CTE questions

Dan White · Dec 19, 2019

cookie man said:
So how many shots or angles could a true pivot system be used for? Talking no adjustments or anything, strictly follow the instructions. You say a few shots, what are they?

I think PJ or someone worked out some numbers. I say it depends on on the table - length and tightness of pockets. Rough stab I'd guess you might make half the shots with a "professional" CTE system if you didn't tweak the alignment to the (already known) shot line.

Maybe I missed it so I'll ask. Do you dispute Brian's comment (and why), which was:

Now, looking at pivot aiming, it's equally as absurd to think one or two pivots can make every shot simply because they happen to work on a few shots when the balls are in the right position. On every other shot, when the balls aren't lying perfect for the pivot, the player must develop the ability to either tweak the offset or tweak the pivot point in order to arrive on the shot line, and they must be able to recognize that they are on the shot line.

cookie man · Dec 19, 2019

Dan White said:
I think PJ or someone worked out some numbers. I say it depends on on the table - length and tightness of pockets. Rough stab I'd guess you might make half the shots with a "professional" CTE system if you didn't tweak the alignment to the (already known) shot line.

.[/I]

Which half would you make and which would you miss. Need more info then a guess.

BC21 · Dec 19, 2019

cookie man said:
So how many shots or angles could a true pivot system be used for? Talking no adjustments or anything, strictly follow the instructions. You say a few shots, what are they?

Countless shots. It depends on the reference line and the distance between the balls.

Example: If you keep the distance the same and use a cb edge to ob edge reference line (align your cue with this line), then use a 10" bridge length and make that your pivot point, then pivot to ccb and shoot, you end up creating one shot angle. Now put more distance between the cb and ob and use the same reference and same pivot point. You'll create a thinner cut angle. The more distance between the balls the thinner the cut you create, until eventually the cb misses the ob completely.

There are quite a bit of shot angles created in this example, but only one pivot angle. So in order to use this method to pocket any given ball, your one pivot angle would have to just happen to line you up on the appropriate line needed to pocket the ball. If it doesn't, it won't work unless you change your pivot angle, which means change the initial reference line or change your pivot point.

With CTE it's different, as you know, because the reference line from which the pivot originates (the perception) is actually based on two separate visuals, which combined give you a unique ccb perspective. It's not as straightforward as an edge to edge reference or a fractional aim line reference. But using a strictly defined pivot, like the half tip offset with a fixed bridgehand, only allows for 2 shot angles (by use of one pivot angle, either from the left or right) on any given shot depending from which side of the perception line you begin the pivot. If neither of these angles look right, which can and does happen, then you'll have to tweak the pivot to make it work out right. The key word here is "if", because many times it does work out without tweaking the pivot.

cookie man · Dec 19, 2019

Dan White said:
Maybe I missed it so I'll ask. Do you dispute Brian's comment (and why), which was:

Now, looking at pivot aiming, it's equally as absurd to think one or two pivots can make every shot simply because they happen to work on a few shots when the balls are in the right position. On every other shot, when the balls aren't lying perfect for the pivot, the player must develop the ability to either tweak the offset or tweak the pivot point in order to arrive on the shot line, and they must be able to recognize that they are on the shot line.

I totally dispute his opinion. Do you really think a pivot system only works "on a few shots when the balls are in the right position". If you do please tell me those right positions.I'd love to know exactly what they are.
I dispute it because i've learned the systems, i use the systems, and they most certainly work on each and every normal shot.

cookie man · Dec 19, 2019

BC21 said:
Countless shots. It depends on the reference line and the distance between the balls.

Example: If you keep the distance the same and use a cb edge to ob edge reference line (align your cue with this line), then use a 10" bridge length and make that your pivot point, then pivot to ccb and shoot, you end up creating one shot angle. Now put more distance between the cb and ob and use the same reference and same pivot point. You'll create a thinner cut angle. The more distance between the balls the thinner the cut you create, until eventually the cb misses the ob completely.

There are quite a bit of shot angles created in this example, but only one pivot angle. So in order to use this method to pocket any given ball, your one pivot angle would have to just happen to line you up on the appropriate line needed to pocket the ball. If it doesn't, it won't work unless you change your pivot angle, which means change the initial reference line or change your pivot point.

With CTE it's different, as you know, because the reference line from which the pivot originates (the perception) is actually based on two separate visuals, which combined give you a unique ccb perspective. It's not as straightforward as an edge to edge reference or a fractional aim line reference. But using a strictly defined pivot, like the half tip offset with a fixed bridgehand, only allows for 2 shot angles on any given shot depending from which side of the perception line you begin the pivot. If neither of these angles look right, which can and does happen, then you'll have to tweak the pivot to make it work out right.

So you can't narrow anything down. If it doesn't look right you must tweak,lol. Other pivot systems do use the same points over and over to create different angles to make different shots. 90/90 makes numerous shots with the exact same pivot. Then you switch to 90 half for numerous more shots.
If you can't give exact shots the systems don't work for then how could you possibly know if you are right.

Patrick Johnson · Dec 19, 2019

BC21 said:
I'm talking about defined/planned pivots, where the initial alignment of the cue is several degreed from the shot line, lined up in reference to the cb edge or a half tip from ccb or whatever. I think you are talking about the tweaking that occurs once you are down on the line, sweeping or pivoting a little right or left as needed, which I wouldn't call a pivot.

I'm thinking they're pretty much the same thing - a "system pivot" starts from farther away and becomes a "tweaking pivot" as it gets close to the target. Bridge placement and pivot are where system instructions are "customized" to the shot at hand.

pj
chgo

Dan White · Dec 19, 2019

cookie man said:
I totally dispute his opinion. Do you really think a pivot system only works "on a few shots when the balls are in the right position". If you do please tell me those right positions.I'd love to know exactly what they are.
I dispute it because i've learned the systems, i use the systems, and they most certainly work on each and every normal shot.

I'm not sure why you think it would be difficult to identify which shots work and which don't. It's pretty easy. Each perception A, B, C corresponds to a particular angle, let's say approximately 15, 30 and 45 degrees. If you pivot a fixed amount from a consistent distance from the cue ball you will send the ob off at a defined angle. Roughly 15, 30 or 45 etc. You will make all the shots that happen to be at these angles plus others that are close to those angles. Depending on the distance to the pocket and size of pocket you will make some and miss some. For any angle not near these increments you have little chance of pocketing a ball unless you tweak the cue direction based on experience.

People who believe in magic or something that "was never meant to be" simply respond by saying I don't understand and I'm a hater and the only way I'll understand is to learn how to use it. Well, I did learn to use it and that's why I have concluded what I say above.

It would be nice for a change for a CTE supporter to say something in response that actually makes sense. I guess I'll have to wait for your reply to see if this is the lucky day...

Boxcar · Dec 19, 2019

Bridge length while shooting over a rail?
Pivoting while shooting over a rail?
Bridge length while shooting over a pocket?
Pivoting while shooting over a pocket?
Bridge length while shooting over another ball?
Pivoting while shooting over another ball?
Bridge length while using the rake to shoot over another ball?
Pivoting while using the rake to shoot over another ball?
Pivoting while shooting a 2", or 3", or 4" or 5" shot?(measurements refer to distance between CB and OB)

goettlicher · Dec 19, 2019

cookie man said:
So how many shots or angles could a true pivot system be used for? Talking no adjustments or anything, strictly follow the instructions. You say a few shots, what are they?

That's too ez.
All 6 shots!
Pivot on all except 30 degrees!

randyg

BC21 · Dec 19, 2019

I have found that it's useless to use mathematical logic and common sense with those who simply can't understand it.

A fixed pivot, like using a half tip manual pivot with a 10" bridge (the pivot point), creates one pivot angle. That means something. If you don't understand what that means then you have no chance of understanding how many shot angles that one fixed pivot can create. Here's a clue.....two. The pivot can only create two shot angles or any given cb-ob relationship -- one angle cut to the left and one to the right.

Forget about CTE perceptions for a minute. Put an ob 20" from the cb. Then we'll use any fixed ccb reference line from ccb to any point on the ob. Now do a half tip offset pivot, either from the right or left of this ref line, using a 10" bridge/pivot point, then pivot tip to ccb. That's one shot angle. Now do the same thing from the other side of that ref line and you'll create one more shot angle.

These are the only two angles that can be created using this exact pivot and reference line any time the balls are this exact distance apart. If you can create more than two shot angles from this setup then you are changing something, either the pivot angle or the initial reference line. The pivot angle can only change if you change the offset distance or the bridge length/pivot point.

It's really not complicated. And the same logic applies to the perception. With any perception as the initial reference line, a strict pivot with a fixed pivot point will only create two angles for any cb-ob relationship. Moving the ob another 3 or 4 inches away creates a new cb-ob relationship with two different angles produced this time using the same reference and the exact same pivot.

cookie man · Dec 20, 2019

BC21 said:
I have found that it's useless to use mathematical logic and common sense with those who simply can't understand it.

A fixed pivot, like using a half tip manual pivot with a 10" bridge (the pivot point), creates one pivot angle. That means something. If you don't understand what that means then you have no chance of understanding how many shot angles that one fixed pivot can create. Here's a clue.....two. The pivot can only create two shot angles or any given cb-ob relationship -- one angle cut to the left and one to the right.

Forget about CTE perceptions for a minute. Put an ob 20" from the cb. Then we'll use any fixed ccb reference line from ccb to any point on the ob. Now do a half tip offset pivot, either from the right or left of this ref line, using a 10" bridge/pivot point, then pivot tip to ccb. That's one shot angle. Now do the same thing from the other side of that ref line and you'll create one more shot angle.

These are the only two angles that can be created using this exact pivot and reference line any time the balls are this exact distance apart. If you can create more than two shot angles from this setup then you are changing something, either the pivot angle or the initial reference line. The pivot angle can only change if you change the offset distance or the bridge length/pivot point.

It's really not complicated. And the same logic applies to the perception. With any perception as the initial reference line, a strict pivot with a fixed pivot point will only create two angles for any cb-ob relationship. Moving the ob another 3 or 4 inches away creates a new cb-ob relationship with two different angles produced this time using the same reference and the exact same pivot.

So you finally understand,lol.
The pivot can only create two shot angles or any given cb-ob relationship -- one angle cut to the left and one to the right.
Moving the ob another 3 or 4 inches away creates a new cb-ob relationship with two different angles produced this time using the same reference and the exact same pivot

cookie man · Dec 20, 2019

Dan White;6541954 It would be nice for a change for a CTE supporter to say something in response that actually makes sense. I guess I'll have to wait for your reply to see if this is the lucky day...[/QUOTE said:
You want a decent conversation yet you always include a Di** comment.

BC21 · Dec 20, 2019

cookie man said:
So you finally understand,lol.
The pivot can only create two shot angles or any given cb-ob relationship -- one angle cut to the left and one to the right.
Moving the ob another 3 or 4 inches away creates a new cb-ob relationship with two different angles produced this time using the same reference and the exact same pivot

Lol. Yes. This much I've understood for quite some time. But there is an exception. Regardless of distance, the straight in shot with a 15-outside doesn't change. It always leads to straight in.

Dan White · Dec 20, 2019

cookie man said:
You want a decent conversation yet you always include a Di** comment.

So prove me wrong. You replied to Brian that the ob direction changes even though the perception does not when the ob is moved farther away. How does this result in the ball being pocketed?

Next, set up an ETA shot so that the ob is pocketed. Now set it up again except move the ob over to the left by 3 inches. Explain how the ball is still pocketed without changing your pivot length or perception rather than being sent 3 inches to the left.

Thanks.

duckie · Dec 20, 2019

BC21 said:
I have found that it's useless to use mathematical logic and common sense with those who simply can't understand it.

A fixed pivot, like using a half tip manual pivot with a 10" bridge (the pivot point), creates one pivot angle. That means something. If you don't understand what that means then you have no chance of understanding how many shot angles that one fixed pivot can create. Here's a clue.....two. The pivot can only create two shot angles or any given cb-ob relationship -- one angle cut to the left and one to the right.

Forget about CTE perceptions for a minute. Put an ob 20" from the cb. Then we'll use any fixed ccb reference line from ccb to any point on the ob. Now do a half tip offset pivot, either from the right or left of this ref line, using a 10" bridge/pivot point, then pivot tip to ccb. That's one shot angle. Now do the same thing from the other side of that ref line and you'll create one more shot angle.

These are the only two angles that can be created using this exact pivot and reference line any time the balls are this exact distance apart. If you can create more than two shot angles from this setup then you are changing something, either the pivot angle or the initial reference line. The pivot angle can only change if you change the offset distance or the bridge length/pivot point.

It's really not complicated. And the same logic applies to the perception. With any perception as the initial reference line, a strict pivot with a fixed pivot point will only create two angles for any cb-ob relationship. Moving the ob another 3 or 4 inches away creates a new cb-ob relationship with two different angles produced this time using the same reference and the exact same pivot.

But I can’t do a 1/2 pivot cause I’m using inside English on the shot.........

BC21 · Dec 20, 2019

duckie said:
But I can’t do a 1/2 pivot cause I’m using inside English on the shot.........

Lol. Copied that. Honestly though, regardless of what aiming method anyone uses, compensating for english on most shots is usually something that occurs after you determine how to shoot/aim the shot with no english.

BC21 · Dec 20, 2019

Dan White said:
So prove me wrong. You replied to Brian that the ob direction changes even though the perception does not when the ob is moved farther away. How does this result in the ball being pocketed?

Next, set up an ETA shot so that the ob is pocketed. Now set it up again except move the ob over to the left by 3 inches. Explain how the ball is still pocketed without changing your pivot length or perception rather than being sent 3 inches to the left.

Thanks.

In Cookie's defense, he didn't say the perception doesn't change when the ob is moved farther away. It does change, which means different angles can be created with the same pivot.

But different angles are created anytime the distance between the balls changes. For example, lining your cue up on a cb edge to ob edge reference, then pivoting to ccb from a 10" bridge length creates about a 15° cut shot with only 6" between cb and ob. Now move the ob so that it's 23" from the cb and try the same pivot from the same edge to edge line. The cb won't touch the ob. It'll be very close but will miss it completely.

So if you use this pivot method (edge to edge reference line) you must learn how to manipulate the pivot angle (by moving the pivot point/bridge one way or another) in order to make the pivot work out right to match the shot angle you have. In other words, you have to develop shot recognition, be able to recognize the correct shot line and make the pivot work toward it.

Dan White · Dec 20, 2019

BC21 said:
In Cookie's defense, he didn't say the perception doesn't change when the ob is moved farther away. It does change, which means different angles can be created with the same pivot.

To be clear, I'm not saying perception the way it is normally used. I'm saying use the same perception as in the ETA or ETB perception, which practically never changes, apparently, with a professional CTE system.

BC21 · Dec 20, 2019

Dan White said:
To be clear, I'm not saying perception the way it is normally used. I'm saying use the same perception as in the ETA or ETB perception, which practically never changes, apparently, with a professional CTE system.

Got it....you don't mean the 2-line perception method. Carry on. Lol

cookie man · Dec 20, 2019

cookie man said:
You want a decent conversation yet you always include a Di** comment.

Dan White said:
So prove me wrong. You replied to Brian that the ob direction changes even though the perception does not when the ob is moved farther away. How does this result in the ball being pocketed?

Next, set up an ETA shot so that the ob is pocketed. Now set it up again except move the ob over to the left by 3 inches. Explain how the ball is still pocketed without changing your pivot length or perception rather than being sent 3 inches to the left.

Thanks.

I just used Brian's words from his post number 50

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