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08-02-2019, 08:48 AM

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Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
...if you ... strike the cb slightly off center, it would still be a parallel strike with an immediate swoop. If you're not starting out parallel, it's not a swoop stroke.
Parallel to what?

When does the "immediate" swoop happen?

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chgo
  
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08-02-2019, 08:56 AM

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Originally Posted by BC21 View Post
Here's a great swoop stroke experiment by Dr. Dave. Convinced me that nothing special occurs with a swoop stroke.
It stands to simple reason: unless something significant can change during the 1/1000th of a second contact time, then a swoop stroke logically can't produce anything different from a straight stroke.

Quote:
However, the placebo effect is very powerful. If a player feels like a swoop stroke works better, and they can do it with consistency, then that's all that matters.
Maybe. I think it would be a step backwards to teach the technique to somebody who doesn't already use it. In fact, if it isn't already so ingrained that it would be too much effort to unteach it, I think that's what should be done.

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08-03-2019, 03:43 PM

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Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
[QUOTEer arm do most of the work for this stroke.

Willie Mosconi liked to shoot a sixteenth of an inch below center, letting the curvature of his cue tip create stun. There may be an audible pop made when you play this stroke.

A stun-run through is another Mosconi favorite. Aim just above center and run the cue ball just through where the nearby object ball sits now.

I learned this one from Nick Varner in person - the "dead stun spot" is about halfway between the center and bottom of the cue ball. Jack up the cue slightly with your stroke hand. Stroke medium or medium-soft over most cue ball-object ball distances. The ball stops like magic. At close range, you can strike through cue ball center to stop the cue ball after full impact with an object ball. But over this or most any other distance, we can aim lower than center cue ball and/or hit harder if not using the dead stun spot.

Here's a (some pros use this) pro way to play topspin, called "walking the ladder". Aim and practice stroke center ball, take the final backstroke, and on the final forward stroke only, come up to hit the cue ball high. The stick angle helps the immediate forward roll.

2) Have you read on this thread that it was called "carabao english" for quite a while when world-beating Filipino pros were showing it off prominently? I can't give you citations for what pros have told me in person, but here's one from an article:

According to Earl Strickland, currently ranked #4 and winner of dozens of pro events, "I've played so much that I don't have to think about it. But I also spin the balls in, as I think many of the pros do; they're using so much english all the time. Pros spin the ball in the hole and that's mostly from feel. If you're really going to learn to aim, you have to know better how to spin the ball, and what effect that's having on the object ball. Amateurs who don't spin the ball will have an easier time with straight aiming."

Source: http://www.sfbilliards.com/Misc/PnB_aiming.pdf

Before anyone says "He's speaking of throwing cuts in, not spinning them in," understand he's one of any number of pros who sometimes aligns a cut as a full shot along the line of centers than flicks on the stroke to cut the ball in, and if you think about it--I hope you people will (!)--starting center-to-center then flicking the cut in ALWAYS gives outside (anti-throw!) spin to the shot!

3) It's hard to see when a pro puts up a quarter tip of flicked or swooped english. But you've never seen a pro in person, or online, cut a ball in with spin so that their cue stick follow through was a diamond or more off the shot line? You marveled at straight pro strokes but can't think of a pro who addresses the dead center base of the cue ball then swoops up for center ball/follow? If they address the base of the ball on 100% of regular shots (no interference balls, etc.) how do they use any english at all without swooping for english?
I'm sure in the future I'll be continuing to dispute your assumptions. I've decided to give up on this thread but I'd like to say a few things before departing.
I chose this particular post to reply to because it displays the inconsistancies and inaccuracies of just about everything you say. And IMO that's not even the worst of it. You come out with stuff which in many instances is plain everyday wrong but the worst part is that the things you throw out there (right, wrong or subject to interpretation) have no bearing whatsoever on what was stated or asked. And you act like they're known facts and that the person(s) replying to your posts either can't read nor understand what you've written.
I have news for you. You don't think 3 levels above the rest of us. That would immediately become clear to anyone who took a look at your material on liveabout.com.
Here's a small sample--

"Some of today's tips I cannot recall seeing anywhere else before in print or online in the form in which I state them, and we About.com Guides love bringing you thousands, even hundreds of thousands of insights, to our many millions of readers. Enjoy!"

"Use a near level stroke and you can practically forget about adjusting target aim when using English"

There are many more if anyone cares to check it out.
This one's my favorite.

"Secrets Of The Pros
Yes, the pros use secret aiming systems. More I will not say right now (unless you are paying my usual lesson fee starting at $500 U.S. for a session)! Although another hint I can give you, as shown on articles elsewhere here at this About.com expert guidance website, is this--my stance is designed so that nothing is in the way of making pure center ball contact to sink the next object ball.
That's about as close as I can come to telling you my secret aiming pool systems for better billiards!
Have fun and shoot me an e-mail if you want to discuss this further."

I had planned to take some specific parts of this post, break them down and tell you what I think. Why should I waste the time, if you reply it'll likely be in the form of meandering off on another tangent.
Oh what the hell, let's give it a shot. Occasionally people suprise you.

"Willie Mosconi liked to shoot a sixteenth of an inch below center,
letting the curvature of his cue tip create stun. There may be an
audible pop made when you play this stroke."

Ist of all, how do you know this? You never talked to him. You never saw him play. I suppose there're a few people still alive who might have knowledge of this. Did one of them tell you this? I'm much older than you, have actually seen Mosconi play (approx. 20 times) and talked to him a couple times but I'm not able to confirm that. The only person I can think of who might know is Peter Burrows. I'll ask him when I see him.
But, my main question here concerns this "audible pop"
Was that when he did it back then or is it now? To be truthful I have no idea what Willie used for a tip. I only mention that because it's my assumption (correct me if I'm wrong) that the sound you might hear when striking the CB is largely dependant on the type of tip (more than anything) and possibly the shaft. I don't think hitting a sixteenth of an inch "below" center (as opposed to, let's say, 1/16th "above" center) has much to do with the sound of the strike.

And then there's this" "A stun-run through is another Mosconi favorite. Aim just above center
and run the cue ball just through where the nearby object ball sits now."

I'll also ask Peter if this was a Mosconi favorite but again, my main question is with the 2nd sentence in your statement-----"Aim just above center
and run the cue ball just through where the nearby object ball sits now."

That is an incomplete and/or inaccurate statement. Any reasonably competent player (not to mention, instructor) would know that this particular shot (as most shots are) is speed and distance dependant.

I'll leave the Nick Varner/dead stun spot one alone other than to say it's not magic and again, stun and stun run through shots are speed and distance related. At times there is a "range" of speed and vertical hit that works but to say a particular speed and hit works in "most" instances is flat out incorrect.

Finally, let's talk about the "carabao english" which you say the world-beating Filipino pros (you make it sound like they came over here and completely revolutionized the way everyone applied english to the CB . Gimme a break) were showing it off. You use that as a fancy name for swooping.
Then, to prove your point, you quote Earl Strickland in a 24 year old article. Just a little joke but I didn't realize Earl was Filipino.I thought he was from N. Carolina. Just goes to prove you can't believe everything you read.
Beyond that, the article had nothing to do with swooping. It was an article asking a number of pro pool players how they aimed.
The gist of what Earl said was that if you use a lot of english,like
he and other pro players do, then you have to adjust your aim.
The terminology (spinning balls in) he used could just as easily be described as throwing balls in. It's one and the same thing, it's just terminology.
It's simply that you use english to direct the OB on a little different path than it would take if it was hit with no english.
I happen to call that throwing balls in. Earl calls it spinning balls in. Whatever, it's the same damn thing. To say it's something else is absurd.

Again, I'm not an instructor. I don't think PJ's an instructor either. And I'll be honest, some of the stuff he puts on here is over my head. The most recent diagram he put up is an example. I don't have a clue what it means.
But my instincts tell me he's probably right.
But as far as swooping goes he and I have (maybe in different words) basically said the same thing. The only thing that has bearing on CB action (ignoring speed and quality of delivery) is tip direction AT CONTACT. I don't care if your tip started in Florida, swung around Jupiter and then dived towards the Sun.

You describe yourself as an instructor. What exactly does that mean? Are you a "certified" instructor?
I'm probably wrong but as far as I know if you pay 400.00? and apply somewhere? you can get certified?
I don't know, is that correct?
I can tell you about the one guy who I know is a certified instructor and deals primarily with junior players. I've watched a number his sessions.
He's a really nice guy and I admire his dedication but to be perfectly frank, he's a terrible instructor.
His knowledge is limited, the kids do things blatantly wrong and if he even sees that, he does nothing to try and correct them.
It's kind of the same as when you think about commentators on pool videos. There're threads about it on here and the consensus is usually indictative that the commentary is, not all that great.
Why is that? I suppose a simple answer would be that they're not aware of the subtleties of the game. Of course some people are more adept than others at conveying something they know in an easily understandable way. Regardless of that though, no one will be able to describe what's going on if they themselves are not aware of it.
While most rules or concepts about what happens on a pool table can usually be described in fairly simple terms that even non pool players can understand, in many cases there are little, very subtle details that have an effect on the outcome.
I don't know how many times I've heard a commentator say "well, he's in good shape because he can cut the 3 in and draw over by the rail to have a good angle on the 4". Unfortunately he's completely unaware of the fact that if they hit the shot hard enough to maintain backspin then they'll over run position by 3 feet.
Then the player does something different and they're like "oh, I'm surprised they shot it that way"
I guess it's real simple. If the commentators knowledge about the way the balls work is lacking then his commentary will be lacking.
Something tells me the same is true for "instructors"

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08-04-2019, 05:31 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Parallel to what?

When does the "immediate" swoop happen?

pj
chgo
My point is that the swoop method starts with initial contact with the cue straight over the line of the shot. That's the whole idea of this method. If the player accidentally happens to line up slightly off center erroneously, then the pool cue should be lined up parallel to the line of the shot in order for a swoop method to take place.

Try it with a beach ball. You may see it easier.

You might be right that the tip doesn't really stay on the cue ball longer, but if it doesn't, then the swoop method is a double hit by the way the pool cue follows through as it changes direction. The cue ball doesn't have enough time to get out of the way.

Like I wrote before, I do question if it's a legal shot.
  
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08-04-2019, 06:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
My point is that the swoop method starts with initial contact with the cue straight over the line of the shot. That's the whole idea of this method. If the player accidentally happens to line up slightly off center erroneously, then the pool cue should be lined up parallel to the line of the shot in order for a swoop method to take place.

Try it with a beach ball. You may see it easier.

You might be right that the tip doesn't really stay on the cue ball longer, but if it doesn't, then the swoop method is a double hit by the way the pool cue follows through as it changes direction. The cue ball doesn't have enough time to get out of the way. Like I wrote before, I do question if it's a legal shot.
I think I (mostly) get how you see it now, Fran, even if we interpret it differently. Thanks!

pj
chgo

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08-05-2019, 05:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BC21 View Post
Here's a great swoop stroke experiment by Dr. Dave. Convinced me that nothing special occurs with a swoop stroke. However, the placebo effect is very powerful. If a player feels like a swoop stroke works better, and they can do it with consistency, then that's all that matters.
1) Have you read the whole thread? Dr. Dave did a wild arm movement--everyone I know who swoops does a tiny wrist movement. A tiny movement of the wrist is enough to deviate the cue tip.

2) The placebo effect does not explain the many students of mine who swoop successfully or the pros who've done so here and there for a century.


-- Matt Sherman

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08-05-2019, 05:37 AM

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Originally Posted by sparkle84 View Post
I'm sure in the future I'll be continuing to dispute your assumptions. I've decided to give up on this thread but I'd like to say a few things before departing.
I chose this particular post to reply to because it displays the inconsistancies and inaccuracies of just about everything you say. And IMO that's not even the worst of it. You come out with stuff which in many instances is plain everyday wrong but the worst part is that the things you throw out there (right, wrong or subject to interpretation) have no bearing whatsoever on what was stated or asked. And you act like they're known facts and that the person(s) replying to your posts either can't read nor understand what you've written.
I have news for you. You don't think 3 levels above the rest of us. That would immediately become clear to anyone who took a look at your material on liveabout.com.
Here's a small sample--

"Some of today's tips I cannot recall seeing anywhere else before in print or online in the form in which I state them, and we About.com Guides love bringing you thousands, even hundreds of thousands of insights, to our many millions of readers. Enjoy!"

"Use a near level stroke and you can practically forget about adjusting target aim when using English"

There are many more if anyone cares to check it out.
This one's my favorite.

"Secrets Of The Pros
Yes, the pros use secret aiming systems. More I will not say right now (unless you are paying my usual lesson fee starting at $500 U.S. for a session)! Although another hint I can give you, as shown on articles elsewhere here at this About.com expert guidance website, is this--my stance is designed so that nothing is in the way of making pure center ball contact to sink the next object ball.
That's about as close as I can come to telling you my secret aiming pool systems for better billiards!
Have fun and shoot me an e-mail if you want to discuss this further."

I had planned to take some specific parts of this post, break them down and tell you what I think. Why should I waste the time, if you reply it'll likely be in the form of meandering off on another tangent.
Oh what the hell, let's give it a shot. Occasionally people suprise you.

"Willie Mosconi liked to shoot a sixteenth of an inch below center,
letting the curvature of his cue tip create stun. There may be an
audible pop made when you play this stroke."

Ist of all, how do you know this? You never talked to him. You never saw him play. I suppose there're a few people still alive who might have knowledge of this. Did one of them tell you this? I'm much older than you, have actually seen Mosconi play (approx. 20 times) and talked to him a couple times but I'm not able to confirm that. The only person I can think of who might know is Peter Burrows. I'll ask him when I see him.
But, my main question here concerns this "audible pop"
Was that when he did it back then or is it now? To be truthful I have no idea what Willie used for a tip. I only mention that because it's my assumption (correct me if I'm wrong) that the sound you might hear when striking the CB is largely dependant on the type of tip (more than anything) and possibly the shaft. I don't think hitting a sixteenth of an inch "below" center (as opposed to, let's say, 1/16th "above" center) has much to do with the sound of the strike.

And then there's this" "A stun-run through is another Mosconi favorite. Aim just above center
and run the cue ball just through where the nearby object ball sits now."

I'll also ask Peter if this was a Mosconi favorite but again, my main question is with the 2nd sentence in your statement-----"Aim just above center
and run the cue ball just through where the nearby object ball sits now."

That is an incomplete and/or inaccurate statement. Any reasonably competent player (not to mention, instructor) would know that this particular shot (as most shots are) is speed and distance dependant.

I'll leave the Nick Varner/dead stun spot one alone other than to say it's not magic and again, stun and stun run through shots are speed and distance related. At times there is a "range" of speed and vertical hit that works but to say a particular speed and hit works in "most" instances is flat out incorrect.

Finally, let's talk about the "carabao english" which you say the world-beating Filipino pros (you make it sound like they came over here and completely revolutionized the way everyone applied english to the CB . Gimme a break) were showing it off. You use that as a fancy name for swooping.
Then, to prove your point, you quote Earl Strickland in a 24 year old article. Just a little joke but I didn't realize Earl was Filipino.I thought he was from N. Carolina. Just goes to prove you can't believe everything you read.
Beyond that, the article had nothing to do with swooping. It was an article asking a number of pro pool players how they aimed.
The gist of what Earl said was that if you use a lot of english,like
he and other pro players do, then you have to adjust your aim.
The terminology (spinning balls in) he used could just as easily be described as throwing balls in. It's one and the same thing, it's just terminology.
It's simply that you use english to direct the OB on a little different path than it would take if it was hit with no english.
I happen to call that throwing balls in. Earl calls it spinning balls in. Whatever, it's the same damn thing. To say it's something else is absurd.

Again, I'm not an instructor. I don't think PJ's an instructor either. And I'll be honest, some of the stuff he puts on here is over my head. The most recent diagram he put up is an example. I don't have a clue what it means.
But my instincts tell me he's probably right.
But as far as swooping goes he and I have (maybe in different words) basically said the same thing. The only thing that has bearing on CB action (ignoring speed and quality of delivery) is tip direction AT CONTACT. I don't care if your tip started in Florida, swung around Jupiter and then dived towards the Sun.

You describe yourself as an instructor. What exactly does that mean? Are you a "certified" instructor?
I'm probably wrong but as far as I know if you pay 400.00? and apply somewhere? you can get certified?
I don't know, is that correct?
I can tell you about the one guy who I know is a certified instructor and deals primarily with junior players. I've watched a number his sessions.
He's a really nice guy and I admire his dedication but to be perfectly frank, he's a terrible instructor.
His knowledge is limited, the kids do things blatantly wrong and if he even sees that, he does nothing to try and correct them.
It's kind of the same as when you think about commentators on pool videos. There're threads about it on here and the consensus is usually indictative that the commentary is, not all that great.
Why is that? I suppose a simple answer would be that they're not aware of the subtleties of the game. Of course some people are more adept than others at conveying something they know in an easily understandable way. Regardless of that though, no one will be able to describe what's going on if they themselves are not aware of it.
While most rules or concepts about what happens on a pool table can usually be described in fairly simple terms that even non pool players can understand, in many cases there are little, very subtle details that have an effect on the outcome.
I don't know how many times I've heard a commentator say "well, he's in good shape because he can cut the 3 in and draw over by the rail to have a good angle on the 4". Unfortunately he's completely unaware of the fact that if they hit the shot hard enough to maintain backspin then they'll over run position by 3 feet.
Then the player does something different and they're like "oh, I'm surprised they shot it that way"
I guess it's real simple. If the commentators knowledge about the way the balls work is lacking then his commentary will be lacking.
Something tells me the same is true for "instructors"
There is no excuse for your rude behavior throughout this thread. None. I've been exceptionally thorough in responding to you, and more than patient.


-- Matt Sherman

Guide to Pool and Billiards, About.com
Instruction Staff, InsidePool Magazine
Author, book/DVD combo, Picture Yourself Shooting Pool
  
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08-05-2019, 05:41 AM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Yep - only took you two posts to reconvince me. So... *plonk*

I suggest others looking for instruction keep looking.

pj
chgo
There still remains no reason--none--to call me a liar! The slander has no place here. It will not be tolerated from you again.


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08-05-2019, 08:42 AM

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Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
1) ...everyone I know who swoops does a tiny wrist movement. A tiny movement of the wrist is enough to deviate the cue tip.
...
So, you believe that by a tiny wrist movement they are going to significantly change the stroke? In my view, such thinking is entirely wrong and broken.

As for the "everyone I know", it seems that you cannot name anyone in the top 100 Fargo-rated players who uses the technique. Of course if it is a "tiny wrist movement" I suppose one could look at any video where the grip can be seen and exclaim, "There! See that! That tiny wrist movement is what I'm talking about. That let Ouschan spin the cue ball around three cushions effortlessly. This pro knows the secret of playing great pool."

I agree with both you and Pat. Pat is out of line for implying you are not honest. (He did not actually call you a liar.) I believe that you believe what you are saying. On the other hand, I am quite certain that what you are saying is incorrect and it would be a mistake for anyone to try to follow your instruction in this area of pool. And I agree with Pat that your style of argumentation is, stated charitibly, slippery.


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08-05-2019, 09:24 AM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
[to BilliardsAbout]: Pat is out of line for implying you are not honest.

...

I agree with Pat that your style of argumentation is, stated charitably, slippery.
I guess it depends on where you draw the line between slippery and dishonest. You may be more charitable than I. I may have more experience with his slipperiness.

Anyway, it's history for me.

pj
chgo

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08-05-2019, 09:31 AM

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Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
1) Have you read the whole thread? Dr. Dave did a wild arm movement--everyone I know who swoops does a tiny wrist movement. A tiny movement of the wrist is enough to deviate the cue tip.

2) The placebo effect does not explain the many students of mine who swoop successfully or the pros who've done so here and there for a century.
I understand what you're saying. The last second quick wrist action causes more sideways tip speed across the surface of the cb when compared to swooping the entire stroke arm. This makes sense to me, and I actual do use wrist action like this on certain shots. I feel like it works better for me on these shots than a straightforward stroke through the cb. But that's me. I feel like I can shoot softer using a little wrist action and get great spin, where as I'd have to shoot a little firmer using a straightforward hit to achieve the same spin.

It makes sense if I look at it like this: When a cb strikes an ob off center the friction between the balls imparts a slight rotational spin to the ob. When a spinning/rotating cb collides with an ob, the sideways motion across the surface of the ob imparts a little more spin/rotation, or spin tranfer or whatever, to the ob, regardless of the fact that the contact time and friction between the balls is very small. Now, if we have a cue tip moving straight through the cb on an off center hit, natural (due to an absorbent tip and plenty of chalk) there is much more friction and much more contact time (when compared to cb to ob collisions), so plenty of spin is applied to the cb. If, in addition to moving forward through the cb, if the tip were also moving sideways across the surface of the cb it seems like it might create more cb spin, but no more than can be generated using a straight stroke with different speed.

The only thing that really matters is results, and results vary depending on one's ability to strike the cb exactly as intended. I believe I can get the same results either way, swoop or no swoop, max english, but it's all relative to the speed I use for each method. As difficult as this game can be for those trying to learn, it's probably not good to deviate from traditional straightforward stroking fundamentals until the player has developed an excellent stroke and can manipulate it at will.


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08-05-2019, 02:04 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I think I (mostly) get how you see it now, Fran, even if we interpret it differently. Thanks!

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08-06-2019, 05:15 AM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
So, you believe that by a tiny wrist movement they are going to significantly change the stroke? In my view, such thinking is entirely wrong and broken.

As for the "everyone I know", it seems that you cannot name anyone in the top 100 Fargo-rated players who uses the technique. Of course if it is a "tiny wrist movement" I suppose one could look at any video where the grip can be seen and exclaim, "There! See that! That tiny wrist movement is what I'm talking about. That let Ouschan spin the cue ball around three cushions effortlessly. This pro knows the secret of playing great pool."

I agree with both you and Pat. Pat is out of line for implying you are not honest. (He did not actually call you a liar.) I believe that you believe what you are saying. On the other hand, I am quite certain that what you are saying is incorrect and it would be a mistake for anyone to try to follow your instruction in this area of pool. And I agree with Pat that your style of argumentation is, stated charitibly, slippery.
You are far overstating my position, I did not say swooping is the pro secret of pool. Nor did I say a wrist twist significantly changes the stroke.

I didn't say watch for a slight wrist twist among the pros. I've prior posted on this thread regarding top pros and swoop indicators. Your remarks show me you haven't read most of my posts on this thread nor PJ's nor Fran's.

You aren't the only person claiming I should never teach a wrist swoop, yet my students benefit from it. Perhaps I will video an upcoming group clinic and post it here.

Thanks for affirming my honesty.


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08-06-2019, 05:20 AM

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Originally Posted by BC21 View Post
I understand what you're saying. The last second quick wrist action causes more sideways tip speed across the surface of the cb when compared to swooping the entire stroke arm. This makes sense to me, and I actual do use wrist action like this on certain shots. I feel like it works better for me on these shots than a straightforward stroke through the cb. But that's me. I feel like I can shoot softer using a little wrist action and get great spin, where as I'd have to shoot a little firmer using a straightforward hit to achieve the same spin.

It makes sense if I look at it like this: When a cb strikes an ob off center the friction between the balls imparts a slight rotational spin to the ob. When a spinning/rotating cb collides with an ob, the sideways motion across the surface of the ob imparts a little more spin/rotation, or spin tranfer or whatever, to the ob, regardless of the fact that the contact time and friction between the balls is very small. Now, if we have a cue tip moving straight through the cb on an off center hit, natural (due to an absorbent tip and plenty of chalk) there is much more friction and much more contact time (when compared to cb to ob collisions), so plenty of spin is applied to the cb. If, in addition to moving forward through the cb, if the tip were also moving sideways across the surface of the cb it seems like it might create more cb spin, but no more than can be generated using a straight stroke with different speed.

The only thing that really matters is results, and results vary depending on one's ability to strike the cb exactly as intended. I believe I can get the same results either way, swoop or no swoop, max english, but it's all relative to the speed I use for each method. As difficult as this game can be for those trying to learn, it's probably not good to deviate from traditional straightforward stroking fundamentals until the player has developed an excellent stroke and can manipulate it at will.
Thank you. When you consider the tiny movement required to bring a tip over a half tip's width or so in the stroke--it's not a big chicken wing movement and is simply accomplished.

Again, I don't teach english (in a first lesson or two or three or four!) in most cases, however, when someone complains about struggling with english for a long time, a minuscule wrist move patches them up in about a stroke or two. Seriously.


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08-06-2019, 05:28 AM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I guess it depends on where you draw the line between slippery and dishonest. You may be more charitable than I. I may have more experience with his slipperiness.

Anyway, it's history for me.

pj
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Your remarks above are inappropriate. I've asked you several times on this thread to debate (or not) without slander. Slander goes way beyond your typical ad hom accusations and rude behavior.

With this post, I'm asking the moderators to review your behavior in this thread.


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