MIke Sigel's perfect stroke

surffisher2a · Jun 16, 2020

I been watching some instructional videos on my lunch breaks the past few days and I came across Mike Sigel's "Play perfect pool disc 1".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mrcyT0d4RA

The video is almost entirely about getting the perfect stroke. Throughout the video he stressed the importance of hitting down on the cue ball with a slightly elevated cue. He specifically doesn't want you to use a flat level cue.

At first I thought he just meant you can't physically do that because of the rails, but the more you watch the video, the more it became obvious that he thinks you should be hitting down on the cue ball.

I do notice in his form that he has a very traditional pendulum stroke where with almost no elbow drop. I understand you will naturally get some down ward follow through with that, but when you hit the ball your cue will be level and its only the follow through that goes down.

What is the general consensus on his method? Old school? different strokes for different folks? Of just plain wrong?

To be honest, I was a little taken back by the video because one the things I really been working on in the past 2 months was playing with a more level cue. Almost every other video from credible instructors have stated the importance of the level cue.

Patrick Johnson · Jun 16, 2020

surffisher2a said:
Throughout the video he stressed the importance of hitting down on the cue ball with a slightly elevated cue. He specifically doesn't want you to use a flat level cue.

What is the general consensus on his method? Old school? different strokes for different folks? Of just plain wrong?

Just plain wrong. Does he say what he thinks the advantage is?

Isn't Sigel the guy who didn't believe throw exists?

pj
chgo

surffisher2a · Jun 16, 2020

Patrick Johnson said:
Just plain wrong. Does he say what he thinks the advantage is?

Isn't Sigel the guy who didn't believe throw exists?

pj
chgo

He doesn't do a good job of explaining why, he only says a level cue is a myth and that ALL shots in pool require a slight downward angle. He takes is a step further and says all those instructors who are teaching a level cue are wrong.

If you fast forward to around the 19 min mark of the video he starts explaining some of it. he just continues that methodology throughout the rest of the video and even has a drill dedicated to it (drill 2)

Patrick Johnson · Jun 16, 2020

surffisher2a said:
He doesn't do a good job of explaining why, he only says a level cue is a myth and that ALL shots in pool require a slight downward angle.

Sure sounds like he's talking about the physical impossibility of being level with the butt over a rail... but if so he should be recommending "as level as possible"...?

pj <- haven't watched the video
chgo

surffisher2a · Jun 16, 2020

Patrick Johnson said:
Sure sounds like he's talking about the physical impossibility of being level with the butt over a rail... but if so he should be recommending "as level as possible"...?

pj <- haven't watched the video
chgo

That is what I thought at first, but when you watch the video he shows a level cue and then raises it and scolds the viewer on using the level cue.

garczar · Jun 16, 2020

I've found it impossible to have dead-level cue. Level as possible is most likely what he means. IIRC CJ also has talked about having the butt slightly elevated and he's one of the greatest shotmakers i've ever seen in person.

Bob Jewett · Jun 16, 2020

surffisher2a said:
... Throughout the video he stressed the importance of hitting down on the cue ball with a slightly elevated cue. He specifically doesn't want you to use a flat level cue ...

Does he ever say why? I don't much like people who try to instruct by regal decree.

There are several reasons to play with a somewhat elevated cue:

1!!!! The rail is in the way. You may even want to have your hand more than an inch above the rail as it passes directly over it to avoid scars. I have scars.

2. It is easier to get your chin on the cue. There are huge fundamental benefits in doing that if you can.

And now for why I think Sigel demanded it although he presumably did not explain it:

3. If you really try to follow the "as level as possible" rule, you will use a very wide variety of elevations for relatively common shots. That means that you will have to compensate for swerve slightly differently on many shots.

For example, start with the cue ball two diamonds from the end rail as you shoot a ball near the side cushion with an outside draw shot to bring the cue ball back off the cushion. Now move the cue ball and object ball back towards the end rail slowly on successive shots. You will have to gradually use more and more elevation. The aiming compensation will have to be adjusted for each position.

You also run into a lot of situations where object balls force you to be slightly elevated.

Consider the alternative: a minimum elevation of about 10 degrees that you use on nearly all shots and you only go to more elevation for the few shots that require more. You have eliminated one variable -- amount of elevation -- from nearly all your side spin shots. You do have more compensation but it is always the same for a particular shot length, spin, and speed.

Scott Lee · Jun 20, 2020

Sigel is a pro player, NOT a pro instructor, and as such has no clue about what he's talking about. His videos are useless for trying to develop a great stroke. If you wish to learn a much better concept, go to professional instructors who use video analysis. Now, if it was Tony Robles giving cueing advice, I'd be listening closely, because not is Tony a top pro player, but one of the only really excellent professional instructors as well...that and he is a really great guy!

Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

AtLarge · Jun 20, 2020

Among the reasons Kevin Trudeau deserved a jail sentence was constant theft of camera time on this video.

Prey · Jul 25, 2020

Nick Varner also shoots this way. 2 of the best players to ever play the game....hmmmm I think I might listen to what they have to say.

FranCrimi · Jul 25, 2020

He did mention one thing that hinted at one reason for shooting down. He said when using topspin if you shoot upwards you'll probably miscue, therefore, he said, it's better to shoot at a downward angle. But overall he was pretty unclear about the reason for shooting downward in general. He probably would've been able to explain his reasoning (right or wrong) if Trudeau hadn't continually interrupted him.

surffisher2a · Jul 28, 2020

FranCrimi said:
He did mention one thing that hinted at one reason for shooting down. He said when using topspin if you shoot upwards you'll probably miscue, therefore, he said, it's better to shoot at a downward angle. But overall he was pretty unclear about the reason for shooting downward in general. He probably would've been able to explain his reasoning (right or wrong) if Trudeau hadn't continually interrupted him.

Thanks for this insight, its funny how little things mentioned can really help someone. When I read this last night I wondered if this tidibit of info would help me. a couple of months ago I made it a goal to start playing with a more level cue as part of improving my fundamentals. I have since been struggling with occasional mis cues when using top spin.

Well on a 15 minute break from work today, I went to the table and hit some shots with top spin and sure enough I was hitting upwards on the ball because of trying to keep the cue level, but it was actually pointing upwards slightly. I fixed my bridge hand to be higher and that immediately fixed my problem with miscuing, plus I am getting a lot more action on those follow shots.

jason · Jul 28, 2020

KT and MS were trying to sell the IPT.

Seek better instruction.

FranCrimi · Aug 9, 2020

jason said:
KT and MS were trying to sell the IPT.

Seek better instruction.

I think you're selling Mike a bit short. He's passionate about the game. That I know for a fact. Whether you agree or disagree with his teaching methodology --- that's a different story, but when he talks about pool, it's coming from the heart.

Patrick Johnson · Aug 9, 2020

surffisher2a said:
I went to the table and hit some shots with top spin and sure enough I was hitting upwards on the ball because of trying to keep the cue level, but it was actually pointing upwards slightly. I fixed my bridge hand to be higher and that immediately fixed my problem with miscuing, plus I am getting a lot more action on those follow shots.

1. How can you hit upwards on the CB at all? Your butt would have to be on the cloth and your tip more than 58" from the rail.

2. If you were hitting upwards on the CB, wouldn't raising your bridge make you hit even more upwards?

pj
chgo

DrCue'sProtege · Aug 9, 2020

FranCrimi said:
I think you're selling Mike a bit short. He's passionate about the game. That I know for a fact. Whether you agree or disagree with his teaching methodology --- that's a different story, but when he talks about pool, it's coming from the heart.

I agree Fran.

And did you notice that earlier in this thread somebody said he has no clue and his video is useless.

MIKE SIGEL??? SERIOUSLY?????????

Thats another one that boggles my mind..........

r/DCP

Bob Jewett · Aug 9, 2020

Patrick Johnson said:
1. How can you hit upwards on the CB at all? ....

I think anyone who thinks they actually hit up on the cue ball needs to look at one picture from the side taken when they think they are doing that.

But to actually answer your rhetorical question, if a pocket has a web leather liner, and the ball is on the brink of the pocket, it is possible to actually shoot upwards on it through the webbing.

Bob Byrne discusses negative elevation in one of his books and the remarkable reverse masse you can get from it. I think he also has a very specific upward shot for a ball along the rail, maybe in his 350 shots book.

surffisher2a · Aug 12, 2020

Patrick Johnson said:
1. How can you hit upwards on the CB at all? Your butt would have to be on the cloth and your tip more than 58" from the rail.

2. If you were hitting upwards on the CB, wouldn't raising your bridge make you hit even more upwards?

pj
chgo

In my case, I was over compensating trying to keep the cue level. Instead of raising my whole cue up to hit high the cue ball I was pivoting my back hand down as far as I could to raise the tip.

Fixing my bridge to a higher level allowed me to hit higher on the cue ball without dropping my back hand and still maintain a level cue.

Fixing this issue has totally resolved my random miscues when playing with a lot of top. I have also noticed my shooting percentage has been improved as well when using top. I am not rattling balls in the pocket near as much as I used to.

FranCrimi · Aug 12, 2020

surffisher2a said:
In my case, I was over compensating trying to keep the cue level. Instead of raising my whole cue up to hit high the cue ball I was pivoting my back hand down as far as I could to raise the tip.

Fixing my bridge to a higher level allowed me to hit higher on the cue ball without dropping my back hand and still maintain a level cue.

Fixing this issue has totally resolved my random miscues when playing with a lot of top. I have also noticed my shooting percentage has been improved as well when using top. I am not rattling balls in the pocket near as much as I used to.

I fell into a similar trap when I started to bend both knees in my stance. I was experimenting with my stance at that time and I wound up bending my knees more and more to the point where I was shooting up at the cue ball and started to miscue. Maybe the upward angle was just a tiny fraction more than being level, but it made a difference and caused my ball-striking instability.

3kushn · Aug 12, 2020

Bob Jewett said:
I think anyone who thinks they actually hit up on the cue ball needs to look at one picture from the side taken when they think they are doing that.

But to actually answer your rhetorical question, if a pocket has a web leather liner, and the ball is on the brink of the pocket, it is possible to actually shoot upwards on it through the webbing.

Bob Byrne discusses negative elevation in one of his books and the remarkable reverse masse you can get from it. I think he also has a very specific upward shot for a ball along the rail, maybe in his 350 shots book.

Harry Sims taught an UpStroke or rising tip, for some shots particularly diagrammed is one example. The stroke is like a swipe from center to left or right except the tip is on the rise b4 striking the CB. BTW Harry learned it from Gilbert.

How its accomplished is to move your grip way back on the cue which will naturally create a rocking motion.

Fran - Here's a Disclaimer. LOL
I showed this shot to Robert Byrne telling him a rising tip helps get out of the kiss. He said Bull Sh** and proceeded to shoot the shot by feathering the OB, moving it about 1.5 inches. That's all you have to do he said.

White is the CB

https://pad.chalkysticks.com/174c2.png

MIke Sigel's perfect stroke

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