Whats going on with this shot?

3kushn

3kushn

AzB Silver Member
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I hope I can describe this well enough.

I'm on a 3Cushion table. Ball 2 is big in the corner. Ball 1 is say 3/4 diamond up the long rail and 1/2 diamond along the short. CB is in a position that ball 1 can't be cut thin enough for the natural LSL. Its closer to the short or say, behind ball 1 and just a few inches further along the short.

If I hit ball 1 thin as if I wanted to take the tangent to the opposite short rail with nearly max draw and spin to hit cushion 1 around 1/2 diamond on the short rail, it comes longer than if I simply draw it to the same place.

To me its counter intuitive. Cuing with no spin, and as the ball curves in to the corner it appears as if it rolls over on a different axis and acquires similar spin as if I cued it that way but comes shorter.
 
Bob Jewett

Bob Jewett

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3kushn said:
I hope I can describe this well enough.
...
Click to expand...
Well, no. You need to be more specific in your description. How about starting like this: Imagine a carom table in landscape mode. That means that the long rails are horizontal and the short rails are vertical. The first object ball is near the upper left corner exactly two balls from the short rail and three balls from the long rail. The second object ball....

Using a description like that, I could hope to place balls on a real table within a millimeter of where you describe.

It would be better if you could use a diagram. Is there any way you could scan a hand drawing?
 
3kushn

3kushn

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Try This, CB is the Red Spotted

Shot Diagram.jpg
 
Bob Jewett

Bob Jewett

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3kushn said:
Try This, CB is the Red Spotted ...
Click to expand...
In your description, it sounds like you are playing off the yellow ball to hit the right end cushion about half a diamond from the lower right corner. Is that right? Also, you find that plain draw tends to come shorter to the red ball than playing to the same spot on the first cushion with lots of right english and draw. Is that the puzzling part?
 
R

RWOJO

AzB Silver Member
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Confusion

I don't know if i understand it completely but are the 2 things that are confusing you this:

1) Red/White cue ball thin off the yellow ball with maximum draw = cue ball draws down into the far right corner and then hits farther (left) on the bottom rail than you anticipate?

2) red/white cue ball thin off the yellow ball with slight draw = cue ball draws down into the far right corner (close to the same spot as previous shot) but digs more in the corner (hits further right on the long rail) and therefore comes closer to hitting the red?



If I'm not correct about above then ignore what I'm going to say next.... The maximum draw seems like it would do the counter-intuitive thing for a reason. Think of it as the Red/White cue ball is spinning with back spin which is in the direction of Right short rail to the left short rail. So this action will not cause the cue ball to deviate much from the tangent line and even more so it would give a higher rebound off the first short rail (causing it to hit further left on the long rail and miss the red by a mile).

Again if i have anything wrong so far then this wont help... I would hit the yellow ball slightly fuller so that the tangent line is 1/2 diamond from the lower right corner - then it should take the quick 2 rails, come back up behind the red for 1 or 2 more rails and the hit. If it still comes a touch long and misses the Red then a slight amount of right english might be needed.
 
R

RWOJO

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Spin

Side note: the right english applied to the shot will not change where the tangent line is going to hit on the short rail, but rather its effect will be spinning off the rail to change that angle in the corner.

When you have shots that are really confusing try to set it up with Binder Reinforcements (doughnut stickers) then repeat it over and over with only changing 1 variable at a time. Try the shot with stop shot. Then try with slight draw. Then try the shot with maximum draw. Then try the 3 shots each with slight right english and then try them with more right english.

This way you narrow down what each variable has on the the outcome of the shot.
 
3kushn

3kushn

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Bob Jewett said:
In your description, it sounds like you are playing off the yellow ball to hit the right end cushion about half a diamond from the lower right corner. Is that right? Also, you find that plain draw tends to come shorter to the red ball than playing to the same spot on the first cushion with lots of right english and draw. Is that the puzzling part?
Click to expand...

Correct on both points.

Why is it coming shorter with just draw?

RWOJO

I couldn't follow what you're getting at. I'll read it again.

Whether the shot selection is correct or not is irrelevant. Just trying to learn what's going on with the 2 types of spin. The path the CB is taking (tried to draw it, failed) is similar to what you said, approx. 1/2 from the long then at about a 1.5-2 diamonds downstream it curves to the short bottom corner then long then short. Like Bob says "of course it goes longer if you cue with low right in this case than with straight draw even though the line and first rail are the same. WHY? Does the curve start later with just draw or what.
 
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R

RWOJO

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3kushn said:
Correct on both points.

Why is it coming shorter with just draw?
Click to expand...

When you say shorter. Are you coming up too low on the left short rail and missing the Red ball? or coming on the top long rail and missing the red?
 
3kushn

3kushn

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RWOJO said:
When you say shorter. Are you coming up too low on the left short rail and missing the Red ball? or coming on the top long rail and missing the red?
Click to expand...

OK here's an attempt with lines and arrows ala Arlo Guthrie

Shot Diagram.jpg
 
R

RWOJO

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whats going on

I think I know. As long as you're hitting about the same place on the short rail (first rail) the right English widens the next angle to hit slightly deeper right on the long rail and then the right English widens the next angle even more. See diagram and red line


Sooo, without the right English it takes a more natural angle of each rail (angle in = angle out) but with the right English the angles change each rail (angle in < angle out)
 

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Bob Jewett

Bob Jewett

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RWOJO said:
I think I know. As long as you're hitting about the same place on the short rail (first rail) the right English widens the next angle to hit slightly deeper right on the long rail and then the right English widens the next angle even more. See diagram and red line


Sooo, without the right English it takes a more natural angle of each rail (angle in = angle out) but with the right English the angles change each rail (angle in < angle out)
Click to expand...
The other possibility is that plain draw has a wider arc and hits the first cushion along a shorter path.

I think that the "more spin goes longer" situation occurs only when the second rail dominates the action of the ball. I think this depends on the condition of the cloth. On sticky cloth, the spin will take more on the first cushion and you may get a shorter return for more spin.
 
3kushn

3kushn

AzB Silver Member
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Bob Jewett said:
The other possibility is that plain draw has a wider arc and hits the first cushion along a shorter path.

I think that the "more spin goes longer" situation occurs only when the second rail dominates the action of the ball. I think this depends on the condition of the cloth. On sticky cloth, the spin will take more on the first cushion and you may get a shorter return for more spin.
Click to expand...

The point of coming into the short at a steeper angle was my thought even though hitting the same spot on the short rail. The other point you made is also contributing I suppose. The cloth had only an hour of play at most. Forgot to mention that.:eek:
 
S

scottjen26

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With a full hit like that, especially on newer cloth, the spin will still be present on the second rail causing the ball to go longer as RWOJO said. Its possible the arc into the rail might be slightly different, but my bet is on the spin. I will do this on purpose to lengthen/shorten certain shots.
Scott

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