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BarenbruggeCues
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07-16-2018, 09:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by scdiveteam View Post
I don't respond to questions replete with passive aggressive statements and negative innuendo.

I am very sorry you don't understand. Quote from Larry Fine, "I can't see, I can't see". Why? "I got my eyes closed".

My post was a direct and sycincked response to the question by creator of this thread.
You made a statement, I asked a very simple question pertaining to your statement and you continue to act like the little child you always have been since you've came to this board with your idiotic and baseless comments and statements that pertain to absolutely nothing.

I give you a chance and you are still the ahole you've always been. Quit trying to BS people your senseless wording and zero knowledge of anything to do with cues.

When you're producing this stuff that is easily seen on the outside I can only imagine what the internal garbage you create looks like.


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Ssonerai
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07-16-2018, 10:33 PM

Quote:
The wood can move after the first cut with the bandsaw. You make the first of four cuts and that first slab/fin can spring out or in due to release of tension in the wood. The two adjacent cuts will result in points not completely true. If there is any twist in that movement, one point will be acute, the other obtuse. The obtuse one won't fully seat in the 90 degree groove and look short(er) but upon close examination, the groove itself filled with glue might be even with the others. An acute one will seat in the bottom of the groove but the splices won't be clean if you look from the sides of the blank.

That is just one of the things that can go wrong even if your jigs, your blanks, and your methods are as accurate as possible.
Thank you for that explanation - a warning for things to watch for.

Quote:
or there was some major wood movement going on after things were glue assembled. Yes, I've seen movement happens on FS cues after the glue up also
I'm almost surprised if this does not happen, lol. (to some extent)
But if the joint was was right when assembled, and if it did not separate during the rest period (from stress/released stress) or as the cue is first turned to a dowel; it seems like a "well made" joint should be possible to dial in so long as both ends of the blank are manipulated as indicated by developing conditions at the splice.

Your notes and especially MVP's description clarified some of the pitfalls for me.

I really am trying to learn this stuff, so hope it does not offend people.

[IMG]What web thickness are you cutting the forearms to?[/IMG]

It turns out, thicker than i remembered. The butt i was copying at the time had full 1/8" fins & I thought that looked a little thick. So made some practice cuts at around 1/16". Then i chickened out and made them a little thicker. Keep in mind, at this point i don't know if there is an "ideal" for that end. So i decided to aim for in between. They are actually about 3/32"/.090" . Is it better if they are thicker or thinner?

Thanks!
smt

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scdiveteam
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07-17-2018, 04:09 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarenbruggeCues View Post
You made a statement, I asked a very simple question pertaining to your statement and you continue to act like the little child you always have been since you've came to this board with your idiotic and baseless comments and statements that pertain to absolutely nothing.

I give you a chance and you are still the ahole you've always been. Quit trying to BS people your senseless wording and zero knowledge of anything to do with cues.

When you're producing this stuff that is easily seen on the outside I can only imagine what the internal garbage you create looks like.


You gave me a chance? LOL. Am I suppose to feel special or blessed somehow?

Referring to 70,000 psi epoxy as bondo was the tip off for me revealing you as a hater in the first degree. Your question was not serious, only a means to an end to attack and make you feel better abou yourself. This is a pattern you seem to embrace. I am sorry you don't like what I do.

My advice to you is to focus on things that bring joy to your life. You can learn how to be happy and change your ways. Your self loathing can be modified. There are professionals you may seek out that can help you.

Making yourself feel good by attacking others shows your real weakness. Narcissism. JMO.

Over and out.

Ricky



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07-17-2018, 05:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssonerai View Post
Thank you for that explanation - a warning for things to watch for.



I'm almost surprised if this does not happen, lol. (to some extent)
But if the joint was was right when assembled, and if it did not separate during the rest period (from stress/released stress) or as the cue is first turned to a dowel; it seems like a "well made" joint should be possible to dial in so long as both ends of the blank are manipulated as indicated by developing conditions at the splice.

Your notes and especially MVP's description clarified some of the pitfalls for me.

I really am trying to learn this stuff, so hope it does not offend people.

[IMG]What web thickness are you cutting the forearms to?[/IMG]

It turns out, thicker than i remembered. The butt i was copying at the time had full 1/8" fins & I thought that looked a little thick. So made some practice cuts at around 1/16". Then i chickened out and made them a little thicker. Keep in mind, at this point i don't know if there is an "ideal" for that end. So i decided to aim for in between. They are actually about 3/32"/.090" . Is it better if they are thicker or thinner?

Thanks!
smt
Asking if it is "better" to have thicker or thinner webs/gaps requires some sort of criteria to answer.

In general, the thickest webs are found on house cues and lower priced blanks. They are easier to do, as you can testify with your "chickened out" comment. As you go up the chain in blanks, the webs get a little thinner.

Most customers probably don't care, but a lot appreciate the thinner or sharper return points. A few really appreciate them, but probably don't understand how nearly impossible it is for the return points to be "fully sharp".


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07-17-2018, 07:47 AM

By "chickened out" I meant stylistically. The butt i was using for reference was a FS butt blank from Cue Supply in Fla that i regretted buying because it did not have the BE advertised in the picture, and it had sloppy glue lines requiring some filler. It had full 1/8" fins, so when i went thinner, i though "well maybe this is wrong, they must know something i don't". Stylistically (esthetically) i did not know which might be preferred. I can actually see it both ways from a style perspective.

It's actually more difficult to cut it wider than about 3/32 on a band saw and get a flat bottom. Maybe the blank from CS was cut on a tablesaw, i don't know. That would take 8 cuts instead of 4. (total)

I can see how making it less than about .040 - .035 might be tricky, though. The band needs enough set so it cuts a straight line and does not try to follow the grain, as it will if you dress all the set off. So an .025 band is probably good for down to maybe a .030 - .035 kerf?

Thanks for the explanations you've taken the time to offer.

smt
  
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07-17-2018, 08:29 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssonerai View Post
By "chickened out" I meant stylistically. The butt i was using for reference was a FS butt blank from Cue Supply in Fla that i regretted buying because it did not have the BE advertised in the picture, and it had sloppy glue lines requiring some filler. It had full 1/8" fins, so when i went thinner, i though "well maybe this is wrong, they must know something i don't". Stylistically (esthetically) i did not know which might be preferred. I can actually see it both ways from a style perspective.

It's actually more difficult to cut it wider than about 3/32 on a band saw and get a flat bottom. Maybe the blank from CS was cut on a tablesaw, i don't know. That would take 8 cuts instead of 4. (total)

I can see how making it less than about .040 - .035 might be tricky, though. The band needs enough set so it cuts a straight line and does not try to follow the grain, as it will if you dress all the set off. So an .025 band is probably good for down to maybe a .030 - .035 kerf?

Thanks for the explanations you've taken the time to offer.

smt
When I said it was more difficult to go thinner, it was at least partially implied going thinner than the band set would allow without manually dressing up the base of the points. Yes, the same can be said for going significantly larger than the saw kerf.

Going really thin is a challenge when cutting the forearms. I'm talking .015" or smaller.


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07-17-2018, 05:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by scdiveteam View Post
You gave me a chance? LOL. Am I suppose to feel special or blessed somehow?

Referring to 70,000 psi epoxy as bondo was the tip off for me revealing you as a hater in the first degree. Your question was not serious, only a means to an end to attack and make you feel better abou yourself. This is a pattern you seem to embrace. I am sorry you don't like what I do.

My advice to you is to focus on things that bring joy to your life. You can learn how to be happy and change your ways. Your self loathing can be modified. There are professionals you may seek out that can help you.

Making yourself feel good by attacking others shows your real weakness. Narcissism. JMO.

Over and out.

Ricky
Dear Ricky ghandi....your words of enlightenment are wasted.
You are special...very special indeed.



I don't care if you put 270,000 psi epoxy in those gaping crevices it is still going to be a weak link in your chain you knuckle brain.

All we're trying to do help and you just continue to push away.
You probably forgot all about the time just recently that you couldn't even put a joint pin in straight and came here begging for help. After repeated attempts to get you straightened out all you wanted to do was argue that your way was better.
No Ricky, your way of boring the hole 5 thou oversize and "massaging" the pin to the center of the hole while the glue is setting up is not the correct way of completing that simple exercise to get your pins in cue straight and on center you ballast brain.

Do us all a favor and find something else to do besides wasting wood in a futile attempt to call yourself a cue builder.

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Dave38
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07-18-2018, 12:31 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by scdiveteam View Post
I don't respond to questions replete with passive aggressive statements and negative innuendo.

.
First, a statement....
Remember, posting advice here that can and will be followed by others, and if false or incorrect info is given, it WILL cause people to lose wood, money, and possibly cause injury. It Behooves all of us that give advice to make sure all advice is from people that actually know what they are talking about. Some newer members may think I am out of line with the following, but, believe me, and the others that have had to deal with him,...the guy known as Rick, on here and other sites, has proved many times to not be the qualified builder/engineer he claims, and can become a very rude, and vulgar person when someone exposes him for what he is.

That being said, Ricky....
Point 1) If you don't respond to these types of questions...then why did you respond? I know why...you simply cannot help yourself....its the compulsion to sound smart, and look like you are superior, even though you are not either. At least you haven't used a bunch of large words yet that contradict each other....all in the same sentence.
Point 2) You stated: 'Referring to 70,000 psi epoxy as bondo was the tip off for me revealing you as a hater in the first degree"
Dave never said anything about 70,000 psi and Neither did you...Until you just pulled the number out of you azz. just for your post... In a vain attempt to make one of the most talented cuemakers of our time, to look bad and make you look smart. Now, how have you measured the PSI of the epoxy in those gaps?? What test equipment was used and under what circumstances? Was this the same epoxy that blew out those cues in a cargo hold of a plane after being fully cured? I believe an ACTUAL engineer (that provided certs and you didn't,I think you blamed a fire for eating your creds..) proved you wrong on that one ......LMAO....
those of us that have dealt with you here and at Jimbo's site know, who you are, and how you are, and how you operate. Most of the 'advice' you give is severely flawed on many levels. Some can even cause harm....remember the battery charger deal?
Go open your shop, and enjoy the time you have left, but please let the advice be given by the people that actually know what they are talking about....
Dave
  
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07-18-2018, 08:23 AM

To the original poster's question, I build my cues on a 30" core, but when it comes to points, I don't do them on that core. I bore the forearm, and glue the 15" dowel in. I then proceed to cut and glue the points. Then I re-bore the forearm and then mount it to the full size core. That is the simple story. I use dial indicators on both ends of the forearm to dial it in to run true before boring. I also bore the dia. of the drill about 1" deep on both ends to prevent blowing out or cracking the forearm when the gundrill comes out the other end. It is a pain to keep the points even, But it is the strongest way IMO, to do points on a core. The result will only be as good as the efforts to keep everything true as you go thru the steps. HTHs. Have included a couple pics..

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07-18-2018, 11:00 AM

Appreciating all the free advice.

Especially the "collegial debate" on good vs bad advice (practice).

FWIW as a woodworker i use about a C unit (5 gallons) of WEST per year for the past 35 yrs. Some years a lot less, some years more. I wondered about that "70K psi" note, lol. I supect you could fill WEST to attain that in compression, but that is meaningless in something like a cue, where flex and tensile strength as well as stiffness matter more. WEST has or will provide engineering data backed up by years of science and testing, when asked. If this is not clear, i agree that filling those voids with epoxy (any brand) does nothing to mitigate a weak point and stress riser in a poorly considered joint that is undercut to be way too weak for the application.

OTOH as a woodworker i am constantly flummoxed because i do it right, and people with little background who do it ("it" being any technical system of joinery etc.) all wrong sell more product and don't have the obvious failures they should. Sometimes the cosmos is not fair!

My question today (if it is not proprietary info)?

As a hobbyist, i've built only a few cues. Several full splice. Never built a cored cue. Dave - I like the description of the full dowel; it appeals to my sense of structure as a woodwhacker. I can also see arguments for or against that vs A joint. But sticking to full dowel, do you by any chance taper the dowel to vaguely mirror the OD Butt taper? Or step it? If not, what size do you turn the dowel/core? I'm going to sort of assume you drill/bore the outside butt component and then closely size the core to it? Either way, what is the approximate target size for the core?

Thanks!
smt
  
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07-18-2018, 11:34 AM

Rick, can I ask you how deep into the core those cuts run?



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07-18-2018, 03:53 PM

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Originally Posted by qbilder View Post
You have a few options that will allow you to keep your full core construction, but before getting into that is there a legitimate reason for not using an "A" joint?
The only legit reason I can think of is, he'd rather not deal with it .

I don't really wanna argue but, imo, two-piece cores make for better hit and balance.

And anyone who insists he's never had a one-piece core warp gives me some doubt. They really mean they turned down the outside after the 1-piece core moved.
It is the nature of the beast . Long thin maple dowel are liable to move . That's why the largest manufacturer in Asia uses pie-laminates. Black Boar only uses the top 12" as forearm core. The middle is handle size.
  
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07-18-2018, 06:18 PM

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Originally Posted by JoeyInCali View Post
I don't really wanna argue but, imo, two-piece cores make for better hit and balance.
That's been my experience. I never had horrible experiences with full length cores, but I only did a few before realizing I couldn't notice a difference in hit. It was neither here nor there. What I did notice on all of them was difficulty adjusting balance. Balance is a big one for me. Since it didn't benefit the hit and hindered my balancing, it was a no brainer for me to abandon the idea. That's not to say somebody else wouldn't find success with it. I don't discount the method. I just don't find it useful on my cues.


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07-18-2018, 07:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by qbilder View Post
What I did notice on all of them was difficulty adjusting balance. Balance is a big one for me. Since it didn't benefit the hit and hindered my balancing
And there you have it right there. Loading a cue butt on both ends to achieve the desired balance is not a good way to go about it...IMO.
Utilizing a joint connection between the forearm and the handle allows any desired weight added to be added as close to the natural balance point of completed said cue.
If properly executed this...IMO....is why you pick up a cue that will have an actual weight of say 19.7 or 8 and feel like it may weigh in the low 19's. It just feels natural no matter how much it weighs because you have hit the balance dead on the nose and not tried to force it in an unnatural way.
Cues have been built with the A joint construction method for a long time with little to no problems if you understand why certain unwanted things happen and know how to counter act the situation. Certainly nothing wrong with an A joint constructed cue if you know what you're doing.
  
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07-18-2018, 08:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarenbruggeCues View Post
And there you have it right there. Loading a cue butt on both ends to achieve the desired balance is not a good way to go about it...IMO.
Utilizing a joint connection between the forearm and the handle allows any desired weight added to be added as close to the natural balance point of completed said cue.
If properly executed this...IMO....is why you pick up a cue that will have an actual weight of say 19.7 or 8 and feel like it may weigh in the low 19's. It just feels natural no matter how much it weighs because you have hit the balance dead on the nose and not tried to force it in an unnatural way.
Cues have been built with the A joint construction method for a long time with little to no problems if you understand why certain unwanted things happen and know how to counter act the situation. Certainly nothing wrong with an A joint constructed cue if you know what you're doing.
What if you mix 70,000 PSI epoxy with carbide dust and fill the cavities ?
  
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