But do you wish you had?
It's quite a project.Our Bar Rules and Playing System
- Thread starter Push&Pool
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It's quite a project.
But do you wish you had?
I'm pretty sure I don't
If I ever decide to write a pool guide, I'll be using comprehensible terms for starters, and I'll have the link posted in my signature.But now seriously, what's the big deal about that booklet anyway? The only thing I know is that it was allegedly posted by some user who got banned. Is it some sort of inside joke among certain members or something?
That is some set of house rules, right there.
All I normally ask; is are we calling shots, and does the winner break?
I also prefer ball in hand for all fouls.
All I normally ask; is are we calling shots, and does the winner break?
I also prefer ball in hand for all fouls.
I'm pretty sure I don't
But now seriously, what's the big deal about that booklet anyway? The only thing I know is that it was allegedly posted by some user who got banned. Is it some sort of inside joke among certain members or something?
Pretty sure you wrote that thing. I can't prove it, but the writing style, the timing of Your account appearing and the spaced out bar rules and "strategies" (can't emphasize the ""'s enough) etc. leads me to believe that it was you. I don't know why you won't take credit? It's a trolling masterpiece. In all my years online I've never seen anyone go to so much trouble just to troll People. I'm not mad about it or anything, I actually think it's pretty funny. Even if it wasn't you who wrote it, you sure should Endeavour to find out who the Author is. You guys have almost everything in common as far as views on strategy, techniques, rules etc...You should open a bar together and make a League.
And yes, that booklet is a joke, to anyone who ever picked up a cue. Everything about it from the whacked out rules to the bs terminology culminates in the perfect storm of annoying nonsense. It's brilliant. By some definitions it would be classified as art, just from it's ability to elicit emotions in the viewer. The first time I read a few pages I was steaming mad, the second time I laughed so much my stomach actually hurt! It's like a really, really bad movie. At first you're dissappointed and angry, then when you realize it's shit you just laugh at how bad it is, and it just gets funnier and funnier. Then you realize that it's a Andy Kaufmanesque prank and it gets funnier still. It's like some made up character like Tony Clifton became a pool player and wrote a book.
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...if Andy Kaufman's pranks were uninteresting and unfunny. We're giving him a little reacharound just by talking about him.
pj
chgo
On the contrary. Can you imagine paying through the nose for instruction. The instructor shows up with cameras on tripods, notebooks and a Satchel full of books he wrote. He watches you play for a while, taking notes all the while looking stern and analytical. Then he breaks the silence by saying these Words: "Having analysed Your game I have made the following recommendations and observations. First: When in doubt use full Power. Also, try not potting the white, especially when doing so will benefit Your opponent. That will be 1000 dollars, please".
Those pieces of advice are from the "book". There are probably 20 more that are equally bad or worse.
Also, since we are on the receiving end of this, shouldn't we be the ones getting the reacharound? Not an expert on that kind of thing, but it does seem appropriate.
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I'm sure it's the same person also, the other one got banned, then this account popped in right after and the the first or one of the first things that they did was link that document he is pretending to not have seen. With the exact same writing style as the banned user.
It all adds up to people not knowing the rules, making up the rules as they go instead of just taking 10 minutes to see what the rules already are. Like I said in my other post, it all just looks like what would happen if some long lost tribe from the Amazon was going to play baseball after seeing a single game without any sound and what rules they would make up based on just what they saw happening.
The issue with these "rules" is that they are not really rules since every other place and person that does not know how to play has their own set of "rules". Some half drunk college kids that heard something from his uncle he can't even remember fully tries "teaching" his friends the rules, and the circle of misinformation goes on. Do we want rules of the game taught by people who don't even know what chalk is for? With using world rules, or even some common known APA rule you can go anywhere and know what the heck is happening. Why is there a need for 40 different rule versions that complicate the rules more than anything? World rules is enough for the good players and the pros, yet some players that would lose to a C player are qualified to make up their own rules and think it's better? I don't think so. You need some experience and learning and expertise in a subject before trying to do something with it. I don't go around telling surgeons they are doing a stitch wrong, flat earthers have no business telling astronomers how the world and universe looks like, and people that can't play should not be trying to make up rules based on passed down word of mouth crap.
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That is now normal bar "rules" are. When playing with people that don't know how to play or the rules, seems that a foul is an advantage to the person that fouls not to the other player LOL I try to point this out to people sometimes but they tend to pull out the "oh this other way is too easy for us" retort.
In "real" behind the line rules if your last ball is behind the line, it gets spotted and you get ball in hand behind the line to shoot at it.
Punishing a player for a foul someone else committed is like saying "well robbing a bank is bad, but in some situations it helps get the robber money so it's OK then".
There are some situations when a foul is played on purpose, say in 14.1 when you play a soft hit to not move any balls, but then you lose a point and your turn.
A foul where the only result is that the incoming player has a penalty with no benefit is not a foul, it's just a stupid rule to put it bluntly. You can foul in 9 ball and tie up a ball, but result is ball in hand for the opponent. You can foul in any game really, but there is always a side affect that is good for the other player. If you foul and then the other player has to kick at a ball, and if it's the 8 the possibly lose, that is stupidity.
As pretty much every person said, there are reasons the rules are what they are, because they work, and work well, and they work for all skill levels and are fair. Made up rules are rarely fair and don't often punish doing bad things. A foul is bad, bad things should happen to you if you foul. You don't hit a rail, foul, ball in hand to punish you. You don't hit the correct ball or scratch in a pocket, foul, ball in hand for the other player, you get punished for the foul. Taking away those things is like making a law but then removing any way to enforce it or punish those that break it. Bar rules are OK among those that don't know how to play or know the rules but they all just make it harder for any good players to play with them since we have no idea what rules they are using without asking each turn what is OK to do and what happens if you do it.
I have a great example of "bar rules", my wife was playing the computer game Command and Conquer, she kept losing and was telling me she kept running out of resources to build. I asked her, why don't you use those harvesters to gather the material you need? She said "those are harvesters? I was using them to run over the soldiers to mush them" LOL That is what happens when you kinda sorta know the rules, but not really. Bar players are mushing small soldiers with harvesters, people that know the rules would tell them to use them the correct way the game intended to enable the game to be player properly.
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Alright, here we go.
That's the exact reason I had nothing to do with that book. It's basically trolling. I'm not on this forum to troll. Believe it or not, I actually like this community, despite all these attacks from certain individuals for years, and I do love pool. So I read, write and participate. I describe my own experiences and way of playing and learn about everyone else's. I'm not here to make people mad, or give birth to bad jokes. Also, the rules in that book are somewhat similar to ours but different, though the person may be from the same general region of Europe. But that's where similarities end. I don't recognize shooting techniques like "pulse shot", "swing shot" etc. You either shoot at low or high speed, there's not so much variation. I can see where the reader was getting at with the "spear shot", but I would never call shooting with an elevated cue that way.
The names of the table parts and equipment are plain weird. Strategies and styles of play are also described way too isolated from each other. When I've taught newcomers pool (in real life), I've emphasized the importance of having a complete skillset, in order to adapt and overcome particular weaknesses. For example, my position play is not all that great, so I switch up between high-percentage shots, straightforward defense and high powered shots to win my games. If I went "all out offense" on my opponents I would get destroyed a lot more. Finally, when that book touches on strategies, it also separates them into some sort of disruption, pocketing, offensive and defensive safeties etc. I see a single shot in pool having the potential to do a few of those things at once. So no, I wouldn't be writing strategies and a guide in general, like that.
If I've ever linked that document, it was after I was accused of having written it. I didn't know it existed before that.
And regarding the "made up" rules, I've already stated that the rules we use here have passed the test of time and are liked by many players who play pool quite seriously, not your average drunk guys who pick up a cue once a month. Actually, in the bar I mentioned in the OP those are a minority. Yes, it's a bar, not a pool hall, but it still attracts good players from the whole city and beyond. And they come there primarily for pool, played by the aforementioned rules.
The thing is, these rules are the middle ground here when players from different areas meet. Not world rules. Yes, a specific rule or a few minor ones can vary from one area to another, but the core remains the same, and it's therefore quite easy for players to come to an understanding regarding the rules and play the game without arguing or other problems of the sort.
First off, I LOLed at the image of harvesters mushing soldiers :grin: But the thing with these specific bar rules is that they indeed work well. If you want a gaming reference, think of it as a complete modded overhaul of the original game. It may have little in common with its roots, but it's a functioning game on its own. Good players still win over bad ones, but there's more to being good or bad than in the world standardized 8ball. I'd be a much worse player in the US for example. My lack of proper position play makes would get me annihilated. But here, I can use other skills and strategies, some of which are unavailable in the standardized versions, to win over players twice as accurate, in case they leave themselves open to those exact strategies.
That's the exact reason I had nothing to do with that book. It's basically trolling. I'm not on this forum to troll. Believe it or not, I actually like this community, despite all these attacks from certain individuals for years, and I do love pool. So I read, write and participate. I describe my own experiences and way of playing and learn about everyone else's. I'm not here to make people mad, or give birth to bad jokes. Also, the rules in that book are somewhat similar to ours but different, though the person may be from the same general region of Europe. But that's where similarities end. I don't recognize shooting techniques like "pulse shot", "swing shot" etc. You either shoot at low or high speed, there's not so much variation. I can see where the reader was getting at with the "spear shot", but I would never call shooting with an elevated cue that way.
The names of the table parts and equipment are plain weird. Strategies and styles of play are also described way too isolated from each other. When I've taught newcomers pool (in real life), I've emphasized the importance of having a complete skillset, in order to adapt and overcome particular weaknesses. For example, my position play is not all that great, so I switch up between high-percentage shots, straightforward defense and high powered shots to win my games. If I went "all out offense" on my opponents I would get destroyed a lot more. Finally, when that book touches on strategies, it also separates them into some sort of disruption, pocketing, offensive and defensive safeties etc. I see a single shot in pool having the potential to do a few of those things at once. So no, I wouldn't be writing strategies and a guide in general, like that.
If I've ever linked that document, it was after I was accused of having written it. I didn't know it existed before that.
And regarding the "made up" rules, I've already stated that the rules we use here have passed the test of time and are liked by many players who play pool quite seriously, not your average drunk guys who pick up a cue once a month. Actually, in the bar I mentioned in the OP those are a minority. Yes, it's a bar, not a pool hall, but it still attracts good players from the whole city and beyond. And they come there primarily for pool, played by the aforementioned rules.
The thing is, these rules are the middle ground here when players from different areas meet. Not world rules. Yes, a specific rule or a few minor ones can vary from one area to another, but the core remains the same, and it's therefore quite easy for players to come to an understanding regarding the rules and play the game without arguing or other problems of the sort.
First off, I LOLed at the image of harvesters mushing soldiers :grin: But the thing with these specific bar rules is that they indeed work well. If you want a gaming reference, think of it as a complete modded overhaul of the original game. It may have little in common with its roots, but it's a functioning game on its own. Good players still win over bad ones, but there's more to being good or bad than in the world standardized 8ball. I'd be a much worse player in the US for example. My lack of proper position play makes would get me annihilated. But here, I can use other skills and strategies, some of which are unavailable in the standardized versions, to win over players twice as accurate, in case they leave themselves open to those exact strategies.
None of this is any good, the core of the game where there are balls on the table is useless to go on, and using made up rules to get an advantage is exactly why good players make fun of those that make up their own rules instead of learning to play. Bar and even league rules are horrible to grow the game, it's fine for drunks to wase time, but as far as getting new players actually playing properly and supporting the pro game, it's useless. Saying I can't play so I make up rules so better players are more at my level is ludicrous. There are many ways of handicapping the standard rules to make games even, you can play where your fouls don't count or they don't get ball in hand for example if the players agree, but you sure as hell should never use those rules as a standard base.
As you can see by the 99% negative reaction to your "rules", no amount of rationalizing will make anyone agree with bar rules as being any better than just standard rules used in tournaments.
My local league teaches 8 year olds how to play properly, you are basically saying that players in bars can't learn a the level of an 8 year old, or simply chose to be ignorant and stubborn on purpose even with tons of clear example of they the rules are bad. People like that I put in the same category as flat earthers and religion, they chose to be ignorant on purpose and have closed minds where any example shown is dismissed without actual reason and logic.
As you can see by the 99% negative reaction to your "rules", no amount of rationalizing will make anyone agree with bar rules as being any better than just standard rules used in tournaments.
My local league teaches 8 year olds how to play properly, you are basically saying that players in bars can't learn a the level of an 8 year old, or simply chose to be ignorant and stubborn on purpose even with tons of clear example of they the rules are bad. People like that I put in the same category as flat earthers and religion, they chose to be ignorant on purpose and have closed minds where any example shown is dismissed without actual reason and logic.
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I never stated they were better, nor do I expect anyone to come up with such a conclusion after reading through this thread. They are so different that you could consider "our" 8ball an entirely separate game of pool. This discussion was never about proving that one is better than the other. I merely wanted to share what kind of pool we have here, and anyone is free to choose what kind of games they like to play. For me it's 8ball using these bar rules. For someone else it's one pocket. For you it might be something else entirely.
It's a Bar! They don't have gospel books or customers interested in reading.
Bar rules are so crazy I'm slowly making my own rules at barboxrules.com
I read through some of that manual. It absolutely is a work of art as mentioned. Mad time and effort in a hilarious troll. On a mushroom cultivation forum you run into some funny things. “Grow kits” being comparable to “bar rules” when it comes to getting the serious enthusiast fired up in righteous wrath. I’ve seen a few people make elaborate threads about grow kits but nothing so extensive as that “rules” book. Good job p and p or whoevs
I looked at your site, but it's incomplete as of now. Will you be writing about US bar rules or about variations from other parts of the world as well?
Not sure why everybody is bustin the OP's chops over their local rules. He said it is fun and quarters are lined up for other wanting to play. As long as you learn their rules, no problem.
I used to play in many local bars years ago and they were willing to bet $2, $5 or $10 a game. I would play whatever rules they wanted to play and usually walk out with $40/$50 dollars. In the 80's that was decent money.
Basically, you have to make all your suit and then pocket the 8 in last pocket. Ignore all that other mumbo jumbo. They are playing last pocket 8ball.
Don't scratch and you don't contend with that Q ball on the spot.
Don't hit the 8 ball first unless it's your object ball....seems simple to me.
It's pool and the better player wins. I didn't see any mention of a handicap system.
I used to play in many local bars years ago and they were willing to bet $2, $5 or $10 a game. I would play whatever rules they wanted to play and usually walk out with $40/$50 dollars. In the 80's that was decent money.
Basically, you have to make all your suit and then pocket the 8 in last pocket. Ignore all that other mumbo jumbo. They are playing last pocket 8ball.
Don't scratch and you don't contend with that Q ball on the spot.
Don't hit the 8 ball first unless it's your object ball....seems simple to me.
It's pool and the better player wins. I didn't see any mention of a handicap system.
Not sure why everybody is bustin the OP's chops over their local rules. He said it is fun and quarters are lined up for other wanting to play. As long as you learn their rules, no problem.
I used to play in many local bars years ago and they were willing to bet $2, $5 or $10 a game. I would play whatever rules they wanted to play and usually walk out with $40/$50 dollars. In the 80's that was decent money.
Basically, you have to make all your suit and then pocket the 8 in last pocket. Ignore all that other mumbo jumbo. They are playing last pocket 8ball.
Don't scratch and you don't contend with that Q ball on the spot.
Don't hit the 8 ball first unless it's your object ball....seems simple to me.
It's pool and the better player wins. I didn't see any mention of a handicap system.
The problem isn't that a bunch of locals can't play a cordial game of pool. The problem is they go to another bar and try to force those rules on others and then arguments ensue. Thats because they were never taught the correct rules. And sure as hell don't respect the game.
The game wasn't invented by a bunch of bar flies (no offense to bar flies, I am one) and golf wasn't invented by putt-putter. I don't play golf by the official rules, but I at least try to learn them the best I can and respect from where they came.
Don't go into a chefs kitchen and tell him how to cook. Thats my opinion.
Hahahaha....I have a sneaky suspicion that these rules are totally made up BS, proffered here to arouse a silly debate.
On the slim chance that they are not, all I can say is that if I owned a bar with a coin-op pool table and ever caught someone playing by these rules on a busy night, I would 86 that person. No more pool for you.
There you have it. Feel free to state your opinion about playing 8ball using these rules, your perception of the pros and cons of the game etc. Also, give it a try yourself if you're interested and post your experiences here. It was a pleasure giving you a preview of the game and environment in which I regularly play
I like how the OP asked for opinions on the pros as well as the cons.
The first Con that came to mind are losing on the break if you make the eight and another ball. This is not as bad as the bar rule that if you scratch on the break regardless of any balls being pocketed, it's an instant loss that I've seen played by bangers. Both rules would strongly encourage soft breaking to avoid the risk of losing the table to a weaker player and would make the wait times terrible. (I can understand why another poster told the story of the "No last pocket eight ball. I've always thought it was rude to play bank the eight or last pocket when everyone else waiting in line plays the fast way)
I've always said you should never have rules that could easily start arguments and I use that as the reason why you shouldn't have to call every rail and every ball that the OB has to go off, then I set up a shot and explain that if the shot is hit very hard you could never see all the different ricochets of every ball and rail)
But in the OP's rules,
"They are only allowed to shoot forward, in the direction towards the foot rail, in a way that their cue doesn't pass over either corner pocket. That pretty much means they can only shoot at balls positioned between right and left side pocket and the head spot, and at anything below that"
there would need to be a button that would turn on the corner pocket lasers that would act like bowling lasers that buzz if set off to make sure your cue stick doesn't go past the allotted area. Without these lasers that you turn on after a scratch, there would be arguments.
Assuming you don't have lasers, what exact part of the corner pocket can you shoot inside of without breaking your "rule"
I don't like to be long-winded so I'll stop with just those two cons for now. I gave some examples of rules that are not the OPs but that was to help show some examples of how we have arrived at as good a set of rules in the US as you can get to avoid arguements.
Oh one last question, In your bar does everyone agree that it's not "dirty pool" to nudge the cue ball one inch behind your ball for a brutal snooker without getting a rail since it's within your rule set?