Feedback in grip hand

StrokeAnalyzer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That is indeed interesting. Care to elaborate? How did you test?

My testing was very limited to hitting a few balls and looking at the interesting data. Deeper analysis is up to you. FYI...I dont have any of those accelerometers made up now, so ordering one will require effort to order and make one.

Bob
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
I think full splice cues give the best feedback....ie the most pure transmission of vibration to the grip hand. All those typical joints and splices in a traditional cue with ring work above and below the handle cause reflections up and down the cue and dampen the feedback.

Bob

Ok you're losing me here :scratchhead: You state that your testing is limited only to hitting a few balls & noting the data. So is your opinion about full splice based on data or personal assumption? That line can be blurred if careful not to do so, causing misconception & false beliefs.

I'm intrigued by your testing, but you haven't really explained a whole lot about it. Is it video or audio or both? Does the cue have sensors attached to it? Is the cue supported mechanically or by human hands/grip?
 

StrokeAnalyzer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ok you're losing me here :scratchhead: You state that your testing is limited only to hitting a few balls & noting the data. So is your opinion about full splice based on data or personal assumption? That line can be blurred if careful not to do so, causing misconception & false beliefs.

I'm intrigued by your testing, but you haven't really explained a whole lot about it. Is it video or audio or both? Does the cue have sensors attached to it? Is the cue supported mechanically or by human hands/grip?

My opinion about full spliced cues is purely my opinion and based on sensory observations. However, if you consider a cue to be a transmission line...then any junction along the line will cause reflections and those reflections will effect the "feedback".

The time domain data is acquired by a 3 axis accelerometer attached to the butt end of the cue. The Z axis data(length of the cue) from the accelorometer is captured and analyzed. That data is in the time domain. An FFT (fast fourier transform) converts the time domain data into the frequency domain. Math magic :)

Bob
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
My opinion about full spliced cues is purely my opinion and based on sensory observations. However, if you consider a cue to be a transmission line...then any junction along the line will cause reflections and those reflections will effect the "feedback".

The time domain data is acquired by a 3 axis accelerometer attached to the butt end of the cue. The Z axis data(length of the cue) from the accelorometer is captured and analyzed. That data is in the time domain. An FFT (fast fourier transform) converts the time domain data into the frequency domain. Math magic :)

Bob
Oh boy......:D
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
My opinion about full spliced cues is purely my opinion and based on sensory observations. However, if you consider a cue to be a transmission line...then any junction along the line will cause reflections and those reflections will effect the "feedback".

The time domain data is acquired by a 3 axis accelerometer attached to the butt end of the cue. The Z axis data(length of the cue) from the accelorometer is captured and analyzed. That data is in the time domain. An FFT (fast fourier transform) converts the time domain data into the frequency domain. Math magic :)

Bob

I appreciate the explanation of how your test works. As for opinion, we can agree to disagree.
 

Kid Dynomite

Dennis (Michael) Wilson
Silver Member
Resonance is the key word. Every species of wood has a range of vibration frequencies and intensity it allows. It's not unlike materials ranging in conductivity, ranging from high conductivity to semi-conductive to insulating. Just like copper conducts electric better than rubber, certain woods resonate better than others. It begins with molecular makeup and is affected by everything from grain straightness to dimension. For instance, straight grain purpleheart conducts vibration more efficiently and at higher frequency than buckeye burl. That's a dramatic comparison but it paints the picture. The resonance(or lack there of) is what you feel in your grip. The purpleheart will have a sharp, rigid pop to it where the buckeye burl would feel like a dull thud at best. Somewhere in the middle is where most players prefer. Truth be known, most players probably aren't specifically aware of what it is going on, or really even care about the technicalities, but they recognize when the cue feels good vs bad. It's not a coincidence that when a cue plays well, it also feels good. The two are parallel, hand in hand.
http://video.mit.edu/watch/tuning-forks-resonance-a-beat-frequency-11447/

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiHOqMOJTH4

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBXceaUKTSc

these are some SERIOUS food for thought!!!

Also, notice how long the tuning forks SING and the key of G!!!

The transfer is IMPORTANT!


KD

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
 

Kid Dynomite

Dennis (Michael) Wilson
Silver Member
This example uses the same type and species of wood! Why?

Because of resonance is why they did not use ebony on one and tulipwood on the other!

So, for resonance purposes a maple shaft wood to wood joint and maple cored forearm and maple handle with sleeved on butt. Would give optimal resonance from tip to bumper!!!

The use of full splice inserts another species of wood and a different resonance altogether!

Kd



Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
 

StrokeAnalyzer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This example uses the same type and species of wood! Why?

Because of resonance is why they did not use ebony on one and tulipwood on the other!

So, for resonance purposes a maple shaft wood to wood joint and maple cored forearm and maple handle with sleeved on butt. Would give optimal resonance from tip to bumper!!!

The use of full splice inserts another species of wood and a different resonance altogether!

Kd



Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

I would add one more caveat....by the time you FEEL/HEAR the hit....the cue ball is long gone. So any feedback in the grip is purely psychological. There is nothing wrong with that, if it helps your confidence and improves playing ability.

Cheers
Bob
 

Superiorduper

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I would add one more caveat....by the time you FEEL/HEAR the hit....the cue ball is long gone. So any feedback in the grip is purely psychological. There is nothing wrong with that, if it helps your confidence and improves playing ability.

Cheers
Bob

Psychological, yes, but regardless of yours shot's results. Physically, the "feedback" is relative on how well or poorly the cue ball was struck imo.
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
any feedback in the grip is purely psychological.

That's an area where I strongly disagree. The vibrations that we perceive as feedback are mirror indicative of what transpired at the moment tip impacted cue ball. A miscue does not feel nor sound anything like a clean center ball contact. Those two points represent each end of the spectrum, and every other shot falls somewhere between. The sharper the contrast between each shot, the easier it is for the player to hone in on mistakes he/she may otherwise be unaware they are making. You hit the ball, feel the cue, visually observe the aftermath, and make adjustments accordingly. That's the point. It's not psychological at all. The more clearly your cue speaks to you, the easier the game becomes. Good feedback connects you to the game via senses other than sight alone. It's not unlike rumble strips on the edge of the road, allowing you to feel and hear when you are out of line.
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
http://video.mit.edu/watch/tuning-forks-resonance-a-beat-frequency-11447/

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiHOqMOJTH4

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBXceaUKTSc

these are some SERIOUS food for thought!!!

Also, notice how long the tuning forks SING and the key of G!!!

The transfer is IMPORTANT!


KD

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Those vids are precisely why I asked if the cues he was testing were held by human hands/grip, or by mechanical devise. The test results will be subject to varying levels of distortion if held by hand because there's no constant, uniform grip. A mechanical grip would be a static.
 

deraltefritz

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The haptic feedback in your grip hand has insignificant influence on the reaction of the cue ball you stroked a few millisecond ago. A pro could play with thick skiing gloves and still shoot the lights out.
The same probably holds true to how a cue sounds. Sure, cues differ in tip hardness/size/shape, shaft wood quality etc. and therefore have slight differences where you need to strike the cue ball to get a certain reaction.
But in the end, all that is required is for a player to get used it it. Know how it performs. Turn it into an extension of your shooting arm. And the more feedback (audible, visual, haptic) you get from a cue, the more sensations your brain can store in its memory bank to pull out when needed.
Whether one classifies that into the category "psychological" or something else is not really important imho.


Different question: how does hard rock maple compare to Brazilian rosewood in terms of vibration transfer. Has anyone ever made or played with a solid one piece maple cue without any splices? Will that be too light/heavy, or are there other concerns that make such a cue difficult to make/play with?
 
Last edited:

Kid Dynomite

Dennis (Michael) Wilson
Silver Member
The haptic feedback in your grip hand has insignificant influence on the reaction of the cue ball you stroked a few millisecond ago. A pro could play with thick skiing gloves and still shoot the lights out.
The same probably holds true to how a cue sounds. Sure, cues differ in tip hardness/size/shape, shaft wood quality etc. and therefore have slight differences where you need to strike the cue ball to get a certain reaction.
But in the end, all that is required is for a player to get used it it. Know how it performs. Turn it into an extension of your shooting arm. And the more feedback (audible, visual, haptic) you get from a cue, the more sensations your brain can store in its memory bank to pull out when needed.
Whether one classifies that into the category "psychological" or something else is not really important imho.


Different question: how does hard rock maple compare to Brazilian rosewood in terms of vibration transfer. Has anyone ever made or played with a solid one piece maple cue without any splices? Will that be too light/heavy, or are there other concerns that make such a cue difficult to make/play with?
Closest thing to them were the southwest pacifier cues made for you while you waited for your cue!

Tad plain janes were built like that. In fact, Tom wirth the one pocket author plays with such a cue.

Many cored cues are maple from tip to bumper! I own about 7 built that way!

Coring makes the outside look good and vibration act like a flute as it channels is trough the maple core to the maple handle and player hand.

Kd

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
Different question: how does hard rock maple compare to Brazilian rosewood in terms of vibration transfer. Has anyone ever made or played with a solid one piece maple cue without any splices? Will that be too light/heavy, or are there other concerns that make such a cue difficult to make/play with?

I have made solid cues from maple, bubinga, rosewood, bocote, shedua, purpleheart, etc. Each species has its own spectrum of qualities and each piece fits somewhere into its species' spectrum. The shaft will then have its own qualities. In short, maple is not uniform. One piece differs from the next, sometimes greatly. More important to me is the specific qualities a piece of wood has, than what species it is.
 
Top