International 9-Ball Open for 2020

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Agreed that ten ball is a little tougher, but my philosophy is that if pro pool is to be successful in drawing the amateurs as fans, the game played must be one with which the amateurs are greatly familiar. To me, that leaves eight ball and nine ball, and at least for me, where Kevin Trudeau and the IPT had it right was playing eight ball (yes, they were wrong in countless other ways), the game best known to amateurs and the only game that many who play solely in bars have ever seen.

As a fifty three year veteran of the pool halls, I have rarely seen ten ball played other than by highly accomplished players, and even then, I have rarely seen it played at all. Played Texas Express, ten ball is at least intelligible to those that play nine ball, but add "call shot", "ten ball last", "money ball doesn't count on the break" or, worst of all, "call safe", the first two of which are required under WPA rules, and the casual fan is quickly disenfranchised.

Our beloved former poster Edwin Reyes, to paraphrase, said "if it's good for the players, it's good for pro pool." With due respect for a highly respected, and sorely missed AZB poster, Edwin was mistaken. In truth, what's good for pro pool is whatever keeps the fans interested enough to watch it.

The typical amateur has never even heard of ten ball and even fewer know it as played under current WPA rules. As we saw with Bonus Ball, a game of great skill and intrigue, give the fans a game they don't know or play and not that many of them will choose to watch.

Ten ball with call shot has its place in our game as a big action game because the big action matches attract a very different type of fan. Ray Hansen and many others have offered countless exciting ten ball matches for this kind of fan, who tends to be a serious player very familiar with all games played on a pool table.

All that said, although Eurotour plays nine ball, Europe, a few years ago, added ten ball as a discipline in the European Championships. It is possible, though in my view improbable, that this will popularize ten ball among the European amateurs, but only time will tell.

I've never seen the so called "amateurs" as big pool fans. The people who come to watch the tournaments (and fill the stands) are true fans of the sport. Some play pool and some just like to watch good pool players. Most "league" (amateur) players that I've come in contact with don't even know who the top players are and could care less. If you were ever at the BCA Nationals you saw this phenomena first hand. We had some great pro tournaments there and very few amateur league players bothered to come and watch.

That said, there is a hard core audience that probably numbers in the hundreds of thousands nationally and millions worldwide, who will support a pro pool tournament. Every city, large or small, in this country has people who will come to see top level pool no matter the game. I've seen this take place in tournaments, even in little hick towns. We had crowds of more than 1,000 people watching tournaments in Burlington, Iowa and Huntsville, Alabama just to name two. We packed a 1,500 seat arena in Los Angeles for an All-Around tournament. We were just as crowded for One Pocket and Banks as we were for 9-Ball.

There is a "hidden" group of people that never go to a poolroom, but they will show up if you bring top level competition to an arena near them. Been there, done that. :wink:
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
I've never seen the so called "amateurs" as big pool fans. The people who come to watch the tournaments (and fill the stands) are true fans of the sport. Some play pool and some just like to watch good pool players. Most "league" (amateur) players that I've come in contact with don't even know who the top players are and could care less. If you were ever at the BCA Nationals you saw this phenomena first hand. We had some great pro tournaments there and very few amateur league players bothered to come and watch.

That said, there is a hard core audience that probably numbers in the hundreds of thousands nationally and millions worldwide, who will support a pro pool tournament. Every city, large or small, in this country has people who will come to see top level pool no matter the game. I've seen this take place in tournaments, even in little hick towns. We had crowds of more than 1,000 people watching tournaments in Burlington, Iowa and Huntsville, Alabama just to name two. We packed a 1,500 seat arena in Los Angeles for an All-Around tournament. We were just as crowded for One Pocket and Banks as we were for 9-Ball.

There is a "hidden" group of people that never go to a poolroom, but they will show up if you bring top level competition to an arena near them. Been there, done that. :wink:

Thanks for these insights, Jay. I'd have to say that I never viewed the fan base to which you refer as large enough to grow pro pool upon. Nonetheless, I'll defer to your experience here. Still, I'd offer Super Billiards Expo as a counterexample, for it is the thousands of amateur bar table players in attendance who are the nucleus of the fan base at the pro events staged there. That has been the formula there for over twenty years and it works.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Thanks for these insights, Jay. I'd have to say that I never viewed the fan base to which you refer as large enough to grow pro pool upon. Nonetheless, I'll defer to your experience here. Still, I'd offer Super Billiards Expo as a counterexample, for it is the thousands of amateur bar table players in attendance who are the nucleus of the fan base at the pro events staged there. That has been the formula there for over twenty years and it works.

Leave it to Allen to figure out a way to get them to pop for a few more bucks to watch the pros. Heck, maybe it's part of their entry fee. :wink:

Stu, Pool needs to find a rich benefactor who can make the prize money interesting and them secure a television network to show the final matches each week. There are a myriad of cable TV networks that will work. High Stakes Poker was a hit show on the Travel Network! I think it lasted four or five seasons.
 
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Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I've never seen the so called "amateurs" as big pool fans. The people who come to watch the tournaments (and fill the stands) are true fans of the sport. Some play pool and some just like to watch good pool players. Most "league" (amateur) players that I've come in contact with don't even know who the top players are and could care less. ...
I have an example of this from Jay's LA 2001 Billiard Expo when it was at the hotel next to the Burbank Airport. There were a bunch of league players there in some kind of 8-ball competition. At the same time, Accu-Stats had a six-player round robin invitational 8-ball tournament because they were lacking any 8-ball events at the time. Bustamante, Immonen, Archer, Frank, Griffis, and Reyes.

I happened to come in before the TV matches started and there on the TV table practicing by himself was Efren Reyes. He was setting up tough run outs with clusters and then getting through them. All those 8-ball players in the building and there was only one person who wanted to watch arguably the best player in the world work on tough 8-ball patterns. And that single spectator doesn't even play 8-ball. And it was free to watch.
 

Cameron Smith

is kind of hungry...
Silver Member
I’m really sick of alternate break events. I barely watch rotation events anymore because of it. A race to 11 is sufficiently long enough that both players will get there chances. I hope this change isn’t because of the 9 pack this year.
 

Cardigan Kid

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It’s not too early for this announcement!
The International 9-Ball Open continues in 2020.​
See some details:
• October 25-31, 2020
• $500 Entry Fee
• $50,000 Added
• Alternate Breaks
• Races to 10, Double Elimination
• Single Elimination when down to 32 players
• Sheraton Waterside Norfolk Hotel, Norfolk, VA
• WPA Sanctioned
• 2020 BCA Hall of Fame Banquet

Comments welcome!

Thanks,

I’m interested in hearing your thoughts regarding the format change—more accurately the switch to alternate breaks and single elimination in the final 32.

Was this a step to create an “international standard” in the format for 9-ball? Or was this done to attract more players (maybe you’ve heard from them that they prefer this format the best)?
Nevertheless, I’m a huge supporter and look forward to watching.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
I’m interested in hearing your thoughts regarding the format change—more accurately the switch to alternate breaks and single elimination in the final 32.

Was this a step to create an “international standard” in the format for 9-ball? Or was this done to attract more players (maybe you’ve heard from them that they prefer this format the best)?
Nevertheless, I’m a huge supporter and look forward to watching.

Like you, I'll wait for Pat's comments, but I'll share my views.

The two stage event is not just the standard for all WPA sanctioned events but is also the format used by the Eurotour.

Having attended the two stage Matchroom-produced US Open 9-ball in April, I feel strongly that it's the best possible format for pool. The stage two "win or go home" matches are tense and electrifying and the fans enjoy them.

We get single elimination down the stretch of all of these seven events, all of which should be on anyone's list of the ten best premier pool events of the year worldwide.

World 9-ball Championships
World 10-ball Championships
China Open 9-ball
US Open 9-ball
All Japan Championships
World Pool Masters
World Cup of Pool

I think thirty two reaching Stage 2 is too many, however. Sixteen would be far better, and only sixteen reached Stage 2 at the US Open 9-ball in the field of 256. Stage 2 should be for the truly elite, as it was at the US Open 9-ball.

To me, the only truly first rate event that does not, and cannot because of field size, use single elimination down the stretch, is the Derby City Classic.

Good to see American event producers/promoters waking up and recognizing what the WPA, the Eurotour and Matchroom determined long ago: Single elimination in the late stages of an event make it far more exciting!

Double elimination is starting to disappear in top international level pro pool. For this fan, it's about time.
 

Nostroke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Like you, I'll wait for Pat's comments, but I'll share my views.

The two stage event is not just the standard for all WPA sanctioned events but is also the format used by the Eurotour.

Having attended the two stage Matchroom-produced US Open 9-ball in April, I feel strongly that it's the best possible format for pool. The stage two "win or go home" matches are tense and electrifying and the fans enjoy them.

We get single elimination down the stretch of all of these seven events, all of which should be on anyone's list of the ten best premier pool events of the year worldwide.

World 9-ball Championships
World 10-ball Championships
China Open 9-ball
US Open 9-ball
All Japan Championships
World Pool Masters
World Cup of Pool

I think thirty two reaching Stage 2 is too many, however. Sixteen would be far better, and only sixteen reached Stage 2 at the US Open 9-ball in the field of 256. Stage 2 should be for the truly elite, as it was at the US Open 9-ball.

To me, the only truly first rate event that does not, and cannot because of field size, use single elimination down the stretch, is the Derby City Classic.

Good to see American event producers/promoters waking up and recognizing what the WPA, the Eurotour and Matchroom determined long ago: Single elimination in the late stages of an event make it far more exciting!

Double elimination is starting to disappear in top international level pro pool. For this fan, it's about time.

Is Turning Stone not 'first rate"? or have they switched to single elimination now?
 

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Not more than the DCC IMO.-not listed but mentioned.

It might be worth considering there are 2 Turning Stone Classics each year, and only one of the other events that have been mentioned.

Also, 10 out of the last 13 Turning Stone Classics have been won by the same 2 players, SVB and Shaw. I think that speaks volumes about the quality of the field and lack of international superstars.
 

Gate City

Owner of Gate City Billia
Silver Member
I am the owner of Gate City Billiards Club in Greensboro, NC. I used to run a Qualifier tournament here until the entry fee went up to $1,000. Now that it's back down to $500, I will probably start doing one again. Will this be open to the first 196, or is there any chance that if I run one, the spot won't be available?
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Is Turning Stone not 'first rate"? or have they switched to single elimination now?


I noted that double elimination is "starting to disappear" and not that it's gone.

Turning Stone is one of the best events on the American pool calendar, but it does not typically draw an internationally diverse elite field. It is the best regional tour event in America, but should not be confused with the four WPA Sanctioned events now contested on American soil (World 10-ball Championship, WPA Players Championship, US Open 9-ball Championship, International 9-ball Championship), all of which produce much stronger fields and greater theater than what we get at Turning Stone.

The matter of whether the regional tours will adopt the two stage format now coming into vogue even in America is not something I've given much thought.
 

Cardigan Kid

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It might be worth considering there are 2 Turning Stone Classics each year, and only one of the other events that have been mentioned.

Also, 10 out of the last 13 Turning Stone Classics have been won by the same 2 players, SVB and Shaw. I think that speaks volumes about the quality of the field and lack of international superstars.

Good observation...But I would ask, how many of those 10 did they win from the one loss side? The last I checked, turning stone has a great list of champions that battled back from the one loss side...how many of those losses were in the final 32 or 16 I do not know.

I will be a fan of the one loss format of turning stone because of the redemption angle to the narrative of that particular tournament. But I also understand why the international major tournaments go with the direct elimination format and that Pat is now following suit.

On a good note, the direct elimination in the final 32 might lead to more matches getting streamed/locked in on video for future years of enjoyment.
 

Positively Ralf

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm not a big fan of rotation pool but I'm a fan of winner breaks in those tournament. It keeps my attention longer if someone has strung together 3-4 racks just to see how much longer it can go.

on a side note, if the majority of amateur players do not know or care about the pro game, let them. They do not need to go into a pool hall and be questioned if their enjoyment of the games they play have any correlation to the pros who play it for their living. That's just my 2 cents.
 

Eric.

Club a member
Silver Member
As a fifty three year veteran of the pool halls, .

Damn, what were you, 5 years old when you started hustling games??

Still, I'd offer Super Billiards Expo as a counterexample, for it is the thousands of amateur bar table players in attendance who are the nucleus of the fan base at the pro events staged there. That has been the formula there for over twenty years and it works.

Yep, totally agree. From what I've seen, that sounds about right. In fact, the amateur poolplayers at SBE might be a fair microcosm of amateur pool players in general. While the majority are more casual but dedicated poolplayers, there is a smaller percentage (10-15%?) that seem to be in tune with more than just leagues. That group tends to play tournaments outside of league, will travel to play, know who the top players are and attend some major events as a spectator or player/spectator.


Eric
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
I am the owner of Gate City Billiards Club in Greensboro, NC. I used to run a Qualifier tournament here until the entry fee went up to $1,000. Now that it's back down to $500, I will probably start doing one again. Will this be open to the first 196, or is there any chance that if I run one, the spot won't be available?

I would think buying the spot in advance solves the problem.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Damn, what were you, 5 years old when you started hustling games??

You're too kind. I've been going to the pool halls since I was 8, but back then it was only with my father and I didn't play. My first play came in February of 1969, at the age of ten, so I'm playing for nearly 51 years.
 

Marc

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
It puzzled me that when you had your chance you did not change it to 10-Ball. That is The game.
And no more controversy about the break shot.

Instead of alternate break I would shorten the races of the first rounds. This gives the short stops a better chance to beat the top Pros

If you keep it 9-ball and a WPA event, and specially if the 9 is rack on the spot (I know I have said this to you before) let everyone break from anywhere!

There isnt one game of pool that doesnt let you break the balls with ball in hand behind the head string.

All the other pool games 8-Ball, 10-Ball, 14.1, One Pocket, Banks you may break from anywhere

All the biggest 9-ball events in both Europe and the world is break from anywhere behind the head string

WPA 9-Ball rules also say this.

WPA rules should be enforced.

Break box is awful
Illegal breaks are awful also

Alternate is the norm in many WPA and most prestigious events
But the US Open 9-Ball remains winner breaks how it should be traditionally

I give you an example why 9-Ball should always be winner break:
A bad start by a good player (cue ball kissed in the pocket after a perfect break), a 7, 8 or 9-ball rattle from being cold, and all of a sudden a player who's favorite in a match could be down 0-2 or 1-3 pretty quick.

It is much harder to come back with alternate break than it is with winner break.
With winner break, a player is always in the match.

Lot more spectacular to see a package to come back with skillful break and runs than depending on a players mistakes or the luck of a break shot to come back

I do understand though that the shorter the the race the more unfair winner break would be cuz packages to start a set are hard to answer and a player could lose without doing much wrong
(this year we saw a few sets that went this way: Orcullo and Chang losing to Aranas by wide margins)

But you see one of the most memorable sets this year was SVB coming back to hill-hill on that dark horse austrian player
(we woulda never seen that come back if the format woulda been alternate break)

What is wrong with starting the tournament with races to 9 alternate break and then as the races go to 11 and 13 implement the winner break format?

I mantain Grady Mathews was absolutely right Race to 21 should be the norm for professional 9-ball tournaments

Anything less is not enough distance.

21 game race may be unrealistic, but if you are thinking of doing Last32 Single elimination it would be nice to see the races go to 15 or so
And a final match to 17 like the old Martchroom world Championship finals were for a few years

I say keep it as close as possible to how the game of 9-ball has always been and this way you will keep the excitement going

Also I never liked shot clock on TV table, but all the time in the world to slow play someone in the other tables

I dont think it would be that expensive to get clocks timers (in tablets operated like chess clocks) and have every player have and control his own time as best he sees fit

Like in Chess.

Don't think speed chess here though.
They use the same type of clock in speed chess as in a regular tournament regular game.

In regular competition chess
I forgot what it was I think you had 2 hours to reach your 40th move.

Well in pool in a race to 9 a player shouldnt need more than 45 min (each player)

That lets a player distribute his time as he pleases

And guarantees that within an hour and a half that match is over
If a player runs out of time he loses the match (but this shouldnt ever happen)
yet it would make sure players play at a good pace

In some country in Europe where 3-Cushion billiards is popular
I forgot if its Belgium, or around there, maybe Denmark, they use the chess type clocks to make sure the old players do not fall asleep on the tables and the matches proceed as scheduled and stay on time

there are shots that demand more times than others
with this system you arrange the time you want to dedicate to each shot

It amazes me no organizer has thought of this yet




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Swighey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Double elimination is preferable to round robin as a qualifying/stage 1/preliminary/whatever-you-want-to-call-it competition because there are no dead games yet you still guarantee the “dead money” to believe (often genuinely) that they have a chance of making it deep if they run good and find their A game.

There is absolutely no reason to stick with double elimination at the deep end of a tournament. No need to level the playing field. Single elimination pressure is the ultimate test (as is alternate break - counter intuitive to some I realise). Whether this is last 2,4,8,16 or 32 depends on the size and the practicalities of the tournament. Ideally, imo, the single elimination stage should have longer races (even if it’s only one rack) but this is trivial because winning a finals stage do or die match is much bigger than winning when you have a second chance.

The International Open is evolving and evolving well. Let’s see how it goes and if there are any lessons to be learned for 2021.
 
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