Agreed. I considered this possibility, too, but thought this type of contact would likely be "imperceptible" to a typical referee and a foul would not be called.
Efren foul call - Was Ref correct?
- Thread starter iusedtoberich
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Agreed. I considered this possibility, too, but thought this type of contact would likely be "imperceptible" to a typical referee and a foul would not be called.
The path of the cueball suggests to me that the top ball was hit first.
Freddie <~~~ whatever the top ball is
Did you watch the whole video?
A few racks earlier Efren jumped the 1 ball on the floor and the ref said it wasn't a foul. Justice is what Keith was thinking.
The speed of the 5 tells me it was hit first....if the cueball caromed off the 8 onto the 5 the speed of the 5 would not be as fast. He cut the crap out that ball though...
I find it fascinating there have been such a wide range of answers to this hit. Good discussion for sure.
Back then, an object ball off the table was not a foul.
Only the cue ball off the table was a foul.
...a disgusting rule, IMO.
I would not call a bad hit hit on Efren's shot, as a referee or an opponent.
Any doubt should be in the shooter's favor, and it had to be a secondary
hit that sent the ball on that angle.
I am thinking exactly opposite. If he cut the crap out of the ball (feathered), it would have barely moved; if he caromed off the 4-ball, the 5-ball would have had some speed to it.
And if he caromed off the "8," it would be most definitely a foul. I assume it's the 4-ball.
The speed and direction of the nearer ball show that it was hit by the cue ball after the cue ball hit the four (not 8, as has been pointed out). Otherwise the cut would have been a lot more than 90 degrees.
The question that remains is whether the cue ball also feathered the five ball first. No one here can answer that question based on the video.
Well, yes, but if he had barely, barely, ever so slightly by a few microns feathered the five ball, he would have gotten the action in the video.
Agreed ... not easy to recreate, but definitely possible. If people want to see a super-slow-motion shot almost exactly like the Efren shot, it can be found at the 1:52 point in the following video:
NV B.54 - How to determine which ball was hit first by watching the object balls, with Bob Jewett
Many examples of how to use understanding of tangent lines to predict which ball was hit first can be found in the following videos:
NV B.53 - How to determine which ball was hit first by watching the cue ball, with Bob Jewett
NV B.54 - How to determine which ball was hit first by watching the object balls, with Bob Jewett
NV B.63 - Instruction for pool rules quiz - part 5: determining which ball is hit first
I wish these videos were required viewing for all refs and all players. If this were the case, much fewer arguments and disagreements would occur.
Agreed, as shown in NV B.54.
Personally, I think most refs would have called a foul, based on the direction the 5 ball headed; however, in situations like this where it is too close to tell, the call should probably be a legal hit, in favor of the shooter.
Regards,
Dave