Intentional foul question

3andstop · Mar 10, 2010

Although this is done all the time, I honestly don't know if there is a rule to prohibit it, or if it is simply a foul.

In this example, the rack is mostly together with a few balls exposed.

When you are exchanging intentional fouls with your opponent, and he is on the first foul, and he has just left you and 1/8 or 1/4 inch away from the crotch of two balls behind the rack. There are a few balls open but just barely hidden because you are so close to the two balls in the rack.

Any mistake on your part, and your opponent will be able to see one of these exposed balls. Is this move acceptable?

You push lightly and hold for a second or two, your cue tip against the CB as you touch it to the crotch of the two balls, assuring the CB freezes to them.

Hard to explain, but I think you know what I mean. It's obviously not a stroke, or a touch to the CB, but rather a push and hold.

Anyone know if technically this is acceptable as an intentional foul, or if it is some type of unsportsmanlike conduct penalty? Any thoughts.

CueTable Help

14-1StraightMan · Mar 10, 2010

Not sure

I have observed "Old School" players do what you are asking and I have been taught from them that it is legal to do.
Most of the time it comes up if your opponent plays a safe against the rack and you do not have a good way to shoot out from that spot. So, you should push into the rack taking an intentional foul just moving balls slightly. When your opponent takes his intentional foul. Then you should have a better angle to play a safe out of that spot.
Now, on the other hand. Rules have changed over the years and I would not want to tell you the wrong answer. So hopefully, we can get some one to answer that knows the rules inside out.

stevekur1 · Mar 10, 2010

the shot is pretty standard to take an intentional foul like this and it is a 1 point penalty. The only thing i am unsure of is the fact that the duration the tip is left on the CB.
it seems to me like the shooter left the tip on the ball to ensure that the CB stayed in that position. so like i said i dont know what the ruling would be there.

Steve

14-1StraightMan · Mar 10, 2010

Yes

stevekur1 said:
the shot is pretty standard to take an intentional foul like this and it is a 1 point penalty. The only thing i am unsure of is the fact that the duration the tip is left on the CB.
it seems to me like the shooter left the tip on the ball to ensure that the CB stayed in that position. so like i said i dont know what the ruling would be there.

Steve

Steve: yes I think you are right about the player leaving his tip on the cue ball as to control it in that position. I just read his question again and that is what he is asking. I would think that might fall under: UnSportsmen Like Conduct"

mullyman · Mar 10, 2010

14-1StraightMan said:
Steve: yes I think you are right about the player leaving his tip on the cue ball as to control it in that position. I just read his question again and that is what he is asking. I would think that might fall under: UnSportsmen Like Conduct"

Yeah, I think it would too. I know I'd be hotter than a firecracker if someone did that to me. Nudging it up against those balls is one thing but intentionally leaving the cue there to make sure it stays against those balls seems, at least to me, that something more than just minus one is in order.
MULLY

Vahmurka · Mar 10, 2010

intentional fouls are legal - as long as a player utilizes a stroking cue action on the cue ball. That said, if one needs a cue ball to remain where it lies, he needs to hold his cue vertically and strike on top of the whitey. If one decides to repeat Efren's move (I believe it was him) when he just tapped the cue ball with the side of his cue tip - that falls under
6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct
(b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;

mullyman · Mar 10, 2010

Vahmurka said:
intentional fouls are legal - as long as a player utilizes a stroking cue action on the cue ball. That said, if one needs a cue ball to remain where it lies, he needs to hold his cue vertically and strike on top of the whitey. If one decides to repeat Efren's move (I believe it was him) when he just tapped the cue ball with the side of his cue tip - that falls under
6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct
(b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;

I think you're reading his situation the wrong way. He's wondering about putting the cue tip up against the ball, nudging it forward with the tip of the cue staying in contact with the cueball the entire time, actually pushing it forward, and then having a moment of contact at the end almost like holding the cue ball in place.
MULLY

3andstop · Mar 10, 2010

mullyman said:
I think you're reading his situation the wrong way. He's wondering about putting the cue tip up against the ball, nudging it forward with the tip of the cue staying in contact with the cueball the entire time, actually pushing it forward, and then having a moment of contact at the end almost like holding the cue ball in place.
MULLY

Exactly Mully. Perhaps Bob Jewett can offer an answer. Like I said, this isn't an uncommon thing to see, but it sure would be nice to know if it is merely a foul or unsportsmanlike conduct.

Vahmurka · Mar 10, 2010

yes it was hard for me foreigner to understand it completely and after your description MULLY I feel lost even more

But I gave a ruling anyway, I was hoping you native English speaking people could decide if such move you are talking about is allowed?

alphadog · Mar 10, 2010

If I were a betting man,I would give odds on the ruling of -6.16 The shot as desribed is not a "normal stroke of the cue".To do so intentionally is unsportsman like conduct.

mullyman · Mar 10, 2010

alphadog said:
If I were a betting man,I would give odds on the ruling of -6.16 The shot as desribed is not a "normal stroke of the cue".To do so intentionally is unsportsman like conduct.

Yeah, I'm guessing the "unsportsmanlike conduct" too. Only because not only is it an intentional foul, which is fair play, but it's moved beyond an intentional foul to flat out cheating, for lack of a better term. You'd have to be a real dick to pull a move like that. That would be like playing one pocket, leaving the cue ball up on the rail on the left side of the table, sweeping all the balls over to the right side of the table and then expecting to just spot one up. It sounds that bad to me at least.

alphadog · Mar 10, 2010

mullyman said:
Yeah, I'm guessing the "unsportsmanlike conduct" too. Only because not only is it an intentional foul, which is fair play, but it's moved beyond an intentional foul to flat out cheating, for lack of a better term. You'd have to be a real dick to pull a move like that. That would be like playing one pocket, leaving the cue ball up on the rail on the left side of the table, sweeping all the balls over to the right side of the table and then expecting to just spot one up. It sounds that bad to me at least.

MullyMan, I didn't know you had seen me play!:grin:

Hank · Mar 10, 2010

STicking it

Some players will push the cue ball to the inside of pocket rail to freeze you ,is that shot leagal?

mullyman · Mar 10, 2010

Hank said:
Some players will push the cue ball to the inside of pocket rail to freeze you ,is that shot leagal?

I'd say it's legal and fair if they actually nudged the ball and didn't push it in there with the tip contacting the ball the entire time. If someone can nudge a ball behind the tit with a legal hit on the cue ball I see nothing wrong with it at all. Pushing it though......if pushing it is OK then they might as well allow them to just pick it up with their fingers and set it in there.
MULLY

CreeDo · Mar 11, 2010

Any time you use a non-legal stroke i'm fairly sure it's an intentional and unsportsmanlike conduct. What efren did was the lift-brush foul, where you let the tip rest below the cue ball and then lift it up, letting the tip (or in efren's case, the ferrule) barely graze whitey on the way up.

A push shot is basically a double hit. A single hit during an intentional foul is one thing but an intentional double hit seems unsportsmanlike.. and it's not because the opponent's being a dick to you, that's his job as an opponent. It's because he's using a nonlegal stroke on top of a 2nd nothing-hit-a-rail foul.

3andstop · Mar 11, 2010

At the risk of getting off track, (cause I'd love to know the official ruling on my first question) There is a variation of this same situation that I equally wonder about.

It is when the player does legally "touch" the CB to nestle it into the crotch of the two balls so lightly that it doesn't quite get there, and then almost instinctually, re-taps it a second time very quickly to make it reach.

It's like getting two tries at it, albeit perhaps unintentionally.

14-1StraightMan · Mar 11, 2010

Good question

3andstop said:
At the risk of getting off track, (cause I'd love to know the official ruling on my first question) There is a variation of this same situation that I equally wonder about.

It is when the player does legally "touch" the CB to nestle it into the crotch of the two balls so lightly that it doesn't quite get there, and then almost instinctually, re-taps it a second time very quickly to make it reach.

It's like getting two tries at it, albeit perhaps unintentionally.

Once again I would say that would fall under "UnSportsmen Like Conduct"

SpiderWebComm · Mar 11, 2010

I made a thread about this some time ago. Here's the deal: TECHNICALLY, it's unsportsmanlike conduct. REALISTICALLY, it's never called as everyone does it and looks at you like you're some nit calling a BS foul. I observed a HANDFUL of pros do this in the world 14.1 and nothing was ever called on them. Now, whether or not the opponent didn't know the rules or the refs weren't watching - who knows. The point I'm trying to make is this happens SO often, it's basically part of the game. People "push" into the rack ALLLLLLL the time to make new tangents, kiss to balls, etc. As a matter of fact, it's so common - it ought to be sportsman-like-conduct, imo.

All I know is I called this on someone months ago and an entire poolroom of old-time players thought I was CRAZY and "scared to death" to even call something so absurd.

So, while the technical answer has already been discussed here--- the practical real-life answer is: it's fine and the best defense of this is to learn to do it better than the other guy, imo.

Dave

Bob Jewett · Mar 11, 2010

3andstop said:
Although this is done all the time, I honestly don't know if there is a rule to prohibit it, or if it is simply a foul. ...

That's a stroke that is intentionally an illegal technique. I think that's unsportsmanlike conduct. I can hear, "Oh, well, I just pushed/manipulated a little." At that point, you get into a matter of degree.

Suppose you are on no fouls, your opponent is on two, you are against the rack and there is a ball nearly in the jaws of every pocket you can't see. Instead of taking a chance that your opponent might thin a ball and get back to the side of the rack, or even kick a ball in, you push the cue ball three inches into the rack, take a right turn, then a left turn, and freeze him to three balls with the cue ball in the middle of the rack. If we further suppose that I'm the referee, you lose the game at that point.

I realize that the old-timers frequently manipulated the balls with one- to two-inch multiple hit shots, but I think it should not be allowed. The hit when nudging to a close ball should be as short and brief as possible, so that there is some chance that you will not double hit.

I think if you intentionally play any double hit, it is unsportsmanlike conduct.

CreeDo · Mar 11, 2010

I tried looking up the rules and didn't find much meat in the BCA rules. Or are those not the popular ones to go by these days?

The only specifics on an intentional foul is when a player catches, touches, or interferes with a ball as it travels towards the pocket or the rack area. Would touching it with the stick (aka a double hit) as it travels towards the rack count, under that wording?

Intentional foul question

Focus

High Run 127

The "COMMISH"

High Run 127

Hung Like a Gnat!

...and I get all da rolls

Hung Like a Gnat!

Focus

...and I get all da rolls

AzB Silver Member

Hung Like a Gnat!

AzB Silver Member

AzB Silver Member

Hung Like a Gnat!

Fargo Rating 597

Focus

High Run 127

HelpImBeingOppressed

AZB Osmium Member

Fargo Rating 597