Changing pins

desi2960 · Sep 7, 2019

Different hits

After 25 plus years building cues, and working now on cue # 658, I am sure I am the dumbest builder of all that have posted on this thread. I am also sure there are experts that can feel 1 gram difference in the weight of a cue.

But I can say this having has hundreds and hundreds of people come to my shop to buy cues, 99 percent of them cannot tell the difference in a 1/2 ounce in a cue, and most really do not care.

And I rarely ever hear 2 people describe the feel or hit of a cue the same. I'm sure also in the future there will be threads about the difference in the hit of a cue with an auto clear finish and the same cue with a super glue finish.

JC · Sep 7, 2019

Michael Webb said:
Nope. Not gonna call you crazy. It's a common occurrence. Joint screws matter and every player has and needs different options. Here's the reverse of my first story. Another local, revo shaft again. Uni loc joint, stainless collar 3/4x16 thread. I switch the joint to Birdseye maple and the screw to Titanium radial. It's a good switch, good up and coming player, I like him. But something's missing for him. So I switched the Titanium radial to a brass one. A little more weight at the joint. Bingo! He's happy now.
So again. There is not one set up that fits every player.

At what skill level does a player start to have things like this matter to them? I mean to where it actually affects the level of their play?

There is a huge market for gimmicks and gadgets. It's the human condition.

Many people have gotten rich providing things that feel good.

Hits 'em Hard · Sep 7, 2019

Michael Webb said:
Radial joint screws.
Stainless, Brass, Titanium, Aluminum and G10
Are you really sure about that statement? Try all 5 in the same cue. If the hit is the same. HOUSTON! There's a problem. If the weight and balance has changed. The hit has changed.

Are you implying hit and feel are the same thing? If I change the ferrule and tip on a cue, are you implying I’m not changing the hit since the weight and balance point didn’t change?

Michael Webb · Sep 7, 2019

JC said:
At what skill level does a player start to have things like this matter to them? I mean to where it actually affects the level of their play?

There is a huge market for gimmicks and gadgets. It's the human condition.

Many people have gotten rich providing things that feel good.

Well Sir.
He's a B- player. It mattered to him. Respectfully, if you experiment and do some R&D. It might matter to you. At the very least, you MIGHT! Know the difference.

Mcues · Sep 7, 2019

At whatever skill level players decide to have a custom cue build is when they've come to the point of starting to be able to tell the difference between different set ups and dimensions and fine tune their game. Of course there's a boat load that never reach that point or want to.
As Cuemakers we build what we consider our best combination of things but we also build everything else under the sun and get to try the customers idea of perfect build. Most of the time we know what we'll be interesting and what is plain and simple ...Oh well

Mario

JoeyInCali · Sep 7, 2019

If SW used a 5/16 18 screw instead of 3/8 11 brass. their cues would hit different.
If Joe Gold used a brass 3/8 11 instead of a slightly larger G-10 10 tpi, his cues would hit different.

Michael Webb · Sep 7, 2019

Hits 'em Hard said:
Are you implying hit and feel are the same thing? If I change the ferrule and tip on a cue, are you implying I’m not changing the hit since the weight and balance point didn’t change?

Who said that. I sure didn't. You might want to read all the post again.

Hits 'em Hard · Sep 7, 2019

Michael Webb said:
Who said that. I sure didn't. You might want to read all the post again.

Well maybe you didn’t quite understand what you wrote then. If I were to change a pin, but kept the balance point the exact same. Both shaft and butt weigh the same as before, you’re implying that the hit of the cue won’t change. But the ‘hit’ is only changing because of a shifted balance point.

The point I’m making is that changing a pin is not changing the hit of the cue. It’s changing the balance point, which in turn affects your perception of the hit. It’s still the same taper/woods. But the shifted balance point allows your stroke to either feel more in tune with the cue or not. A pin change does not change the hit, it changed your perception of the hit through a shift in the balance point.

Wasn’t there a thread a while ago that tried to discus proper balancing of cues, and Schuler got brought up because of his methods to balance a cue? I believe this is just a basic offshoot of the conversation.

JoeyInCali · Sep 7, 2019

Hits 'em Hard said:
Well maybe you didn’t quite understand what you wrote then. If I were to change a pin, but kept the balance point the exact same. Both shaft and butt weigh the same as before, you’re implying that the hit of the cue won’t change. But the ‘hit’ is only changing because of a shifted balance point.

The point I’m making is that changing a pin is not changing the hit of the cue. It’s changing the balance point, which in turn affects your perception of the hit. It’s still the same taper/woods. But the shifted balance point allows your stroke to either feel more in tune with the cue or not. A pin change does not change the hit, it changed your perception of the hit through a shift in the balance point.

Wasn’t there a thread a while ago that tried to discus proper balancing of cues, and Schuler got brought up because of his methods to balance a cue? I believe this is just a basic offshoot of the conversation.

You need to made some mock-up cues.
Make one with a brass radial. Play with it for a while.
Then replace it with a G-10 radial.
Then decide if the hit did not change.

j2pac · Sep 7, 2019

JC said:
At what skill level does a player start to have things like this matter to them? I mean to where it actually affects the level of their play?

There is a huge market for gimmicks and gadgets. It's the human condition.

Many people have gotten rich providing things that feel good.

I am far from accomplished my Brother, but I would like to believe at least slightly cerebral. I have been playing pool, although not that much recently, for the better part of 30 + years, and been around cue construction, and cue materials for the better part of 20 years. It mattered to me.

Much love to you my friend, and keep up the good cue work. Remember, a happy customer is often a repeat customer.
Joe P

Hits 'em Hard · Sep 7, 2019

JoeyInCali said:
If SW used a 5/16 18 screw instead of 3/8 11 brass. their cues would hit different.
If Joe Gold used a brass 3/8 11 instead of a slightly larger G-10 10 tpi, his cues would hit different.

Both of those shops are well enough off, I’m sure they could make a cue with those pins and still get the same hit as their normal cues. Sure they’d have to modify certain procedures, but a Ebony/Ebony SW does not hit like a BEM/BEM does. Even with their 3/8-11 pins.

Hits 'em Hard · Sep 7, 2019

JoeyInCali said:
You need to made some mock-up cues.
Make one with a brass radial. Play with it for a while.
Then replace it with a G-10 radial.
Then decide if the hit did not change.

Am I allowed to place weights behind the g-10 pin and maintain the same balance point?

JoeyInCali · Sep 7, 2019

Hits 'em Hard said:
Am I allowed to place weights behind the g-10 pin and maintain the same balance point?

Yes. you can.
And that will not change how much more flex you will have in the middle of the cue.

Michael Webb · Sep 7, 2019

Hits 'em Hard said:
Well maybe you didn’t quite understand what you wrote then. If I were to change a pin, but kept the balance point the exact same. Both shaft and butt weigh the same as before, you’re implying that the hit of the cue won’t change. But the ‘hit’ is only changing because of a shifted balance point.

The point I’m making is that changing a pin is not changing the hit of the cue. It’s changing the balance point, which in turn affects your perception of the hit. It’s still the same taper/woods. But the shifted balance point allows your stroke to either feel more in tune with the cue or not. A pin change does not change the hit, it changed your perception of the hit through a shift in the balance point.

Wasn’t there a thread a while ago that tried to discus proper balancing of cues, and Schuler got brought up because of his methods to balance a cue? I believe this is just a basic offshoot of the conversation.

And you don't think changing the balance of the cue changed the way it plays. Different material screws also play differently.
Please. Make some cues.
I understood exactly what I wrote. I have to ask, Do you make cues?

Hits 'em Hard · Sep 7, 2019

Michael Webb said:
And you don't think changing the balance of the cue changed the way it plays. Different material screws also play differently.
Please. Make some cues.
I understood exactly what I wrote.

Now youre changing your tune. First you said it changed the hit. I said it did not. Now you’ve removed your usage of ‘hit’ and are now focusing on the balance point. Changing the balance point of the cue doesn’t change its hit. And as far as I am aware, no one has actually done any true robotic testing to determine what true changes are made. The human element prefers something that feels good. Changing a pin that affects the balance point then changes how that human regards the change. Anything that requires a human to say ‘this is the change’ when regards to the feel of the cue needs data to back it up. Cue makers as a whole, have refused to collaborate to do so. Instead all anyone gets is this conversation repeated every time this question is asked. No science to back up your claims, just human preference speaking.

j2pac · Sep 7, 2019

Hits 'em Hard said:
Now youre changing your tune. First you said it changed the hit. I said it did not. Now you’ve removed your usage of ‘hit’ and are now focusing on the balance point. Changing the balance point of the cue doesn’t change its hit. And as far as I am aware, no one has actually done any true robotic testing to determine what true changes are made. The human element prefers something that feels good. Changing a pin that affects the balance point then changes how that human regards the change. Anything that requires a human to say ‘this is the change’ when regards to the feel of the cue needs data to back it up. Cue makers as a whole, have refused to collaborate to do so. Instead all anyone gets is this conversation repeated every time this question is asked. No science to back up your claims, just human preference speaking.

With all due respect...do you need a scientific test to tell you when you are hungry, or feel pain? Feel, and hit are at least interconnected IMO. Maybe I am misunderstanding your contention.
Best regards.
Joe P

Hits 'em Hard · Sep 7, 2019

j2pac said:
With all due respect...do you need a scientific test to tell you when you are hungry, or feel pain? Feel, and hit are at least interconnected IMO. Maybe I am misunderstanding your contention.
Best regards.
Joe P

A cue with a stiff hit needs far more than a pin change to make it a soft hit. A cue with a soft hit, is nearly impossible to change into a stiff hit. The hit of the cue is the same regardless of what the pin is. The feel of the cue changes based upon pin because it changes the balance point. It’ll feel better in your hands or it won’t. The hit of the cue is the same. The taper, joint collars, and woods all affect hit and feel. The difference between a stiff hit(Schon) and a soft hit(Meucci) is more than the pin. A pin change does not affect its hit, it affects its feel and balance point. A SW with a 5/16-18 pin is still a stiff hitting cue.

Michael Webb · Sep 7, 2019

Hits 'em Hard said:
Now youre changing your tune. First you said it changed the hit. I said it did not. Now you’ve removed your usage of ‘hit’ and are now focusing on the balance point. Changing the balance point of the cue doesn’t change its hit. And as far as I am aware, no one has actually done any true robotic testing to determine what true changes are made. The human element prefers something that feels good. Changing a pin that affects the balance point then changes how that human regards the change. Anything that requires a human to say ‘this is the change’ when regards to the feel of the cue needs data to back it up. Cue makers as a whole, have refused to collaborate to do so. Instead all anyone gets is this conversation repeated every time this question is asked. No science to back up your claims, just human preference speaking.

Well Missy
You git me laughing. AT YOU, but at least I'm laughing. Try and have yourself a nice day. Please come back if you learn how to read. Or maybe build a cue.

conetip · Sep 7, 2019

There is a lot happening. Comparing what happens with a wood shaft and a composite shaft is very difficult. The main issue is the frequency of the speed of sound in the materials. Wood shafts is in the order of 4k m/s , some a lottle slower , some a little slower. For composites it is from 10k m/s to 20k m/s depending on the matrix, resin used type of fibre used.
So feedback from the cue hit will be very different due to the frequency response. So before the cue tip has fully compressed, the shock wave has already returned to the tip 2 times as a minimum. What people feel at the handle is not what is happening at the tip, but is a resultant and is effected mainly by the handle make up and materials used. Balance point in a cue is really important, and so is the tip. I have not seen any evidence in my testing to show that any pin has any effect on the ball hit . The degree of tightness at the joint does effect the cue as a whole. So does the contact type effect the hit as well. A shaft that is loose on the outside and seats on the inner face, is different to one that seats on the outer rim with the inner relieved.
Neil

Mcues · Sep 7, 2019

cue Hit

OK, plain and simple, Balance point changes do not change the hit of the cue. They do change the feel of the cue and could force a change to your stroke.

Ferrule changes, tip changes, pin changes, joint changes and materials used will affect the hit.

That's my two cents

Just an observation; yesterday I tried a carbon fiber shaft that I made for a customer and he loved it, heck I liked it. I put the same shaft on my ebony forearm 5/16 14 stainless cue and hated it. His cue is a Titlist 5/16 14 stainless conversion made by me.

Mario

Changing pins

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