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Red Shoes Qualifier - 07-25-2011, 06:07 AM

What a great event this turned out to be. From the moment we arrived at Red Shoes Billiards, http://redshoesbilliards.com/ until we finished loading the van for the drive home, we were given the red carpet treatment by John Lavin and his employees. Dennis Walsh was also a very gracious host attending to our needs. I think it is safe to say that without the effort of Dennis the live stream would not have happened. Dennis was also responsible for arranging George Fels and Freddy the Beard to do the commentary.

My deepest thanks go to these two fine gentleman for for making our work of live streaming this event a most pleasurable one. We look forward to doing more live streams from Red Shoes.

George Fels did an outstanding job with the commentary and was joined in the "booth" by Freddy the Beard, Lou Figueroa, Jeff Carter and Ron Shepard. (I hope I have that name right)

Many thanks to all the viewers who tuned in to watch and your many positive comments. Without an audience there would be no point in streaming!

There are many others to thank for there help in bring the live stream to you.

Poolstudents.net for their sponsorship. Be sure to check out this new website, it is about the good things in pool. http://www.poolstudents.net/index.php

Accu_Stats for their continued support of Mi_Billiards, thank you Jim and Pat. http://www.accu-stats.com/

Crown Cues for their continued support. http://www.crowncues.biz/

AZBilliards Where would we be without these forums to tell the world what is going on in pool?

Bob, aka cmbwsu, for his relentless promotion, via Facebook, AZBilliards and other sources.
UpstateAl for keeping AZB informed all day and into the night
Fast Lenny for his email blast informing all on his list of the event.
Our moderators, who's help and support is very much appreciated
Jim Fredericks, jfredwmdk
Gary, oldzilla
Bob, cmbswu
Curly, curlyscues
There are too many others to list here but your help is not forgotten.

edit
Also, thanks to all the players, their willingness to rack the balls on the head spot which made for a much better view for the camera.

Steve Elzinga
Mi_Billiards
Live2Ustreams.com

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07-25-2011, 06:24 AM

All the matches were archived at ustream and can be found here >>> http://www.ustream.tv/user/Mi_Billiards/videos
  
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Red Shoes Qualifier - 07-25-2011, 08:28 AM

Fantastic job, everyone! Hope to see you all in New Jersey for the World.
  
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07-25-2011, 10:00 AM

thank you so much for posting these!

i especially enjoyed Match 4, Tom Karabotsos vs Jeff Mohl, both for the playing and for the commentary, which was a great mix of colorful And erudite language, and contained a wealth of knowledge as well.


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07-25-2011, 01:34 PM

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All the matches were archived at ustream and can be found here >>> http://www.ustream.tv/user/Mi_Billiards/videos
I would like to once again thank you for the stream, and especially for archiving the matches.


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07-25-2011, 02:13 PM

Great video quality and great commentary by George, Freddy, Lou and Ron (I haven't heard Jeff yet). George deserves special credit - his commentary is like going to 14.1 school and he did seven matches in a row strictly for love of the game - that's probably about 12 hours straight without a real break.

George's commentary is even more valuable because the players, although excellent, are not Oliver Ortmann's, so there's more to comment on and question their choices. Great job, George!



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I'll take the heat, but I have to counter-comment
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I'll take the heat, but I have to counter-comment - 07-25-2011, 02:42 PM

I have to say something. I'm not the kind of guy who can bite his lip for any length of time if I hear or read something I feel is out of line, and I have an opportunity to speak my mind regarding it.

I want to "counter comment" if you will, on what George Fels said at about the 57 minute mark of the Andy Walker - Bob Cozzolino match. I won't be pulling any punches here either, because it really struck a nerve hearing it.

Anyone interested can certainly play that back, but in essence he said pool players in general are uninteresting, come from poverty, and have poor grammar among other comments. SPECIFICALLY pointing out Jim Rempe and Danny D's poor grammar.

Well let me say that there are two sides to every coin, Danny and Jim certainly don't fall at the far end of that spectrum in either direction, by any stretch of the imagination. I don't feel that comment was in good taste.

At the other end of the spectrum, far closer to its extreme, I feel your holier than thou commentary was dry, false, and cliched so much it bordered on annoying. Speaking of grammar issues you reminded me of someone yourself...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzAXb7qCCAo

So, you can slam me for my counter comment in defense of all mentioned and implied by George, but IMO it was out of line and uncalled for. Given the choice, I'd rather listen to 24hrs straight of either Jim's or Danny's commentary (grammar included) than suffer through 10 minutes of your cliched version.


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Guest commentator - 07-25-2011, 07:37 PM

I happened to get a photo of one of our guest commentators, Lou Figueroa and his lovely wife Gail who happened to join George Fels for a match.

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07-26-2011, 02:45 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3andstop View Post
I have to say something. I'm not the kind of guy who can bite his lip for any length of time if I hear or read something I feel is out of line, and I have an opportunity to speak my mind regarding it.

I want to "counter comment" if you will, on what George Fels said at about the 57 minute mark of the Andy Walker - Bob Cozzolino match. I won't be pulling any punches here either, because it really struck a nerve hearing it.

Anyone interested can certainly play that back, but in essence he said pool players in general are uninteresting, come from poverty, and have poor grammar among other comments. SPECIFICALLY pointing out Jim Rempe and Danny D's poor grammar.

Well let me say that there are two sides to every coin, Danny and Jim certainly don't fall at the far end of that spectrum in either direction, by any stretch of the imagination. I don't feel that comment was in good taste.

At the other end of the spectrum, far closer to its extreme, I feel your holier than thou commentary was dry, false, and cliched so much it bordered on annoying. Speaking of grammar issues you reminded me of someone yourself...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzAXb7qCCAo

So, you can slam me for my counter comment in defense of all mentioned and implied by George, but IMO it was out of line and uncalled for. Given the choice, I'd rather listen to 24hrs straight of either Jim's or Danny's commentary (grammar included) than suffer through 10 minutes of your cliched version.
I listened. You seem much more offended on Rempe's and Danny D's behalf than I think either of them would be. George criticized their grammar in a mild way, and said nothing else critical about them. He referred to Jim Rempe as "my friend", which I have no doubt he is, and to Danny D as "one of our best commentators". I suspect both would agree that their grammar isn't the best and would take it this criticism in the spirit in which it was given, which was friendly criticism to my ears.

Your criticism of George, on the other hand, is truly mean-spirited, as if it were your goal to hurt the man's feelings as much as possible. If I were George and had just done a 14 hour gig for free with the intention of helping straight pool players, that would be certainly be its effect on me.

I feel a person should stand behind his words on the forum, especially when they are critical - in this case highly critical - of another forum member. Perhaps you will state your name for us so that you stand behind yours, and so we know who you are. My name is in my signature.



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07-26-2011, 05:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3andstop View Post
I have to say something. I'm not the kind of guy who can bite his lip for any length of time if I hear or read something I feel is out of line, and I have an opportunity to speak my mind regarding it.

I want to "counter comment" if you will, on what George Fels said at about the 57 minute mark of the Andy Walker - Bob Cozzolino match. I won't be pulling any punches here either, because it really struck a nerve hearing it.

Anyone interested can certainly play that back, but in essence he said pool players in general are uninteresting, come from poverty, and have poor grammar among other comments. SPECIFICALLY pointing out Jim Rempe and Danny D's poor grammar.

Well let me say that there are two sides to every coin, Danny and Jim certainly don't fall at the far end of that spectrum in either direction, by any stretch of the imagination. I don't feel that comment was in good taste.

At the other end of the spectrum, far closer to its extreme, I feel your holier than thou commentary was dry, false, and cliched so much it bordered on annoying. Speaking of grammar issues you reminded me of someone yourself...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzAXb7qCCAo

So, you can slam me for my counter comment in defense of all mentioned and implied by George, but IMO it was out of line and uncalled for. Given the choice, I'd rather listen to 24hrs straight of either Jim's or Danny's commentary (grammar included) than suffer through 10 minutes of your cliched version.

Well, first off, if you listen to what was said it was Jeff Carter who raised, and kept with, the issue of pool players and their lack of verbal skills. And then there was a brief but pretty erudite discussion about professional pool players, their general demographics, and lack of success in gaining recognition.

The discussion was candid and insightful and George's comments were pretty benign -- but accurate and totally germane to the discussion they were having. So my take is that you are taking offense were there was none, and none was certainly intended.

Lou Figueroa
  
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07-26-2011, 07:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3andstop View Post
I have to say something. I'm not the kind of guy who can bite his lip for any length of time if I hear or read something I feel is out of line, and I have an opportunity to speak my mind regarding it.

I want to "counter comment" if you will, on what George Fels said at about the 57 minute mark of the Andy Walker - Bob Cozzolino match. I won't be pulling any punches here either, because it really struck a nerve hearing it.

Anyone interested can certainly play that back, but in essence he said pool players in general are uninteresting, come from poverty, and have poor grammar among other comments. SPECIFICALLY pointing out Jim Rempe and Danny D's poor grammar.

Well let me say that there are two sides to every coin, Danny and Jim certainly don't fall at the far end of that spectrum in either direction, by any stretch of the imagination. I don't feel that comment was in good taste.

At the other end of the spectrum, far closer to its extreme, I feel your holier than thou commentary was dry, false, and cliched so much it bordered on annoying. Speaking of grammar issues you reminded me of someone yourself...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzAXb7qCCAo

So, you can slam me for my counter comment in defense of all mentioned and implied by George, but IMO it was out of line and uncalled for. Given the choice, I'd rather listen to 24hrs straight of either Jim's or Danny's commentary (grammar included) than suffer through 10 minutes of your cliched version.
i listened to that part now and have to agree with Rich and Lou. The conversation was on what could help pool and was not mean spirited and the points made were germane and the conversation was from both commentators.

Thanks for all of the great support at the Red Shoes event. It is great to have the videos stored onlive with commentary. Good commentary adds to the video giving insights and understanding into the runs and is greatly appreciated. Thanks to all who commentated especially George along with Freddy, Jeff,Lou and Ron.
  
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07-26-2011, 09:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by lfigueroa View Post
Well, first off, if you listen to what was said it was Jeff Carter who raised, and kept with, the issue of pool players and their lack of verbal skills. And then there was a brief but pretty erudite discussion about professional pool players, their general demographics, and lack of success in gaining recognition.

The discussion was candid and insightful and George's comments were pretty benign -- but accurate and totally germane to the discussion they were having. So my take is that you are taking offense were there was none, and none was certainly intended.

Lou Figueroa
We will have to agree to disagree. Yes Jeff Carter did initiate the conversation. Police undercover officers place bait cars on the street also, but that doesn't make the thief any less guilty of the act of taking it. Jeff brought this up, and merely opened the door to George's inner feelings.

Here are some quotes ...

“Our best players are not particularly interesting when you take them away from the pool table.” Then he goes on naming names. “Steve Mizerak was not that interesting away from the pool table.” In who’s eyes? George’s? Who the hell made him the gauge to measure who is interesting and who isn’t? I think on the list of least interesting, he should place himself ahead of everyone.

“Most of their stories end up with the same dreary punch lines ... so then I ran out.” Dreary? Most players don’t end their stories with those words. This comment was a stereotype he placed on pool players formulated from his personal perspective. A perspective better left to himself IMO. I don't see how someone can call an entire group of people's stories dreary without displaying a holier than thou attitude.


“Because our players come out of poverty or in the case of American players .. Laziness.” This statement is just plain outright rude. He didn’t even try to mask that one with his overused clichés.

“Ask the average person to name a pool player and they will still name Minnesota fats, as phony and dead as he is.” As phony and dead as he is? This was benign and not meant to be mean spirited? Nice, and spoken about a man who has no way to defend it.

“We have champion pool players who's grammar is frightening. My friend Jim Rempe is one of the worst offenders, good guy, but I wonder how he got through high school with that grammar.” Frightening grammar? Wonder how he got through high school? This is benign and not mean spirited? He called Rempe his friend. If I had friends like that ... well, you know the rest of the sentence.

“Even one of our best commentators, Dan Deliberto needs to be weaned from “ain’t” and “he should have went”. He makes himself clear but when you represent the game you have to walk a little bit taller. A high school graduate who should know better.” Weaned? That's an interesting choice of words. Walk a bit taller? Benign statements that are not mean spirited? Really? .......Whatever …..Whatever.....

BTW, this is absolutely no reflection of the folks who put this together and did an outstanding job of it. To imply that it is by anyone posting in this thread is totally incorrect.

But that doesn't mean that their great work is a cover for George's statements and it doesn't mean I won't target and comment them separately from the otherwise fine work of presenting this stream.


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07-26-2011, 11:58 AM

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Originally Posted by 3andstop View Post
We will have to agree to disagree. Yes Jeff Carter did initiate the conversation. Police undercover officers place bait cars on the street also, but that doesn't make the thief any less guilty of the act of taking it. Jeff brought this up, and merely opened the door to George's inner feelings.

Here are some quotes ...

“Our best players are not particularly interesting when you take them away from the pool table.” Then he goes on naming names. “Steve Mizerak was not that interesting away from the pool table.” In who’s eyes? George’s? Who the hell made him the gauge to measure who is interesting and who isn’t? I think on the list of least interesting, he should place himself ahead of everyone.

“Most of their stories end up with the same dreary punch lines ... so then I ran out.” Dreary? Most players don’t end their stories with those words. This comment was a stereotype he placed on pool players formulated from his personal perspective. A perspective better left to himself IMO. I don't see how someone can call an entire group of people's stories dreary without displaying a holier than thou attitude.


“Because our players come out of poverty or in the case of American players .. Laziness.” This statement is just plain outright rude. He didn’t even try to mask that one with his overused clichés.

“Ask the average person to name a pool player and they will still name Minnesota fats, as phony and dead as he is.” As phony and dead as he is? This was benign and not meant to be mean spirited? Nice, and spoken about a man who has no way to defend it.

“We have champion pool players who's grammar is frightening. My friend Jim Rempe is one of the worst offenders, good guy, but I wonder how he got through high school with that grammar.” Frightening grammar? Wonder how he got through high school? This is benign and not mean spirited? He called Rempe his friend. If I had friends like that ... well, you know the rest of the sentence.

“Even one of our best commentators, Dan Deliberto needs to be weaned from “ain’t” and “he should have went”. He makes himself clear but when you represent the game you have to walk a little bit taller. A high school graduate who should know better.” Weaned? That's an interesting choice of words. Walk a bit taller? Benign statements that are not mean spirited? Really? .......Whatever …..Whatever.....

BTW, this is absolutely no reflection of the folks who put this together and did an outstanding job of it. To imply that it is by anyone posting in this thread is totally incorrect.

But that doesn't mean that their great work is a cover for George's statements and it doesn't mean I won't target and comment them separately from the otherwise fine work of presenting this stream.
I thought we did a good job bringing a qualifier to Chicago, getting a live stream, and getting commentary by one who knows the game fairly well.

Little did I know that some would focus on perceived slights to pool players in general and some of our pool playing heroes in particular. Foolish me. I thought that people would appreciate what we brought to them. Apparently, it turned out to be a place where someone could pick at someone who has given his life to pool.

Fourteen hours of unpaid commentary without a break, and you criticize George for his candid response to the question of why the pool industry does not get good sponsorship. It really makes me want to go the extra mile to put things together for the 14.1 community. Maybe your criticism should have been in the non pool related area.

Anyway, I do not wish to discuss your opinion of George's opinions on non 14.1 matters anymore so there is really no need for you to reply. Thanks for watching and I hope you enjoyed some of the games. While the Midwest version of 14.1 might not be up to your East Coast version, we do what we can. What to you might be obvious, to some viewers, might be helpful to them in developing their own games.

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07-26-2011, 12:03 PM

Well, I’d just like to say thanks to John Lavin for holding the tournament, Dennis Walsh for organizing and sponsoring the stream, and the Live2Ustreams.com guys Steve and Curly. It was a tremendous effort and all youze guys should be proud.

I think special thanks should go to George “Iron man” Fels who commentated the entire tournament from start to finish. If you have ever sat in front of a microphone and tried to stay coherent and entertaining for any amount of time, you have some idea of what he accomplished. (Try watching all the matches back-to-back and imagine what it would be like to be generating intelligent commentary for all that time.) Along these lines, I have to confess that sitting next to George and doing commentary was pretty cool for me. If you’re like me, you turn to your copy of BD each month and immediately turn to his back page and read his column first. I’ve been reading George’s work for probably at least 30 years, so it was a great thrill to work with him for that one match.

On another personal note, I was reminded this event that jumping into a pool tournament, or any organized competition, is not without peril (or reward). It is not easy, it might not be cheap, and it takes time, effort, and courage. Nowadays with the advent of streaming, PPV or otherwise, there is the added peril of having your success or failure broadcast to the world and archived for perpetuity :-)

I'm not saying everyone should sign up for the next World Qualifier (though there are some of you that should). I'm saying there are tournaments all over the place that, at some level or another, will let you experience what I did --- both the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. More significantly, it will give you a great way to learn many different but related things. If you don't compete in a tournament now and again, and test yourself and your game, you're cheating yourself.

For me, the event went as expected. Gail and I have been traveling almost nonstop this last month, so my prep time for this event was marginal at best. Still, it was a learning experience and for that I am grateful. Watch out next year.

Lou Figueroa
  
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07-26-2011, 12:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3andstop View Post
We will have to agree to disagree. Yes Jeff Carter did initiate the conversation. Police undercover officers place bait cars on the street also, but that doesn't make the thief any less guilty of the act of taking it. Jeff brought this up, and merely opened the door to George's inner feelings.

Here are some quotes ...

“Our best players are not particularly interesting when you take them away from the pool table.” Then he goes on naming names. “Steve Mizerak was not that interesting away from the pool table.” In who’s eyes? George’s? Who the hell made him the gauge to measure who is interesting and who isn’t? I think on the list of least interesting, he should place himself ahead of everyone.

“Most of their stories end up with the same dreary punch lines ... so then I ran out.” Dreary? Most players don’t end their stories with those words. This comment was a stereotype he placed on pool players formulated from his personal perspective. A perspective better left to himself IMO. I don't see how someone can call an entire group of people's stories dreary without displaying a holier than thou attitude.


“Because our players come out of poverty or in the case of American players .. Laziness.” This statement is just plain outright rude. He didn’t even try to mask that one with his overused clichés.

“Ask the average person to name a pool player and they will still name Minnesota fats, as phony and dead as he is.” As phony and dead as he is? This was benign and not meant to be mean spirited? Nice, and spoken about a man who has no way to defend it.

“We have champion pool players who's grammar is frightening. My friend Jim Rempe is one of the worst offenders, good guy, but I wonder how he got through high school with that grammar.” Frightening grammar? Wonder how he got through high school? This is benign and not mean spirited? He called Rempe his friend. If I had friends like that ... well, you know the rest of the sentence.

“Even one of our best commentators, Dan Deliberto needs to be weaned from “ain’t” and “he should have went”. He makes himself clear but when you represent the game you have to walk a little bit taller. A high school graduate who should know better.” Weaned? That's an interesting choice of words. Walk a bit taller? Benign statements that are not mean spirited? Really? .......Whatever …..Whatever.....

BTW, this is absolutely no reflection of the folks who put this together and did an outstanding job of it. To imply that it is by anyone posting in this thread is totally incorrect.

But that doesn't mean that their great work is a cover for George's statements and it doesn't mean I won't target and comment them separately from the otherwise fine work of presenting this stream.

I really don't get where you're coming from on this, so I will just post this last response and let it go.

Commentary is all about providing your personal opinion. You’re in front of a mike and on the spot to give your opinion about the tournament; the match at hand; the players; the level of play; shot selection; strategy; form; and the game at large. If you haven’t experienced it -- and personally I’ve only been behind a pool tournament mike twice -- you should give it a go. You might find it illuminating :-) But my point is that opinions are what make for interesting sports commentary.

Personally, having traveled to scores of pro tournaments for the last dozen or so years I can tell you that pro pool players -- God love them -- by and large do have a tendency to come from the same bolt of cloth: generally speaking they do come from relative poverty; some, but few, are college graduates; and none of them are exactly members of the Royal Family riding polo ponies, or lounging on their personal yacht, in their non-pool playing hours. And I mean really: every single one of us would have to admit that if you poll your average American they *are* going to name Fats and Jeanette Lee. That is fact, as is how much of a huckster Fats was, RIP.

Lastly, I can understand that you might not care for George’s commentary -- everybody has different likes and dislikes in that category. (There’s a guy that regularly does commentary for Accu-Stats that absolutely and immediately puts me to sleep -- smart guy, but something about his commentary, voice and delivery is like anesthesia for me and I don’t buy any tapes anymore that have his name on them.) But whether you like it or not, George is a very smart, well-spoken (and written) cookie. Certainly he is one of the game’s elder statesmen as far as most of us are concerned. And while you’re entitled to your opinion, when it comes to the big picture as it pertains to the world of pool, I’m going with George’s opinion.

It’s not a question of “holier than thou.” Having spent time with the man, I can tell you that there is probably not a “holier than anybody’s” bone in his entire body. But, he does call them like he sees them and for that we should all be grateful.

Lou Figueroa

Last edited by lfigueroa; 07-26-2011 at 12:28 PM.
  
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