Is there a way to estimate your APA skill level

Tom1234 · Jan 17, 2020

SL7's can range from barely SL7 to semi pro. SL2's can be decent or barely know one end of the cue from the other.

- Jeff in Frisco[/QUOTE]

This is where I have the biggest problem with APA skill levels. I’m a SL7 in our league, but due to several health issues I can no longer play at that level. SL4s and 5s regularly beat me now. Do innings really have that much influence on your SL? A SL5 recently beat me 3-1 in a handful of innings. I had 4-5 balls still on the table!!! Those innings were his, not mine. Similar situation with a SL4 the week before. BTW, neither of these players hcp went up, mine did not drop!! I point this out because my SL was dropped last year to a 6, but raised back in 2 weeks after I beat a couple of 5s. Why the discrepancy? One last thing for APA to consider-if a player’s SL is a 7, but can’t win at least 50% of their matches against other SL7s, how can they be a 7? My record against other 7s (since I was raised to a 7) is 2 out of 18! If I can’t beat a 7, someone explain how I can be a 7.

Maniac · Jan 17, 2020

Trying to figure out the how's and why's of ones APA handicap will drive a person nuts.

First off...it can and does vary from area to area. I would have to put that reason solely in the hands of the league operators.

Second...you can clearly see discrepancies within your own league division, with some higher skill leveled players being not as good as some lower skill level players. You try to figure out how their SL3 can win two games in 4 innings and your SL5 rarely does it. You want to think that that player just had a really good night, but then you notice the next time you play that team it happens all over again. I myself have spotted players games in 8-ball that after a few racks, I was wondering why he wasn't spotting me a game or two. It just happens and it'll drive you crazy trying to figure it out.

Let me give you an example of something that happens on one of my teams. My wife played as a SL3 (8-ball) in one APA area, with a consistent winning percentage between 50%-60% (lifetime winning percentage at @ 53%. So, we move over to a neighboring APA area and when we sign up on an 8-ball team there, the first night we show up for league she's rated a SL4. After the first night she got beat pretty soundly by a SL3, I messaged the LO (that I personally know very well) and asked her why, after my wife had been playing as @ a 50-ish% winner in the years she played in the other area, why she was moved up to a SL4 in her area. She moved her back down to a three the next week where she went back to her normal 50-ish% winning trend. Then, four or five weeks later she had one of those nights where she shot well and beat a SL5, averaging around 4 innings a game. She was back up to a SL4 the next week and has been there for about 9 weeks now, winning about 25% of her matches (always against SL2's and 3's).

When she beat the SL5 that night, what the scoresheet didn't/couldn't show was that at hill-hill, my wife was down to the 8-ball and her opponent had one ball before the 8 and was shooting a fairly easy out. But he scratched on his shot at the last object ball and with ball-in-hand my wife easily sank the 8 for the win. So basically, my wife didn't so much win that match...her opponent just flat lost it on an easy out. But, it caused her skill level to go up. I can't help but wonder if she'd still be a SL3 if her opponent would have gotten out (like he should have) and won that match?

On the other end of the spectrum, we have a young man that was a SL2 (9-ball) the session before last. He is about as bad a player as a SL2 can be, often missing BIH shots and other short, straight-in shots. No clue about cue ball positioning and shoots everything @ 90 mph. About halfway through the session, he has a spell where he wins three matches in a row (against other SL2's and maybe one SL1). He gets moved up to a SL3. He proceeds to lose his last three matches of that session, goes 0-9 in the last session, and has already lost his only match of this session...and he's still a SL3. So...0 for his last thirteen matches.

Go figure......trust me, you can't.

As for me, I last played 8-ball in the other area as a SL6 for a long time. I just started last week in our new area, and when I added myself to the roster last week I marked down that I was a SL6. Last night we get to the bar/hall and the scoresheet has me down as a SL5. I just said screw it, whatever that piece of paper says we are from now on is what we will play as, no matter how far off it is. So I play a SL6 last night and win four straight in eleven innings (with three defensive shots and a break-and-run).
I felt bad for my opponent, but that's on the APA, whether it's the national office or the LO. I bet I'll be back to a SL6 next week, don't y'all think?

Anyway, the point of my lengthy post is to show a few examples of how absurd APA handicapping can be. It is far more rampant than these few examples illustrate. It is obviously not a perfect system...not even close. My best advice would be to just show up, do not be concerned about what your skill level is, shoot balls in the pockets until one of the scorekeepers yells "MATCH", and try to have some fun.

By all means....don't try to make sense of it all.

Maniac

WoodyMPW · Jan 17, 2020

Someone post the Bud Light scoring system again. Who you play does not matter.

justadub · Jan 17, 2020

hang-the-9 said:
Yep, you are rare, and so is a team that does not suggest you sandbag. Half the talk I hear during league nights is a team discussing how many matches they need to lose to keep the players from going up. The other half is who is buying the round and what drinks to order. There is a 0.5% time for practice and where they talk about how to get better to win more.

My team didn't/doesn't sandbag, and we went. Played five or six matches out there, and I didn't observe any players on the teams that we played that I felt were out of line. One might have been on the bubble, in my opinion, but not way out of whack.

We've had others from our division go before, as well, and they don't sandbag. If they do, they're awful at it. I play them two times a week, and have for a decade. Got a pretty good idea how they play.

Are there people who will try and cheat out there, sure? The old adage that "everyone that goes to Vegas sandbags" is false.

Celophanewrap · Jan 17, 2020

Some of you whine an awful lot. Why don't you just play and not worry about the
sandbagging. Why do let that into your head? That's one sure way to throw off
your game and probably get beat. Just play. There is much to be learned from a cheater,
and much to be learned from a straight up game.
Think about it for a minute. If you could custom make up an opponent you'd probably
win every time. Guys that lay down and guys that "seem" to lay down until they play
you are part of the game. Just play, not everyone is gonna be agreeable to you.
It's an off the rack world, don't try to make a custom player

Tom1234 · Jan 17, 2020

I wasn’t whining; just pointing out that keeping someone at a higher skill level hurts not only the player, but the team too. I haven’t been able to play for several weeks because our SL2 was out. APA’s computer system is surely sophisticated enough to look at a players last 10 matches to get a better (and more current) feel for their true handicap. If, in 10 consecutive matches, a SL7 only wins 3 or 4 times against 4,5,6and 7s, how can that player be a SL7? I should mention that other established 7s in our league have winning % at 70% or higher. I just can’t figure out why my hcp stays that high unless the LO has it in for me. No other explanation makes sense.

lorider · Jan 17, 2020

Tom1234 said:
I wasn’t whining; just pointing out that keeping someone at a higher skill level hurts not only the player, but the team too. I haven’t been able to play for several weeks because our SL2 was out. APA’s computer system is surely sophisticated enough to look at a players last 10 matches to get a better (and more current) feel for their true handicap. If, in 10 consecutive matches, a SL7 only wins 3 or 4 times against 4,5,6and 7s, how can that player be a SL7? I should mention that other established 7s in our league have winning % at 70% or higher. I just can’t figure out why my hcp stays that high unless the LO has it in for me. No other explanation makes sense.

As usual celophane made some very good points on this subject.

I have pretty much seen it all in apa ....and several other handicapped leagues having over 1700 matches in apa and around 400 total in bcapl...napa...usapl and tap.

Up until around 5 years ago i was pretty much like a lot of others on here in complaining about opponents handicaps. Then one day it hit me....a lot of opponents i complained about were also complaining about my handicap . at that moment i started reflecting back on exactly why i thought some opponents were underhandicapped when i played them and exactly what happened during my matches that caused my opponent to complain about me.

Then i started keeping track of my matches to the point i kept a log of how many innngs and how many racks won or lost and even particular shots that stuck out.

I came to realize that the mental aspect of the game was every bit as important as psr or your physical capabilities. I found that if i had a bad day at work it carried over to that night resulting in a bad night at pool..vice versa on good days. Also it depended on who my opponent was. Disclaimer here....i treat every one like i want to be treated but there are some that i just want to beat the shit out of every time i play them just because of their personna. I really get hp for those matches and also higher level opponents. Just cant seem to focus playing a 2 or 3.

So i realized many people are just like me and will have good and bad nights for reasons of their own. Does not make me or them a sandbagger. Playing countless people multiple times gives you an idea of how they play and i have been around pool long enough to know the difference between a bad shot and an intentional miss.

Those intentional misses raises a red flag with me and i report them to the lo ...doing my part to help curb obvious sandbagging.

Like i said earlier ...i used to complain a lot ....to my lo like a lot of people do . it seemed like yea...uh huh....was his responss most if the time so i quit complaining.

Then after a few years i saw what i thought was an obvious underhandicapoed 3 in a new division and told the lo as much. He asked....what makes you think that ?

I replied his psr....his aiming....his cue ball control...his thought process and pattern selection before he gets in position. Passing up hangers to break out problem balls ...which i have never seen a 3 do in my life before him.

The lo replied that tri cups are next weekend and he will keep an eye on him. He was raised the next week.

I then realized just complaining a 3 beat you aint gonna do the job. You need to be specific on exactly why you believe a person is underhandicapped.

Like i said....i have been accused of being a sandbagger countless times. The most ludicrous complaint came from a 5 like myself playing 9 ball in our ltc's . i won by one point and he started complaining to his captain and every one else within earshot i was a sandbagger.

Another time a 6 complained when i beat him 4-0 in 8 ball. It did ot mattert that he scratched on the 8 once...rattled the 8 once when i only had 2 balls left. He handx me 2 racks and then complained a 5 should not beat him 4-0.

I came to realize that a lot of players want to blame every one but theirself when they lose .

So thats my take on this subject aside from the fact that their are unscrupulous players out there that will try to win any way they can but i dont think its as prevalent as many claim.

Celophanewrap · Jan 17, 2020

Tom1234 said:
I wasn’t whining; just pointing out that keeping someone at a higher skill level hurts not only the player, but the team too. I haven’t been able to play for several weeks because our SL2 was out. APA’s computer system is surely sophisticated enough to look at a players last 10 matches to get a better (and more current) feel for their true handicap. If, in 10 consecutive matches, a SL7 only wins 3 or 4 times against 4,5,6and 7s, how can that player be a SL7? I should mention that other established 7s in our league have winning % at 70% or higher. I just can’t figure out why my hcp stays that high unless the LO has it in for me. No other explanation makes sense.

It's alot harder to go down that it is to go up. It's a difficult concept to grasp, but it doesn't
matter much what your opponents S/L is, and then as a 7 even if you play and win 5
games in 65 innings, you still only get credit for probably ten of those innings anyway.
Even though you lost, you're losing at a level 7 (if that makes any sense), anyway, when
we get into that conversation here every hater on the board seems to come out and the
conversation gets ridiculous. If you ever have a chance to sit down with someone when
they enter the data and have them explain it while they do it'll probably make more sense,
but if you think it a different way, like I don't know how big your area actually is,
but I doubt that your LO has enough time to give you as much attention as you think they
might be giving you. Even if you b!tch and moan and prove your case, in the end you
guys are going to need another 2 anyhow. Best start looking for one. It's all in how you
manage your S/L's, not sandbagging, but getting your players to give their best at all times.
Like I said, a difficult concept to grasp, but a fair and good one and way to keep your team
together for a longer time

cubswin · Jan 17, 2020

orion21 said:
I played one season of APA and was stunned at the system for so many reasons. NAPA is the best I've found. ZERO reason to lose ever. If you lose, you don't get points, if you don't get points, you don't get the cash. The end.

that is why I like napa, it is a benefit to actually try and win the games.

Though you can still get points without winning the match.

pogmothoin · Jan 18, 2020

You can’t figure the Equalizer system out because you’re not intended to. Even if you had the algorithm they use you can’t account for poor score keeping discipline whether done intentionally or out of ignorance or apathy.

Just play and accept it, or quit and find another outlet for your pool addiction.

Tom1234 · Jan 18, 2020

Celophanewrap said:
It's alot harder to go down that it is to go up. It's a difficult concept to grasp, but it doesn't
matter much what your opponents S/L is, and then as a 7 even if you play and win 5
games in 65 innings, you still only get credit for probably ten of those innings anyway.
Even though you lost, you're losing at a level 7.

You’re looking through the wrong end of the telescope. I’m not complaining about THEIR hcp; just saying mine is kept much higher than my true SL is now. If you’re a LO, please tell me how you can keep someone’s hcp at 7, when they win only 3 to 4 matches a session and lose about 90% of the matches against other SL7s. I complained to St. Louis about this last year and my hcp was promptly lowered. Win just 2, I’ll say again, 2 matches and go right back up. I’d love a LOGICAL explanation of how this could be.

angluse · Jan 18, 2020

americanfighter said:
... I was wondering if there was a way for me to estimate what my skill level is...
AF

If you can, reasonably consistently, pocket 5 balls in a turn, you're a SL5. If you regularly run-out an 8-ball rack, you're a SL7, or a 9-ball rack, SL9.

Simplified, but in my experience it has actually has been a decent method of estimation, at least here in my region.

----- brace for dogpile ------

sixpack · Jan 18, 2020

americanfighter said:
I am going to get involved in the APA here in a few weeks and I was wondering if there was a way for me to estimate what my skill level is. I have read some drills online however in a game like 9 I am a rather defensive player and those drills don't take defense into account.

On other run out drills I tend to fall under a lower skill lever than I know and others say I should be. So what is the most accurate way to predict what your skill level will be in the APA?

Thanks

AF

In my experience you take 8 - the number of beers you have during leagues (per hour). So if you drink 4 beers an hour you are a 4. No beers you are an 8.

That is usually more accurate than the system.

That's why when people go to Vegas and beer is $12 each their skill level jumps - they can only afford to drink half as much beer.

DecentShot · Jan 18, 2020

APA players are funny. This is like asking how long does a Marathon take? It doesn't matter, you just run, you get a time once you cross the finish line.

Maniac · Jan 18, 2020

I love this thread and all of the varying answers.

Some are funny. Some are logical. Some are informative. Some are just way out in left field. :thumbup:

Maniac

alstl · Jan 18, 2020

Here is my first hand APA experience.

If you win your first match people ***** that you aren't a 4 and they make you a 5.

If you win your second match people ***** that you aren't a 5 and they make you a 6.

If you win your third match they ***** and you tell them if they spent as much time playing pool as they do *****ing they would be better off.

Then you retired undefeated with a lifetime record of 3-0.

Not sure if there is a patch for retiring undefeated.

pogmothoin · Jan 18, 2020

angluse said:
If you can, reasonably consistently, pocket 5 balls in a turn, you're a SL5. If you regularly run-out an 8-ball rack, you're a SL7, or a 9-ball rack, SL9.

Simplified, but in my experience it has actually has been a decent method of estimation, at least here in my region.

----- brace for dogpile ------

That's certainly not even close where I play. There have been 7/9's that don't run out more than a handful of times a session.

I've been a 7 in 8 ball for a few years and am lucky to run out 3-4 times a session, most times less. If I play 10 matches a session and average 80 games per session that's pretty dismal.

DecentShot · Jan 18, 2020

pogmothoin said:
That's certainly not even close where I play. There have been 7/9's that don't run out more than a handful of times a session.

I've been a 7 in 8 ball for a few years and am lucky to run out 3-4 times a session, most times less. If I play 10 matches a session and average 80 games per session that's pretty dismal.

In EVERY APA thread I've ever seen, somebody always describes their APA area as tour level. In San Jose? Lol, they aren't any better, but what they're on makes them play a whole lot faster.

angluse · Jan 18, 2020

DecentShot said:
In EVERY APA thread I've ever seen, somebody always describes their APA area as tour level. In San Jose? Lol, they aren't any better, but what they're on makes them play a whole lot faster.

We're all cranksters?

No, not saying tour anything. Just saying what I see here.
Maybe it's because this region plays only on 9-foot tables, and that somehow tends to lower the average SL rating relative to actual skill?

I played regionals few times against folks from SF, Sacramento, Reno, Fresno and I think they're on bar tables and I can't say I noticed any difference. But I was mostly just trying to not suck on a 7' table, which I did every time.

I have heard it's different elsewhere, and opinions as to why but can't recall what those explanations were.

Celophanewrap · Jan 19, 2020

..........

Is there a way to estimate your APA skill level

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