I recently had a lesson with Scott Lee. He broke down my stroke with a video camera, and said what I was doing was common. I was dropping my elbow. Scott worked with me on set,pause,freeze,and the mother drills. He earned his money because I seemed to just not get it. He was holding a water bottle on my arm to keep me from dropping my elbow. I think he got over worked picking that bottle up ,and placing it on my shoulder. I got it I think somewhat by the time I left. The key is when I practice what he taught me,if I can correct myself when I drop my elbow. The real key is if I can perform my stroke every time without dropping my elbow. We practiced for about 2 hours. I have to tell u guys I was tired afterwards. When I practice the mother drills I break them up morning and afternoon. Its easier for me that way. I just want to be able to do what Scott showed me everytime and not once inawhile. So I said I'm going to devote my practice routines to doing just what he showed me for a couple of months and see what happens form there.Scott is very patient and is willing to work with u. Sometimes bad habbits are really hard to undo. Anybody have some thoughts out there?
Lessons/Improving your game
- Thread starter chas1022
- Start date
Dropping your arm? Why is he telling you to do this? Isn't the arm dropping supose to be like a major follow through to accelerate your stroke? I mean, I heard that Scott Lee's a great instructor... but I believe that what he is saying about not to drop your elbow for a follow through does not make any sence. It "does" make sence not dropping the elbow for (for example) small - medium shots (draw or follow or whatever english you set), but for the lengthy shots, it is quite necessary to make a complete follow through.
Bad habbits are tough to break... i really believe in the muscle memory stuff, where if I do something enough times, even if it is detrimental to my stroke, my muscles 'remember' what's going on and eventually it forms a habbit. That's why when I try to correct myslef, I get tired, quicker as my muscles have to work harder to get re-grooved.
I drop my elbow from time to time, too. And, I find on the harder hits, if i'm too far away from the cue ball...i must drop my elbow in order to follow through. But when my elbow drops, on harder or softer hits, I feel as if I'm 'pushing' through the cue ball rather than stroking it.
I've been working on this, adjusting my stance, to get my upper body closer to the cue ball, so that when my stroking arm is perpendicular with the table, my cue tip is contacting the cue ball... on the 'hard' strokes, I must bring my bridge closer to my body, giving more space for a longer stroke.
Well, that's my observations... i don't know if I'm doing it 'right' or 'wrong' but the results i get with the cue ball in terms of aim and speed, is better when I'm not 'pushing' through the balls...
Cheers, Paul.
I drop my elbow from time to time, too. And, I find on the harder hits, if i'm too far away from the cue ball...i must drop my elbow in order to follow through. But when my elbow drops, on harder or softer hits, I feel as if I'm 'pushing' through the cue ball rather than stroking it.
I've been working on this, adjusting my stance, to get my upper body closer to the cue ball, so that when my stroking arm is perpendicular with the table, my cue tip is contacting the cue ball... on the 'hard' strokes, I must bring my bridge closer to my body, giving more space for a longer stroke.
Well, that's my observations... i don't know if I'm doing it 'right' or 'wrong' but the results i get with the cue ball in terms of aim and speed, is better when I'm not 'pushing' through the balls...
Cheers, Paul.
SlickRick_PCS said:
A "complete followthrough" is done using a pendulum swing, with NO elbow drop, and the grip hand coming to rest, at your chest, on a natural pivot. Dropping the elbow is not necessary to generate a 'power' stroke, and for most poolplayers, will result in errors in accuracy and repeatability. All that is required is good timing, a loose grip, and coming to a natural finish position with your tip. Everyone's natural finish position is a little different. That's what the video is for, is to help remind you where yours is, and how to fix it, if it's out of wack!
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
I do the opposite and sometimes lift my elbow which results in too low of a hit with too many miscues on draw shots. Scott helped me there.
Here's an idea if you drop your elbow: I took about 3 ft. of heavy, cotton string, made a lasso big enough from my upper arm, and tied a knot in the other end. I hang it from a recessed light (the knot smooshes between the scutcheon thingy and the ceiling, so the rope barely hangs from the ceiling), and then put my upper stroking arm through it. I setup the exact same shot over and over on the table and if I drop my elbow, the rope pulls from the light fixture. Instant feedback.
fwiw,
Jeff Livingston
Here's an idea if you drop your elbow: I took about 3 ft. of heavy, cotton string, made a lasso big enough from my upper arm, and tied a knot in the other end. I hang it from a recessed light (the knot smooshes between the scutcheon thingy and the ceiling, so the rope barely hangs from the ceiling), and then put my upper stroking arm through it. I setup the exact same shot over and over on the table and if I drop my elbow, the rope pulls from the light fixture. Instant feedback.
fwiw,
Jeff Livingston
randyg said:
Complete follow through is when you go straight through the ball. Ok, say for instance that you have the cueball right with you; prepairing with a pretty good long stroke (similar to Bustamante, Buddy Hall, whathave you... but not short like Hopkins). You're faced with a 7 foot straight-on draw shot and you have no other choice but to make that long draw shot in order to maintain position for the next ball. What's your case there? Seriously, wouldn't you just go for a 7" - 8" follow through and "drop" my arm so that my cue would follow a straight path. If my word isn't valid, try looking at Mike Massey's draw shots, or the Filipinos. Like I said on my previous post, it's likely not to drop the elbow for long or short (unless Fouette shots come about) but when it's long shots that need juice... that's when it calls up.
randyg said:
Coming from a sarcastic matter... sure, if you got the man power. But since this is reality... a foot would be sufficient. We all have our different styles; whatever works it works. Since you are a master instructor, you teach basics; so I really can't debate towards a master. I am perhaps a pawn to your queen. Yup... I can understand that. Respect.
SlickRick_PCS said:
Here's the only problem I have with the phrase "follow through".
The cue ball and the cue tip are in contact with each other less than 2000 of a second. Then the cue ball is on it's journey. No amount of follow through, begging or body english will move that cue ball off that path. That means about 1/32 of an inch into the cue ball and we have follow through.
In School we explain your "Natural Finish Position". How to get to it on every shot and what it will do in adding to your consistency. Each student has a different length of Finish, once they find that they are HOME. It's not the length that's overly important, but getting there.
There are two reasons why we have to Finish (follow through) our stroke:
1. To maintain ACCELERATION.
2. To check our ACCURACY.
By the way, you can debate anyone. Master Instructor or Pro Player, just never lose your cool. And I teach alot more than just "Basics", but 99% of the players request that we start there anyway......Thanks...SPF=randyg
Lessons
I want to clear something up. I don't want people to think I'm saying negative things about Scott or what he teaches. I think he's a very patient instructor. I believe that he breaks down your stroke and shows what to do right. What I was saying was about developing bad habits. It takes time to unbreak them and learn the right way. I also think people expect results right away. Sometimes people do get results rightaway. I saw an improvement in my game but its going to take some time to everything Scott showed me. I also think people don't really want to practice the drills to improve thier game. I believe in an old Zen saying empty your cup. I am practing what Scott showed me and only time will tell. I do believe people make up their mind to fast on something new before really giving it enough time to work. It takes work...
I want to clear something up. I don't want people to think I'm saying negative things about Scott or what he teaches. I think he's a very patient instructor. I believe that he breaks down your stroke and shows what to do right. What I was saying was about developing bad habits. It takes time to unbreak them and learn the right way. I also think people expect results right away. Sometimes people do get results rightaway. I saw an improvement in my game but its going to take some time to everything Scott showed me. I also think people don't really want to practice the drills to improve thier game. I believe in an old Zen saying empty your cup. I am practing what Scott showed me and only time will tell. I do believe people make up their mind to fast on something new before really giving it enough time to work. It takes work...
chas1022 said:
Very good post! Instructors can only share information with the student. The student must take the information and incorporate it into their game. It doesn't happen overnight, but with time and effort, the results are improvement in your game. As RandyG taught me, "Knowledge is only power when application is included."
Steve
issycue said:
That's exactly what I noticed. I've had lessons from Scott and Randy but my old habits die hard. I was noticing that on some of my shots, my elbow would drop a little at the end and the stroke would feel a little loose or wild. It was because I hadn't set up right. My arm was not at a 90 degree angle when addressing the cue ball. Depending upon how far I was stretching or leaning on the table my bridge seemed to be longer or shorter. When I do that I need to adjust where on the cue I grip it. I've been trying to look down at my arm and adjust its position as I set up on the ball, with better results lately. And Scott, I've been doing as you suggested and back to the mother drills almost daily.
Scott Lee said:
Timing is key. A small "pump" stroke will help setup your timing for your elbow drop and wrist snap... I drop my elbow on every shot.
randyg said:
Raise your elbow a little and lower it as your stroke forward with your practice strokes. It's hard to explain. The only benefit is the timing will become obvious. Use a loose wrist and you'll feel when your wrist wants to to forward.