

Alex Pagulayan - 5
You just bumped Alex from 5 to 4 above Nick.

Here's the Current Top 10 GOAT List (see the first post for more info and voting instructions):

Rank - Name - Score

1 - Efren Reyes - 173
2 - Earl Strickland - 92
3 - Shane Van Boening - 91
4 - Alex Pagulayan - 85
5 - Nick Varner - 82
6 - Mike Sigel - 65
7 - Wu Chia-ching - 49
8 - Francisco Bustamante - 49
9 - Dennis Ocollo - 44
10 - Johnny Archer - 44
11 - Buddy Hall - 43


People who have already voted in the second round (total number: 20): 9 Ball Fan, atlas333, Bob Jewett, dr_dave, Get_A_Grip, gordml, highkarate, icucybe, JazzyJeff87, mark187, Poolmanis, RailBanger, ricardo, Runnintable, SamShaddey, Scratch85, sjm, skogstokig, TX Poolnut, West Point 1987.

Thank you for participating,
Dave

PS: Remember, we're not just determining the consensus GOAT. We are also identifying the consensus Top 10 GOAT. So chose your vote points with this in mind. Voting ends on 6/30/2019, at which point the 11th spot will be dropped.
  
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06-18-2019, 05:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by noMoreSchon View Post
Alex 3
Sigel 2
I know Efren is the GOAT...
Strickland, 3 time world 9 ball champion.
Varner 1 in 1999...
And Efren 1 also.
Alex has one, and the only one to win Gold medals in snooker...So who is it going to be for # 2...?

Mike Sigel is my vote...just based on the respect given to him by the actual GOAT.
Alex gets it too, this time I am leaving Varner out...
Here's the Current Top 10 GOAT List (see the first post for more info and voting instructions):

Rank - Name - Score

1 - Efren Reyes - 173
2 - Earl Strickland - 92
3 - Shane Van Boening - 91
4 - Alex Pagulayan - 88
5 - Nick Varner - 82
6 - Mike Sigel - 67
7 - Wu Chia-ching - 49
8 - Francisco Bustamante - 49
9 - Dennis Ocollo - 44
10 - Johnny Archer - 44
11 - Buddy Hall - 43

People who have already voted in the second round (total number: 21): 9 Ball Fan, atlas333, Bob Jewett, dr_dave, Get_A_Grip, gordml, highkarate, icucybe, JazzyJeff87, mark187, noMoreSchon, Poolmanis, RailBanger, ricardo, Runnintable, SamShaddey, Scratch85, sjm, skogstokig, TX Poolnut, West Point 1987.

Thank you for participating,
Dave

PS: Remember, we're not just determining the consensus GOAT. We are also identifying the consensus Top 10 GOAT. So chose your vote points with this in mind. Voting ends on 6/30/2019, at which point the 11th spot will be dropped.
  
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06-18-2019, 05:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jay helfert View Post
My list would look a lot different. My yardstick being who were considered the best players of their respective eras by their peers. I was witness to every era since the 1960's so here's the guys who impressed me and that were boasted about by the best (older) players who were playing before I came along.

EVERYONE raved about Ralph Greenleaf, and to a man the old timers rated him above Mosconi. Same with Johnny "Rags" Fitpatrick, who was considered the best money player (i.e, the best player!) in the 1950's by his peers. After him Lassiter was The Man in pool! Harold Worst exploded on the pool world after winning everything at Three Cushions. Almost immediately he was beating everybody, both in tournaments and for money. Even Lassiter didn't want any part of him. To this day he may be the best pool player I ever watched play the game. He had it all - poise, composure, talent and the will to win. Like all true champions he played better when all the chips were on the line.

Ed Kelly was the best All Around player for a good ten years, meaning no one could beat him playing all games. He excelled in every aspect of pool and at all the various games. Ronnie Allen dominated One Pocket (maybe the most difficult pool game) for over twenty years and so did Efren. Jose Parica was the acknowledged king of the hill for money for a good twenty years himself. No one would play him even!

Earl was the best tournament 9-Ball player ever and Buddy Hall won more pool tournaments than anyone before or since. Buddy excelled on big or small tables and was amazingly consistent. He had three speeds - good, better and best! I NEVER saw him play a bad match. He didn't have let downs.

Mizerak was the best pool player on the planet until Earl came along. He was the favorite in any tournament he entered in the 1970's to 80's, along with Buddy and then Sigel (all pre-Earl). Even Sigel kept finishing second to the Mighty Miz, whether it be 14.1, 9-Ball or One Pocket.

Taylor and Bugs were the best bankers who ever lived, period! One other man who deserves mention on here is Walter Lindrum from Australia. He was also before my time, but his historical record is unmatched in tournament pool. He never seemed to lose to anybody! Probably only Mike Shamos has all his records somewhere, but I know he was superlative.

Yes, Mosconi was the greatest in an era full of great 14.1 players - Crane, Caras, Cranfield, Ponzi and more. So he's right up there too.

I don't know if it's possible to rate these guys for a top ten, but I'll try.

1. Harold Worst
2. Walter Lindrum
3. Ralph Greenleaf
4. Luther Lassiter
5. Jose Parica
6. Willie Mosconi
7. Efren Reyes
8. Buddy Hall
9. Steve Mizerak
10.(tie) Rags Fitzpatrick and Mike Sigel

Honorable Mention - Earl Strickland and Ed Kelly
Jay,

If you want to make your opinion official, please vote per the info in the first post.

Thanks,
Dave

PS: Do you really think Efren should be 7th on any GOAT pool player list?
  
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06-18-2019, 05:35 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by maha View Post
segal2
efrin 2
earl1

for the top ten.
which should be for the top ten in the 1990's and above by looking at the voting and who is doing it.

left out of people that were tops in 1970 to 1980
steve cook
cardone
rempe
toby sweet
marino
Here's the Current Top 10 GOAT List (see the first post for more info and voting instructions):

Rank - Name - Score

1 - Efren Reyes - 175
2 - Earl Strickland - 93
3 - Shane Van Boening - 91
4 - Alex Pagulayan - 88
5 - Nick Varner - 82
6 - Mike Sigel - 69
7 - Wu Chia-ching - 49
8 - Francisco Bustamante - 49
9 - Dennis Ocollo - 44
10 - Johnny Archer - 44
11 - Buddy Hall - 43

People who have already voted in the second round (total number: 22): 9 Ball Fan, atlas333, Bob Jewett, dr_dave, Get_A_Grip, gordml, highkarate, icucybe, JazzyJeff87, maha, mark187, noMoreSchon, Poolmanis, RailBanger, ricardo, Runnintable, SamShaddey, Scratch85, sjm, skogstokig, TX Poolnut, West Point 1987.

Thank you for participating,
Dave

PS: Remember, we're not just determining the consensus GOAT. We are also identifying the consensus Top 10 GOAT. So chose your vote points with this in mind. Voting ends on 6/30/2019, at which point the 11th spot will be dropped.
  
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06-18-2019, 06:45 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jay helfert View Post
My list would look a lot different. My yardstick being who were considered the best players of their respective eras by their peers. I was witness to every era since the 1960's so here's the guys who impressed me and that were boasted about by the best (older) players who were playing before I came along.

EVERYONE raved about Ralph Greenleaf, and to a man the old timers rated him above Mosconi. Same with Johnny "Rags" Fitpatrick, who was considered the best money player (i.e, the best player!) in the 1950's by his peers. After him Lassiter was The Man in pool! Harold Worst exploded on the pool world after winning everything at Three Cushions. Almost immediately he was beating everybody, both in tournaments and for money. Even Lassiter didn't want any part of him. To this day he may be the best pool player I ever watched play the game. He had it all - poise, composure, talent and the will to win. Like all true champions he played better when all the chips were on the line.

Ed Kelly was the best All Around player for a good ten years, meaning no one could beat him playing all games. He excelled in every aspect of pool and at all the various games. Ronnie Allen dominated One Pocket (maybe the most difficult pool game) for over twenty years and so did Efren. Jose Parica was the acknowledged king of the hill for money for a good twenty years himself. No one would play him even!

Earl was the best tournament 9-Ball player ever and Buddy Hall won more pool tournaments than anyone before or since. Buddy excelled on big or small tables and was amazingly consistent. He had three speeds - good, better and best! I NEVER saw him play a bad match. He didn't have let downs.

Mizerak was the best pool player on the planet until Earl came along. He was the favorite in any tournament he entered in the 1970's to 80's, along with Buddy and then Sigel (all pre-Earl). Even Sigel kept finishing second to the Mighty Miz, whether it be 14.1, 9-Ball or One Pocket.

Taylor and Bugs were the best bankers who ever lived, period! One other man who deserves mention on here is Walter Lindrum from Australia. He was also before my time, but his historical record is unmatched in tournament pool. He never seemed to lose to anybody! Probably only Mike Shamos has all his records somewhere, but I know he was superlative.

Yes, Mosconi was the greatest in an era full of great 14.1 players - Crane, Caras, Cranfield, Ponzi and more. So he's right up there too.

I don't know if it's possible to rate these guys for a top ten, but I'll try.

1. Harold Worst
2. Walter Lindrum
3. Ralph Greenleaf
4. Luther Lassiter
5. Jose Parica
6. Willie Mosconi
7. Efren Reyes
8. Buddy Hall
9. Steve Mizerak
10.(tie) Rags Fitzpatrick and Mike Sigel

Honorable Mention - Earl Strickland and Ed Kelly
Great top ten. Very tough exercise, but I agree that one's achievements against one's own peers in one's own era should be the measuring stick for greatness.

Funny how forgotten the great Greenleaf is. I once talked "Mosconi vs Greenleaf" with Charlie Ursitti, whom I've known for many years. Charlie related that while Mosconi, of all the 14.1 players he'd ever seen, was statistically the most likely to win a game in one inning, Greenleaf was statistically more likely than Mosconi to win a game in two innings or less. These guys were head and shoulders above the other straight poolers in the top five ever, who, for my money and in no particular order, are Crane, Sigel and Mizerak.

I think people tend to overlook Lassiter a bit, too. All he did was win two of the three disciplines at Johnston City three years running in the early 1960's, an almost unfathomable achievement given that every event there seemed to have over 20 current/future hall of famers ... but Lassiter really was THAT good.
  
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06-18-2019, 07:11 AM

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Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
Discussions about the "Greatest of All Time" (GOAT) Pool Players seems to be a popular topic on AZB and Facebook, so I thought it would be fun and interesting to semi-scientifically identify a consensus opinion with input from as many AZB users as possible. First, I've done some research to come up with an initial Top 25 with grouped rating scores (see below). This list will be revised by votes from AZB users. I know some people will disagree with my initial ranking and scores, but that's what the voting is for. You can also influence how other people vote by making a case for your favorite players in your posts.

Your vote consists of 5 points that you can use however you wish. Here are some examples of how you can vote:

Reyes 5 (indicating Efren should keep the top spot on the list)

Strickland 3, Rempe 2 (indicating Earl and Jim should both be higher on the list)

Hall 1, Varner 1, Sigel 1, Archer 1, Orcollo 1 (indicating all of these players should be just a little higher on the list)

I will keep a running total of scores for each player; and on 6/16/2019, I will start a second round of voting with the Top 10 selected from the first round of voting. That way, we can refine the final Top 10. You only get to vote once in each round. I will keep a list of the voters to prevent multiple votes. All votes must be public as posts in this thread, and you are not allowed to change your vote. Second round voting will end on 6/30/2019.

Initial Ranking with First-Round Voting Scores

Rank - Name - Score

1 - Efren Reyes - 166
2 - Shane Van Boening - 75
3 - Wu Chia-ching - 40
4 - Earl Strickland - 73
5 - Mike Sigel - 63
6 - Nick Varner - 73
7 - Buddy Hall - 42
8 - Johnny Archer - 43
9 - Mika Immonen - 35
10 - Jim Rempe - 35
11 - Steve Miserzak - 37
12 - Allen Hopkins - 36
13 - Alex Pagulayan - 66
14 - Dennis Ocollo - 44
15 - Niels Feijen - 35
16 - Darren Appleton - 39
17 - Francisco Bustamante - 42
18 - Jayson Shaw - 30
19 - Josh Filler - 30
20 - Ralph Souquet - 32
21 - Albin Ouschan - 30
22 - Pin Yi Ko - 30
23 - Thorsten Hohmann - 27
24 - Jose Parica - 26
25 - Carlo Biado - 25

Note that I have not included players from the "straight pool era." For example, arguments can be made that Mosconi, Greenleaf, Lassiter, Hoppe, Cranfield, Crane, DeOro, Lindrum, Caras (and others) deserve to be on the list, but I purposely excluded them since it is too difficult (or impossible) for most people to compare them to players in the modern "9-ball era" (since about 1980). I at least give them honorable mention here. For those who object to this, wherever you see "GOAT" in this thread, read it as "GIME" (Greatest in the Modern Era) instead.

People who voted in the first round (total number: 59): 9 Ball Fan, AtLarge, atlas333, beetle, Bic D, Bob Jewett, CGM, Chili Palmer, Cornerman, Creedo, CrownCityCorey, deanoc, Dimeball, dontscratch, dr_dave, evergruven, follownoone, Get_A_Grip, gordml, highkarate, icucybe, JazzyJeff87, JC, jeephawk, Johnny Rosato, justadub, kkdanamatt, LeftyIke, Luxury, Magyar19, Maniac, Marc, mark187, markjames, mattb, MattPoland, megatron69, Mich, Mick, monsterdog, oldschool1478, Pete, PoloBob, PoolBum, Poolmanis, noMoreSchon, ricardo, Rico, Rimfirejunkie, SamShaddey, Scratch85, Sealegs50, sjm, Snooker Theory, spliced, Tennesseejoe, Tin Man, Tooler, TX Poolnut.

Here are the current results for the second round of voting:

Top 10 GOAT (in the modern era):

Rank - Name - Score

1 - Efren Reyes - 175
2 - Earl Strickland - 93
3 - Shane Van Boening - 91
4 - Alex Pagulayan - 88
5 - Nick Varner - 82
6 - Mike Sigel - 69
7 - Wu Chia-ching - 49
8 - Francisco Bustamante - 49
9 - Dennis Ocollo - 44
10 - Johnny Archer - 44
11 - Buddy Hall - 43

The 11th spot will be dropped at the end of voting, per post 208.

People who have already voted in the second round (total number: 22): 9 Ball Fan, atlas333, Bob Jewett, dr_dave, Get_A_Grip, gordml, highkarate, icucybe, JazzyJeff87, maha, mark187, noMoreSchon, Poolmanis, RailBanger, ricardo, Runnintable, SamShaddey, Scratch85, sjm, skogstokig, TX Poolnut, West Point 1987.

Please submit your votes and comments. This will be a meaningful exercise only if many people participate.

Thanks,
Dave
I don't quite get how this works. But for me the players who need to be higher on your list would be Parica 2, Mizerak 2 and Hall 1.


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06-18-2019, 09:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jay helfert View Post
I don't quite get how this works. But for me the players who need to be higher on your list would be Parica 2, Mizerak 2 and Hall 1.
You missed the first round of voting on the Top 25. Now, in the second round, your only option is to vote on the players in the list below (with a total score of 5). You have the option to give all 5 points to Buddy if that's what you want.

Top 10 GOAT (in the modern era):

Rank - Name - Score

1 - Efren Reyes - 175
2 - Earl Strickland - 93
3 - Shane Van Boening - 91
4 - Alex Pagulayan - 88
5 - Nick Varner - 82
6 - Mike Sigel - 69
7 - Wu Chia-ching - 49
8 - Francisco Bustamante - 49
9 - Dennis Ocollo - 44
10 - Johnny Archer - 44
11 - Buddy Hall - 43

People who have already voted in the second round (total number: 22): 9 Ball Fan, atlas333, Bob Jewett, dr_dave, Get_A_Grip, gordml, highkarate, icucybe, JazzyJeff87, maha, mark187, noMoreSchon, Poolmanis, RailBanger, ricardo, Runnintable, SamShaddey, Scratch85, sjm, skogstokig, TX Poolnut, West Point 1987.
  
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06-18-2019, 11:31 AM

Second round...Buddy Hall 5


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06-18-2019, 12:54 PM

Second round Earl 5

Seeing him at number 17 in the BD poll one spot above Allison Fisher but below Jean Balukas and others to me is proof That antics are taken into consideration when determining greatness


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06-18-2019, 01:17 PM

I agree, and for the second round I want to throw 5 points for Mike Sigel

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjm View Post
....yet Mike isn't getting much support. As he largely retired from competition in 1993, not so many AZB posters saw Mike in his prime. Even though I watched Mike as early as the late 1970's, count me among those who voted with a bias toward the current era of the game. I place Efren, the king of all-around play and simply the most imaginative player of the last thirty years, at the top. In fact, when Billiards Digest, in 2000, published its list of the 100 best players of the century, I believe Mike Sigel came third, but at least in this poll, he seems a bit forgotten, despite the fact that Earl once called Sigel "the best player I've ever seen".

Still, great poll that I sense most of us are enjoying. Thanks, Dr Dave.


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06-18-2019, 02:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jay helfert View Post
My list would look a lot different. My yardstick being who were considered the best players of their respective eras by their peers. I was witness to every era since the 1960's so here's the guys who impressed me and that were boasted about by the best (older) players who were playing before I came along.

EVERYONE raved about Ralph Greenleaf, and to a man the old timers rated him above Mosconi. Same with Johnny "Rags" Fitpatrick, who was considered the best money player (i.e, the best player!) in the 1950's by his peers. After him Lassiter was The Man in pool! Harold Worst exploded on the pool world after winning everything at Three Cushions. Almost immediately he was beating everybody, both in tournaments and for money. Even Lassiter didn't want any part of him. To this day he may be the best pool player I ever watched play the game. He had it all - poise, composure, talent and the will to win. Like all true champions he played better when all the chips were on the line.

Ed Kelly was the best All Around player for a good ten years, meaning no one could beat him playing all games. He excelled in every aspect of pool and at all the various games. Ronnie Allen dominated One Pocket (maybe the most difficult pool game) for over twenty years and so did Efren. Jose Parica was the acknowledged king of the hill for money for a good twenty years himself. No one would play him even!

Earl was the best tournament 9-Ball player ever and Buddy Hall won more pool tournaments than anyone before or since. Buddy excelled on big or small tables and was amazingly consistent. He had three speeds - good, better and best! I NEVER saw him play a bad match. He didn't have let downs.

Mizerak was the best pool player on the planet until Earl came along. He was the favorite in any tournament he entered in the 1970's to 80's, along with Buddy and then Sigel (all pre-Earl). Even Sigel kept finishing second to the Mighty Miz, whether it be 14.1, 9-Ball or One Pocket.

Taylor and Bugs were the best bankers who ever lived, period! One other man who deserves mention on here is Walter Lindrum from Australia. He was also before my time, but his historical record is unmatched in tournament pool. He never seemed to lose to anybody! Probably only Mike Shamos has all his records somewhere, but I know he was superlative.

Yes, Mosconi was the greatest in an era full of great 14.1 players - Crane, Caras, Cranfield, Ponzi and more. So he's right up there too.

I don't know if it's possible to rate these guys for a top ten, but I'll try.

1. Harold Worst
2. Walter Lindrum
3. Ralph Greenleaf
4. Luther Lassiter
5. Jose Parica
6. Willie Mosconi
7. Efren Reyes
8. Buddy Hall
9. Steve Mizerak
10.(tie) Rags Fitzpatrick and Mike Sigel

Honorable Mention - Earl Strickland and Ed Kelly
You know Jay, I've never seen half of these guys play. But don't you think if we could put Shane in a time machine and send him back to any year, that he would crush all of them in a long winner breaks set of 10 ball?
And could any of them, other than Efren , beat Alex at 1 pocket?
  
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06-18-2019, 02:23 PM

Mt second round vote:

Efren-1
Earl-1
SVB-1
Varner-1
Sigel-1

Same as the first round, and I'm sticking to my opinion that there isn't really a GOAT in the billiards/pool world. There are simply too many arguments that can be made for a lot of players (as witnessed on this thread) to be called the GOAT. There is simply not enough evidence to suggest that there even is such an animal...so to speak.


Lots of posters are just voting for their personal favorites anyway, not necessarily based on accomplishments. Even I did on a couple of them.

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