This rejected shot should count IMO, what say you?
- Thread starter DCS_SF
- Start date
I'm gonna confess something...I actually like to argue with you...
..gotta feeling we were raised the same way.
I used to run a lot of snooker tournaments in the 80s...at snooker, if you have a tie game..
...the black ball is spotted and a coin flip decides who shoots first from the 'D'...
At some point, I became aware that two guys were playing a full game instead of one ball
....I went over and raked the balls...told them.."Gentlemen, you can't make your own rules
...re-spot the black."
After, the guy who won chided me 'We weren't holding up the tournament that much...
...it's only six reds."
I told him "If you play by the rules, a tough guy has no edge....if you make your own, a
player is open to intimidation."
Golf...match play tournament.....which resembles pool match conditions.
...if two players agree that they will waive out-of-bounds rules...and it is found out...
...they will both be disqualified.
There are still ways to show some grace in competing....I had a ruling go my way once...
...I thought he was very hard luck to lose the match....
...so I told him after the match that we were going to 'horse' 25%....
You can play hard....and still be friends.
The key words here are "Tournaments".
There has to be hard and fast rules in a Tournament.
There has to be hard and fast rules in a Tournament.
Idon't think it should count.
I do have a funny story to tell ,{funny to me}
Howard Vickery played Kenny Mc Coy about once every year or so for about 10 years . He would come back from the road, and think he had improved enough to beat his nemesis .
He never did.
He hadn't played Kenny for quite some time and was back in town and a guy wanted to back him.
They play a set, and they are hill hill, Howard finally gets to the last ball ahead of Kenny, after 20 years or so of agony.
He gets dead straight in on the 9 about 2 feet from the pocket and the cueball a foot away.
Kenny , being the kind of guy who would not even give you the correct time of day, makes him shoot it.
Howard takes his time , pulls the trigger, and is so mad, he hits it about 4 times as hard as he needed to, and it goes in and jumps back out, and sits on the lip of the pocket.
Kenny flies out of his seat and rolls it in and the backer goes kookoo.
He never did pay him lol.
You would have to know all 3 people to truly enjoy the dynamic of the situation, but even if you don't, it's pretty hilarious, knowing the rest, makes it a gut splitter.
I do have a funny story to tell ,{funny to me}
Howard Vickery played Kenny Mc Coy about once every year or so for about 10 years . He would come back from the road, and think he had improved enough to beat his nemesis .
He never did.
He hadn't played Kenny for quite some time and was back in town and a guy wanted to back him.
They play a set, and they are hill hill, Howard finally gets to the last ball ahead of Kenny, after 20 years or so of agony.
He gets dead straight in on the 9 about 2 feet from the pocket and the cueball a foot away.
Kenny , being the kind of guy who would not even give you the correct time of day, makes him shoot it.
Howard takes his time , pulls the trigger, and is so mad, he hits it about 4 times as hard as he needed to, and it goes in and jumps back out, and sits on the lip of the pocket.
Kenny flies out of his seat and rolls it in and the backer goes kookoo.
He never did pay him lol.
You would have to know all 3 people to truly enjoy the dynamic of the situation, but even if you don't, it's pretty hilarious, knowing the rest, makes it a gut splitter.
It's not just about the ball going in the hole, it's about it staying in the hole.
Feel free to play by your own rules and give the game away, but don't expect your opponent to do the same.
First, the people who decide on the rules for pool can't walk and chew gum at the same time. Obviously.
The first thing to note, is this is a refereed match (my comments may not apply to a gambling match). Easy... have a corollary to the ball pocketed rule stating that if the ref thinks the ball was legally pocketed, it stays down. There'll have to be another corollary of what happens if the ob comes in contact with the cb after that, but we won't get into that here so as not to confuse things.
That's it though, one little line of dialogue in the rules for when there's a ref present, and we'd have a better game. It'll never happen though. It's so easy to do, and it'll never, ever happen. Because the op is right on the money... why should a player be penalized for a poor table design?
The first thing to note, is this is a refereed match (my comments may not apply to a gambling match). Easy... have a corollary to the ball pocketed rule stating that if the ref thinks the ball was legally pocketed, it stays down. There'll have to be another corollary of what happens if the ob comes in contact with the cb after that, but we won't get into that here so as not to confuse things.
That's it though, one little line of dialogue in the rules for when there's a ref present, and we'd have a better game. It'll never happen though. It's so easy to do, and it'll never, ever happen. Because the op is right on the money... why should a player be penalized for a poor table design?
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Horrible idea.The worst thing you can ever possibly do is introduce subjective judgment into something where it isn't absolutely necessary. What would end up happening is one ref would see the side of the argument of "well it didn't stay down so it shouldn't count" and rule it not pocketed whereas the next ref would see the side of "well it was obviously a bad pocket design and the player shouldn't be penalized for that" and rule it pocketed for the very same circumstance. Half the refs would see it each way (just like the posters in this thread do) and would rule the way they see it in their own subjective opinion and judgment, because after all, it's a.....wait for it.....a judgment call.
Or one ref would say "the idiot should never have shot it that hard its his own fault" and rule it bad and the next would say "well maybe he shouldn't have shot it so hard but none the less it still should have stayed down anyway" and rule it good. Subjectivity causes ambiguity and leaves lots of room for argument and you guessed it--judgment. There is no arguing whether the ball stayed down or not though since it wasn't left up to someone's subjective judgment which invariably is going to vary from person to person.
The only thing worse (and it is far worse) than an imperfect rule is inconsistency in the rules or in the way that rules are administered. Subjectivity leads to inconsistency, always.
Bad Pocket
Leave it up to the opponent to decide.
Yes, the opponent could not be sportsman.
It's either that or Hard & Fast Tournament Rules that everyone adheres to.
Even these rules have their problems.
See the "Gulley problem of in on one side pocket and back out on the other side pocket" video.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4m8fZpMWzKU
It should have been called pocketed but was not because of the "must remain in pocket" part of the rules.
Bad design of the table caused that, not the player.
Having the opponent decide would have solved that dilemma.
The competitors should agree to which before the start of the match.
Ref's in my local pub? Where? Oh, you mean Johnny at the end of the bar? I don't want to wake him.
Leave it up to the opponent to decide.
Yes, the opponent could not be sportsman.
It's either that or Hard & Fast Tournament Rules that everyone adheres to.
Even these rules have their problems.
See the "Gulley problem of in on one side pocket and back out on the other side pocket" video.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4m8fZpMWzKU
It should have been called pocketed but was not because of the "must remain in pocket" part of the rules.
Bad design of the table caused that, not the player.
Having the opponent decide would have solved that dilemma.
The competitors should agree to which before the start of the match.
Ref's in my local pub? Where? Oh, you mean Johnny at the end of the bar? I don't want to wake him.
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I think this could be all summed up with one observation.
Where was the OB at the conclusion of the shot?
Where was the OB at the conclusion of the shot?
OB Not Remaining in Pocket
Yes, all well and good.
The OB did not remain in the pocket, so the ball should not count.
But it was the table's fault for having a ball return.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4m8fZpMWzKU
That is why I would not allow ball return gullies in a Tournament setting nor in my pool room.
Opponent Decides is the best I think in both settings, particularly with sub-par equipment.
Yes, all well and good.
The OB did not remain in the pocket, so the ball should not count.
But it was the table's fault for having a ball return.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4m8fZpMWzKU
That is why I would not allow ball return gullies in a Tournament setting nor in my pool room.
Opponent Decides is the best I think in both settings, particularly with sub-par equipment.
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No Tony, that shit is too easy LOL.
The tables fault? The video you linked was an entirely different situation and cause. Not close to what the OP showed. In the OP post, it is entirely possible to have that happen with a firm shot struck with a draw stroke. I had it happen to me (not often) A player should know the possibility of it happening and be aware how to avoid it.
Tell me how far should we let this go, what if a well struck ball in the corner catches a facing then bobbles and stays up. Table fault right, should we give the shooter a mulligan?
Tell me how far should we let this go, what if a well struck ball in the corner catches a facing then bobbles and stays up. Table fault right, should we give the shooter a mulligan?
Late 90s....in Pittsburg...brand new room....Gandy Big G tables.
...my first shot in a 9-ball tournament....my opponent broke dry,,,,left the 1-ball middle of
the table....not too far from the spot....cue ball was middle also, near the kitchen...
....2-ball was on a side rail.....so I'm playing the one in with low outside english to go
one rail across table for the two ball.....
...the cue ball flies off the table to the left...the one ball flies off the table to the right...
..either the end slate had popped up or the middle slate had sagged down....
...the one was leaning against almost an eighth of an inch of slate.
(when it's brand new cloth, you can't see any wear lines to warn you)
I lost that game
...my first shot in a 9-ball tournament....my opponent broke dry,,,,left the 1-ball middle of
the table....not too far from the spot....cue ball was middle also, near the kitchen...
....2-ball was on a side rail.....so I'm playing the one in with low outside english to go
one rail across table for the two ball.....
...the cue ball flies off the table to the left...the one ball flies off the table to the right...
..either the end slate had popped up or the middle slate had sagged down....
...the one was leaning against almost an eighth of an inch of slate.
(when it's brand new cloth, you can't see any wear lines to warn you)
I lost that game
pt109,
Here we are again...
If that happened in one of my matches, I would not be opposed to having the rack replayed on a different table. That table was obviously not in playable condition. If players are forced to play on such equipment, then certainly rules may need to be modified on the fly at the discretion of the tournament director.
Here we are again...
If that happened in one of my matches, I would not be opposed to having the rack replayed on a different table. That table was obviously not in playable condition. If players are forced to play on such equipment, then certainly rules may need to be modified on the fly at the discretion of the tournament director.
If this happened to my opponent at hill hill, we would be enforcing the rules and it would be my shot.
If this happened to me at hill hill, I would be *****ing and moaning about the shit table, but know that the shot not staying down means it's my opponents shot.
I have had it happen to me. It really sucks... but there isnt a damn thing you can do about it.
The tables fault? The video you linked was an entirely different situation and cause. Not close to what the OP showed. In the OP post, it is entirely possible to have that happen with a firm shot struck with a draw stroke. I had it happen to me (not often) A player should know the possibility of it happening and be aware how to avoid it.
Tell me how far should we let this go, what if a well struck ball in the corner catches a facing then bobbles and stays up. Table fault right, should we give the shooter a mulligan?
That's what the OP wants is a mulligan.
I agree. Ball did not remain in pocket. Does not count. Play continues.
Rule Book Rules, Rule.
In snooker, there's a rule that it's up to the player to see that the table
is in order before he shoots.....I agree with this rule...should be in all games.
:grin:
Sometimes justice prevails....I agree that we should have requested another table....
....but I figured that I had more road experience....I've played under a lot of conditions....
....so I didn't say a word....jacked up on a few shots to jump the slate edge....
...and I lost....:grin:...live by the sword, die by the sword.
The table was taken out of the tournament next round ...the player who complained
about it asked me why I didn't notice....I said "Wut?" :scratchhead:...figured I could
get some action later on....heh heh
The guy who beat me lost his next two matches...I made it to the last eight and cashed...
...first time I met Don Steele...he put me out hill-hill...I became very fond of him and his
wife over the next few years....great people.
If we changed tables...like we should've...I would've let my opponent start the match with
one on the wire.....see my response to Icon in red, above.
The tables fault? The video you linked was an entirely different situation and cause. Not close to what the OP showed. In the OP post, it is entirely possible to have that happen with a firm shot struck with a draw stroke. I had it happen to me (not often) A player should know the possibility of it happening and be aware how to avoid it.
Tell me how far should we let this go, what if a well struck ball in the corner catches a facing then bobbles and stays up. Table fault right, should we give the shooter a mulligan?
Well, Brunswick say those types of "misses" and fixed the pockets on those Metro tables.
THEY WERE DEFECTIVE.