SVB longest reign in US since Mosconi?

Shane came onto the pool scene nationally in 2003 era. I remember it well because they put him on the TV table with Keith at the Open. I had never heard of the kid before, and neither had Keith, yet the bookmakers made Keith a game underdog. Shane has a chaperone at the Open that year, I think, an older guy traveling with him.

He then played a lot of national events and soon took off on the international pool tournament trail. Before this era, Americans didn't travel to other lands very often like they do today. Most of the players came here to the USA from other lands.

Today things are different. Shane is still on a streak of greatness, no question about it. Has he reached Earl's longevity yet? I don't think so, but as far as greatness, he is great.

Maniac said:

Not even the "Best American Pool Player in the Past 12 Years" thread???

Wow, you must really dislike Mr. Van Boening.

And, to be fair, he's probably been the best player in the world over that space of time.

Maniac

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Actually it's really the opposite...
I don't like how every time he wins a big tourney, which happens pretty often, people take to this forum and use trivial topic threads to downplay his achievements. Wait long enough it's coming on this one too and I am in no way saying that was this threads intent, but, it's coming...

In my opinion, SVB's not just the best American player of the past decade, he's the best American player there has ever been and the margin is actually widening. Oh, and guess the news, he's barely about half way through his career...

Well, SVB sure does have a lot of career wins....

Hopefully he can add a World Championship to the list; but if not, he's still had a great career.

westcoast said:

Shane has been the best player in the US since around 2007. Has anybody since Mosconi been the unquestioned best player in the US for a longer time period?

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Definitely not!

That said, it's not right to mention Shane and Mosconi in the same sentence when Willie won fifteen world championships (back when straight pool decided the world champion) during 1940-57 and Shane has never won the World 9-ball Championship.

svb vs willie

sjm said:

Definitely not!

That said, it's not right to mention Shane and Mosconi in the same sentence when Willie won fifteen world championships (back when straight pool decided the world champion) during 1940-57 and Shane has never won the World 9-ball Championship.

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Ha, we'll have to talk this one over at DCC Stu!

Big differences between the two. Many of the world championships that Willie won were in round robin formats where they would play long blocks of straight pool against groups of many other players. Alternatively there were championships decided where the contender would play a long block to over 1,000 points. In his autobiography Willie talked about how much he hated winning the title in that fashion and then losing the title when the BCA decided to do a one game finals so someone else is crowned with one good run. The world championships today, while extremely coveted and prestigious, don't define the best player in the world anymore than they did in the years someone beat Willie one game of straight pool. If we want to keep score that way we can, but we can't equate the two formats.

In addition pool was strictly a US game and Willie was competing against the same group with only a few real challengers. The US Open 9 ball today is far more international than the world championships of the 40s and 50s.

I'm not making the case that SVB is better or worse than Willie, only that contrasting the number of world championships they have both won isn't a fair measuring stick and for the reasons above no one will come close to duplicating WM's world titles.

Personally I think SVB joins the ranks of Reyes with players that not only dominated the competition, but that transformed the game. Many players have gotten to the top, and a few have even dominated for a stretch of years. But only Reyes and SVB left the game looking differently after they exerted their influence. SVB made his opponents look silly in 2007-2012. Suddenly in the 2015-2020 range we have a slew of global players that break like machines and seem to shoot as good as him (although lacking a little in experience). This isn't a coincidence. All of the players that were up and coming teenagers in 2007-2012 used him as a template and the result is that pool is tougher now than ever before.

I can't give him all the credit for this, pool would've evolved without SVB just like kicking would've evolved without Reyes in the 80s and 90s. But I believe SVB to be one of the most influential pool players of all time. I'm a huge fan of Varner, Hall, Strickland, Alex, and the rest of the greats, but I don't see the impact they had on pool the same way. Add that to his dominance domestically and globally and you'll understand why SVB is on my Mt Rushmore next to Reyes.

Tin Man said:

Ha, we'll have to talk this one over at DCC Stu!

Big differences between the two. Many of the world championships that Willie won were in round robin formats where they would play long blocks of straight pool against groups of many other players. Alternatively there were championships decided where the contender would play a long block to over 1,000 points. In his autobiography Willie talked about how much he hated winning the title in that fashion and then losing the title when the BCA decided to do a one game finals so someone else is crowned with one good run. The world championships today, while extremely coveted and prestigious, don't define the best player in the world anymore than they did in the years someone beat Willie one game of straight pool. If we want to keep score that way we can, but we can't equate the two formats.

In addition pool was strictly a US game and Willie was competing against the same group with only a few real challengers. The US Open 9 ball today is far more international than the world championships of the 40s and 50s.

I'm not making the case that SVB is better or worse than Willie, only that contrasting the number of world championships they have both won isn't a fair measuring stick and for the reasons above no one will come close to duplicating WM's world titles.

Personally I think SVB joins the ranks of Reyes with players that not only dominated the competition, but that transformed the game. Many players have gotten to the top, and a few have even dominated for a stretch of years. But only Reyes and SVB left the game looking differently after they exerted their influence. SVB made his opponents look silly in 2007-2012. Suddenly in the 2015-2020 range we have a slew of global players that break like machines and seem to shoot as good as him (although lacking a little in experience). This isn't a coincidence. All of the players that were up and coming teenagers in 2007-2012 used him as a template and the result is that pool is tougher now than ever before.

I can't give him all the credit for this, pool would've evolved without SVB just like kicking would've evolved without Reyes in the 80s and 90s. But I believe SVB to be one of the most influential pool players of all time. I'm a huge fan of Varner, Hall, Strickland, Alex, and the rest of the greats, but I don't see the impact they had on pool the same way. Add that to his dominance domestically and globally and you'll understand why SVB is on my Mt Rushmore next to Reyes.

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Some of what you say here is valid, but I don't agree with much of this post. Still, I am happy to defer discussion for a couple of weeks until I see you at the Derby.

sjm said:

Definitely not!

That said, it's not right to mention Shane and Mosconi in the same sentence when Willie won fifteen world championships (back when straight pool decided the world champion) during 1940-57 and Shane has never won the World 9-ball Championship.

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I respectively disagree. Far too many points to make here. Winning is winning, no disagreement there.

Tin Man said:

The world championships today, while extremely coveted and prestigious, don't define the best player in the world anymore than they did in the years someone beat Willie one game of straight pool. If we want to keep score that way we can, but we can't equate the two formats.

In addition pool was strictly a US game and Willie was competing against the same group with only a few real challengers. The US Open 9 ball today is far more international than the world championships of the 40s and 50s.

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It's about time somebody said this. Especially the first paragraph. A lot of "World Champions" frequently get their arses handed to them in later tournaments. The "best pool player" tag only goes as far as the next big tournament.

And I'm not going to argue my opinion of what I quoted here with anyone, so just get that out of your head right now. :grin:

Maniac

Tin Man said:

Ha, we'll have to talk this one over at DCC Stu!

I can't give him all the credit for this, pool would've evolved without SVB just like kicking would've evolved without Reyes in the 80s and 90s. But I believe SVB to be one of the most influential pool players of all time. I'm a huge fan of Varner, Hall, Strickland, Alex, and the rest of the greats, but I don't see the impact they had on pool the same way. Add that to his dominance domestically and globally and you'll understand why SVB is on my Mt Rushmore next to Reyes.

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Please keep posting and writing, I enjoy your take on things and your writing in regards to all aspects of pool is top notch-worthy of billiards digest.

sjm said:

Some of what you say here is valid, but I don't agree with much of this post. Still, I am happy to defer discussion for a couple of weeks until I see you at the Derby.

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Now this is a conversation that needs to be transcribed so we all can enjoy it.

How about an idea for Mr. Panozzo, a two part article written by both of you—the case for and against SVB vs Mosconi.
Let the learning begin!

I appreciate that SJM and I can feel differently but still respect each other's views and rights to those views. Some of our supporting points are factual but ultimately we're supporting our respective opinions.

SJM looks to tournaments and specifically the world championship as the ultimate in pool, and the acquisition of those titles as the measure of a player. This makes a lot of sense and in some ways you'd almost have to wonder how anyone could feel differently.

But for me tournaments and titles are just tools we invent to measure the greatness of our pool players. Those tools should serve that job. And when those tools don't do the job they aren't working right.

So for SJM, SVB's lack of winning a World Championship shows that he isn't a generational talent that has dominated pool, because he lacks that on his resume. Whereas for me I say if a player as transcendent as SVB hasn't won a world title then it's because the format is either broken or wasn't designed to tell us who's the best. It's almost a case of which do I believe, the world championship title or my own eyes that have seen what SVB has done in the pool world.

One thing I'll say is I've come to appreciate Stu's views on the importance of using formal and agreed on titles as a measure, otherwise we're left with a bunch of keyboard warriors spouting unsupported opinions. He's persuaded me that short sets, single elimination titles, and point rankings matter. I just wish the tournament formats produced ranking results that more closely aligned to skill sets demonstrated by Fargo Rate. To me FR is like the ultimate round robin that shows exactly where people stack up. Unfortunately it doesn't measure who can handle the heat of pressure in clutch situation, so there you go. You can either have pressure shots with lots of variance, or you can have low variance formats without much suspense. I suppose a mix of good is best, and we are just expressing our opinions on how much of a mix we prefer.

Quit making so much sense TinMan!

PoolBum said:

Johnny was the Billiards Digest Player of the Decade for the 1990's, so I wouldn't say Earl was the "unquestioned best player in the U.S." for that time.

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During the 90s....Johnny won 92 and the 97 WPA 9 ball WC....1999 US OPEN

Earl 90s

WPA WC - 4
US Opens - 3

World pool masters 1

i always figured Earl just pissed someone off so they picked johnny cotton picker lol

greyghost said:

Earl 90s

WPA WC - 4
US Opens - 3

World pool masters 1

i always figured Earl just pissed someone off so they picked johnny cotton picker lol

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Earl's 3 WPA World 9-Ball Championships were in 1990, 1991, and 2002.

His 5 US Open 9-Ball Championships were in 1984, 1987, 1993, 1997, and 2000.

So he had 4 wins in those events in the 1990's vs. Archer's 3.

It’s threads like these that make getting on a plane every week considerably easier. Especially when a world class player and a world class pool nut/historian/pool junkie chime in. I can only take so much of the keyboard warriors with an agenda. Thank you for that.

Shane may be the best USA player ever. The competition that Shane faces is much, much deeper than that the previous era's faced. It would be difficult to know who was the greatest USA player. I have always maintained that Shane's 5 US opens were more difficult than the 5 that Earl won. Notice I categorize Shane as possibly the greatest USA player. For me Efren will always be the GOAT!

greyghost said:

During the 90s....Johnny won 92 and the 97 WPA 9 ball WC....1999 US OPEN

Earl 90s

WPA WC - 4
US Opens - 3

World pool masters 1

i always figured Earl just pissed someone off so they picked johnny cotton picker lol

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I always thought JA was the GOAT, but once the divorce yrs surfaced, his play/game/life changed quite a bit. It's good too see him back on the horse. He's a steady eddie, with a good head on his shoulders. To see him perform at times with great young players of today, is quite enjoyable. JA has always had that ''something'' that made his game simple, mature and Effective. I remember Buddy Hall is his prime saying how good this kid played. He didn't like hi$$$$ action in 88-90 and on. Johnnie didn't miss much.

Love Earl Strickland and Efren. I am now a SVB fan.