The 11 just fell in from vibration....however since it was to close to call... so good hit goes to the shooter. Look to see when the 11 starts to rotate.
Good shot or foul?
- Thread starter arps
- Start date
This is the correct answer. In order to make this kind of call properly, you can't rely on "seeing" the contact, you must understand the cue ball's reaction. The rule here is to observe the tangent line of the secondary contact. If the cue ball hit the 13 (12?) first and then the 11, the cue ball would have gone towards the rail instead of the center of the table. The physics reveal this was a good hit.
In all fairness, the referee would have only had one chance to make this call, and at real-life speed. I don't know where the referee was standing, but the position of the camera angle is not where a properly trained referee would stand to make this call. He would stand on the "line of centers", which is perpendicular to the line that intersects the two object balls.
In a close situation like this, a referee must be able to definitively prove this was a foul. If you can't do that, then you must give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter and call a good hit.
It can actually be seen in the video (frame by frame) that the 11 moves a frame or so before the 13 does - hard to see but definitely there.
As you and Bob say, the CB carom also shows that, and that's what a knowledgeable ref would rely on.
pj
chgo
i call it good
It was a good hit.
This isn't the same scenario but a similar situation with two balls near the pocket. Kick 2 way billiard shot. Made both the kick shot and the billiard.
https://youtu.be/hMWTJRcXZRc?t=203
This isn't the same scenario but a similar situation with two balls near the pocket. Kick 2 way billiard shot. Made both the kick shot and the billiard.
https://youtu.be/hMWTJRcXZRc?t=203
I agree about the 11 moving first but without an overhead view I can't say the 11 moved because the cue ball grazed it. And if it moved because the cue jarred the cushion or the whole table, then it seems to me it would be a foul for hitting the 12 first...only hitting the 12 means it hit it first.
I have no idea what the rule is for a ball just falling in.
If the dropping in has an effect on the shot, the ball is reset and the shot is replayed. In this case it would be really hard to say whether it had an effect or not -- maybe if the ball hadn't settled into the pocket it would have been hit.
The action was consistent with the correct ball being just grazed by the cue ball after the cushion. I think it is not possible to see whether it was actually struck or just fell in on its own. In that situation, the ref should not call a foul.
I've never seen this happen, even with a very hard hit CB.
If it was sitting there for at least 5 seconds before it fell, then it's returned to its position on the table.
pj
chgo
I’ve seen that in person at the Rack....guy drawing off a hanging 7-ball ...whitey hit the
back of the pocket ‘cause the 7 dropped before whitey got to it.
I would’ve called good hit on the 11, BTW...shooter gets the benefit of the doubt.
So in this particular situation if the ruling is that the 11 dropped by vibration and did not have an effect on the shot, it needs to be placed on the brink for the next player and not spotted on the foot spot.
I should have been clearer - I meant you can't rely on seeing it in real time. I agree you can see it in the video, only just barely - I think a true slow motion frame rate (60 or 120FPS) would show it more clearly.