Developing Expertise In Pool

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evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Imac007 said:
Each player when at their best has an essence to their shooting. SVB has a surgical precision. The stroke is deliberate and abbreviated. Even when he needs to let his stroke out it, the finish has a sense of finality. Jason Shaw has more of a laser like slicing action, while Filler is a sniper squeezing off round after round. Corey ranges from a delicate softness in his touch to dynamic power. Then Alex P’s stroke seems to join with what the balls needed to do. The stroke seems to emerge from the shot rather than the other way around. That essence has prompted many commentators to call him a pure striker of the ball. Each are descriptions of timing.

Years ago I read a book by Madeleine L'Engle, A Wrinkle in Time. The concept was that time travel might be possible if linear time could be folded. The idea was that the shortest distance between two points, in time, was not a straight line but a wrinkle. It’s a metaphor but has that element of truth.

When performers describe peak performances, a common thread is how time seems to expand or slow down. As we experience the passage of time our focus moves in and out. Pure experience is external, then thought gives us an interpretation moving our focus inward. When we emerge again to the external flow of life, the inward “folding” of attention meant we lost the intervening external time.

Joan Vickers introduced the world to “quiet eyes”. Good putters, free throw shooters and other targeting experts were shown to take a slightly longer quiet time to execute. They take time to smooth out the “wrinkles” in their experience and wait for a still point. Without wrinkles tine sense expands as pure experience is allowed to flow.

In his book, The Rhythm, Richard Lonetto talks about experience having more of a wave character. He describes a still point just before peak execution. Heart rate monitors on players at the Mosconi Cup showed us changing excitement levels. Planning a table crests the wave as decisions are made. Transitioning from choosing to action is best accomplished if a lull is experienced before execution. Without the trough of a quiet eye moment, rising anxiety, not the essence of the best self emerges.

Joe Davis talked about a pause at the back of the stroke while Del Hill said to pause before. Bottom line is all are describing a moment in which the purity of the stroke can be experienced.

What would that pure stroke look like? Line it up, feel it’s essence, let it happen, experience its purity. Smooth out the wrinkles, there is pure joy in the flow of balls on strings, connected as one. Then let it go and do it all again, like a child caught up in play’s undiluted embrace. The letting go is as important as the still point. Holding on is an internal wrinkling of experience. Relive the moment if you must but then move on. The true joy is in the doing, the journey.

Just like Debussy said that music is the space between the notes. These still points, quiet eyes and pauses are the unwrinkled spaces connecting us to the music of the spheres and the dance of the balls.

Jackie Stewart found those moments in each turn collapsing parts of seconds, wrinkling time in his own unique way. Paradoxically by experiencing the turn in so many segments he was expanding it at the same time.

Shots are so much sweeter when time is taken to find the sweet spots, the shot keys that are part of the essence of in stroke moments. As Vickers quiet eyes research showed, that interval might only be a half second but longer but contains purity and perfection when we take more time.

Getting “the wrinkles out of my performance” has taken on an updated version of the old analogy.
Click to expand...

damn fine post, Imac007 (is it "eye" mac, or "el" mac?)
coincidentally, I just happened on that debussy quote a few days ago..I like it
and instantly, I recall this part from a magazine interview with a producer I'm a fan of:

"Eddie Van Halen once told me that there are only twelve notes in an octave and it’s all about how you play those notes.
But my other guitar player, Rob Bacon, said there are only twelve notes on a guitar but its how you play in between the notes that give you your character.
So these guys have two totally different ways of thinking.
My thing is to use the twelve notes and nail them like Eddie Van Halen but at the same time see if I can multiply that and get thirty-six notes because Bacon told me there is music in between notes. "

(source: http://halftimeonline.net/main-ingredient/)

what quik says at the end, is interesting
especially when observed alongside your comments
what are the notes in pool?

your pros prose is neat
alex p is my favorite, and that's a hall of fame compliment you gave him
and along with other things you wrote
I'm reminded of the concept "living in the moment"
being focused, in the zone, nothing else exists, etc.
what conversation there's been, and will be, about that

the wrinkle analogy is awesome
I have a lot of ideas about that
I'll just mention here that with a chisel
we are chipping away, and smoothing down
but ourselves

and while what's left might be tight and good
what was removed is still useful, and beautiful
because it's still us
 
I

Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The spark

evergruven said:
damn fine post, Imac007 (is it "eye" mac, or "el" mac?)
coincidentally, I just happened on that debussy quote a few days ago..I like it
and instantly, I recall this part from a magazine interview with a producer I'm a fan of:

"Eddie Van Halen once told me that there are only twelve notes in an octave and it’s all about how you play those notes.
But my other guitar player, Rob Bacon, said there are only twelve notes on a guitar but its how you play in between the notes that give you your character.
So these guys have two totally different ways of thinking.
My thing is to use the twelve notes and nail them like Eddie Van Halen but at the same time see if I can multiply that and get thirty-six notes because Bacon told me there is music in between notes. "

(source: http://halftimeonline.net/main-ingredient/)

what quik says at the end, is interesting
especially when observed alongside your comments
what are the notes in pool?

your pros prose is neat
alex p is my favorite, and that's a hall of fame compliment you gave him
and along with other things you wrote
I'm reminded of the concept "living in the moment"
being focused, in the zone, nothing else exists, etc.
what conversation there's been, and will be, about that

the wrinkle analogy is awesome
I have a lot of ideas about that
I'll just mention here that with a chisel
we are chipping away, and smoothing down
but ourselves

and while what's left might be tight and good
what was removed is still useful, and beautiful
because it's still us
Click to expand...

CJ is that you? “Pro’s prose”, I love it. Eye real “eyes” that the message can operate as an added insight. Reminds me that the week part of my game is Sunday and that day’s daze sets the tone for the weak.

The chisel analogy reminded me that innovation is often missed because of what is no longer there. Wireless eliminates wires. Simplification. Experts have fewer decisions because they know what to do. Remove the chaff to reveal the kernel. Get lined up right and the grip stays quiet. When the simplicity of “just put it in the hole” isn’t working then maybe our mind needs to be put in the “whole”. To revisit the essence, the genesis of purity.

Every breath is creativity in action. Each in breath is a creation. The space between the out breath and the in needs the spark. Without it life stops. The space, the still moment, is where we create what comes next. Is it a work of art or are you just a master of the universe in training? Reach into that quiet moment and give birth to excellence or not, the choice is yours.

Thanks for the read, the reaction and new ideas.
 
S

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
jeffj2h...You should go back to Randyg now. You would learn more than you learned from those 3 years of lessons with Bert!

Scott Lee
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

jeffj2h said:
The OP asked about mechanics.

The first lesson I ever took was RandyG's 3-day class, which focuses mainly on mechanics. After I practiced that and got my mechanics and pre-shot routine down, I took weekly lessons for three years from Bert Kinister. Bert is a king at devising drills that teach important concepts of pocketing, CB control, and strategy.

Later I felt really lucky to have stumbled into this sequence: I learned mechanics. Then I did countless drills and studied pattern play and strategy. Good way to go.
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jasonlaus

jasonlaus

Rep for Smorg
Silver Member
BC21 said:
I always like your comments Larry. And this one in particular, I believe, is the key to improvement. There is no one stance or body position that works for every player, just as there is no one stroke that works for every player. Discovering your unique/individual style and developing that style to it's greatest level of consistency is probably the best road toward expertise in pool.
Click to expand...

I have recently found that facing the shot and bending at the waist(extreme snooker style) I cannot miss a long straight in shot. I mean Japanese bowing at the waist kinda bowing, full facing the shot. Seems very uncomfortable(like giving up the ass to a GF wearing a strap on- never had it happen, just feels like it). Seriously, cannot miss. The visual was needed. Sorry
 
S

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just wanted to get the facts out a little more clearly Imac007. The Quiet Eye Study, produced and published by the Univ of FL in 1999 preceded Joan Vickers material by 8 years. They were the first scientists to study quiet eye, and how it relates to pool and other sports. Funny thing is that the SPF Group of instructors had been teaching these same techniques for 15 years prior to the Quiet Eye Study...which went ahead to validate what we had been teaching for decades, and still do. An accurate, repeatable set-up and delivery system, coupled with a consisent PEP will improve any level player's consistency! BTW...There are 3 pauses: at the CB; at the backswing; and at the finish of the forward stroke.

Scott Lee
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

Imac007 said:
Joan Vickers introduced the world to “quiet eyes”. Good putters, free throw shooters and other targeting experts were shown to take a slightly longer quiet time to execute. They take time to smooth out the “wrinkles” in their experience and wait for a still point. Without wrinkles tine sense expands as pure experience is allowed to flow.


Joe Davis talked about a pause at the back of the stroke while Del Hill said to pause before. Bottom line is all are describing a moment in which the purity of the stroke can be experienced.

What would that pure stroke look like? Line it up, feel it’s essence, let it happen, experience its purity. Smooth out the wrinkles, there is pure joy in the flow of balls on strings, connected as one. Then let it go and do it all again, like a child caught up in play’s undiluted embrace. The letting go is as important as the still point. Holding on is an internal wrinkling of experience. Relive the moment if you must but then move on. The true joy is in the doing, the journey.

Just like Debussy said that music is the space between the notes. These still points, quiet eyes and pauses are the unwrinkled spaces connecting us to the music of the spheres and the dance of the balls.

Jackie Stewart found those moments in each turn collapsing parts of seconds, wrinkling time in his own unique way. Paradoxically by experiencing the turn in so many segments he was expanding it at the same time.

Shots are so much sweeter when time is taken to find the sweet spots, the shot keys that are part of the essence of in stroke moments. As Vickers quiet eyes research showed, that interval might only be a half second but longer but contains purity and perfection when we take more time.

Getting “the wrinkles out of my performance” has taken on an updated version of the old analogy.
Click to expand...
 
I

Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Scott Lee said:
Just wanted to get the facts out a little more clearly Imac007. If The Quiet Eye Study, produced and published by the Univ of FL in 1999 preceded Joan Vickers material by 8 years. They were the first scientists to study quiet eye, and how it relates to pool and other sports. Funny thing is that the SPF Group of instructors had been teaching these same techniques for 15 years prior to the Quiet Eye Study...which went ahead to validate what we had been teaching for decades, and still do. An accurate, repeatable set-up and delivery system, coupled with a consisent PEP will improve any level player's consistency! BTW...There are 3 pauses: at the CB; at the backswing; and at the finish of the forward stroke.

Scott Lee
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour
Click to expand...

Joan Vickers wrote her thesis on the concept while developing it in the early 1980’s at the University of Calgary. The Decision Training coaching model that she developed to teach the technique was adopted as the training model for Canadian Olympic athletes in the early 1990’s.
From Quiet Eyes - Wikipedia
History
Professor Joan Vickers is credited as the originator of quiet eye theory,[1][3] and has been working on the topic since the early 1980s.[4]

Thanks for reading and challenging that is what the forum should be.
 
I

Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Imac007 said:
Joan Vickers wrote her thesis on the concept while developing it in the early 1980’s at the University of Calgary. The Decision Training coaching model that she developed to teach the technique was adopted as the training model for Canadian Olympic athletes in the early 1990’s.
From Quiet Eyes - Wikipedia
History
Professor Joan Vickers is credited as the originator of quiet eye theory,[1][3] and has been working on the topic since the early 1980s.[4]

Thanks for reading and challenging that is what the forum should be.
Click to expand...

From the Coaching Association of Canada
Decision Training:
An Innovative Approach to Coaching
Decision Training (DT) has been taught since 1994 at the National Coaching Institute - Calgary (NCIC) as the foundation course for coaching effectiveness. Over the years, DT has gained recognition as a valuable method of building confidence in the many women coaches who instinctively steer their athletes towards independent thinking.

In this issue of the Journal, DT's creator, Dr. Joan Vickers, provides a comprehensive explanation of the DT approach. In doing so, she demonstrates its value in enabling coaches to train their athletes to be more self-reflective, make their own decisions, become more self-reliant, and thus be better prepared for training and for the decisions required to ensure great performances in the competitive setting. She shows how DT contrasts sharply with the traditional approach in which the coach focuses mainly on training the skills and capacities needed to perform - with little emphasis on the development of independent action and thinking on the part of the athlete. She takes the reader through the "3 Step DT Planning Process" and "7 DT Tools" that form the core of DT.

https://www.coach.ca/files/WiC_Journal_Feb_2003_Vol_3_No_3.pdf
 
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Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Language as body feedback

jasonlaus said:
I have recently found that facing the shot and bending at the waist(extreme snooker style) I cannot miss a long straight in shot. I mean Japanese bowing at the waist kinda bowing, full facing the shot. Seems very uncomfortable(like giving up the ass to a GF wearing a strap on- never had it happen, just feels like it). Seriously, cannot miss. The visual was needed. Sorry
Click to expand...

In the 1970’s two collaborators studying the language of the world’s leading therapists made an observation. Most language was sensory based. What people said was a window into how they were processing and what parts of their experience was highlighted. Just as people are right or left handed, they also had situational sensory preferences. The key when trying to understand what and how people did what they did was to listen carefully. Watching eye movements when they were talking also revealed what sensory information was being accessed. They developed a process through which they could model what a person did and replicate the behaviour.

The language revealed what was going on. I’ve written about how we also have a sense of balance and that our language reveals when it is in play. Sufferers of vestibular disruption, impaired balance, suffer from uncertainty. Words and phrases related to states of balance relate directly to our sense of certainty/confidence. They can be revealing in terms of how we approach things. Many of the words used denote stability. The foundation of a good stance. The anchoring of the bridge and other words denoting solidity.

A “straight forward” approach, dealing with problems/situations “directly”, tackling things “head on” all speak to both a balanced state but also a body orientation. The language carries the body’s revelation of what it takes to be in that state.

We now know that cognition is embodied, the body telling us about its experience. It’s important to remember that it’s feedback, an after the moment revelation. Players often try to put a state in place before hand. That turns focus inwards. Instead use the feedback to tell you if your body senses certainty and a proper body orientation, an outward focus.

The main issue pointed out by the language insights relates to the directness, the head on, straight forward sense when approaching the shot, readying for execution and just prior to the final action phase. These descriptors are found in the fundamentals taught.

Direct approach on line
Head on line
Straight forward down the line

It not only tells you your orientation but the method of approach.

This goes much further than alignment. It relates directly to confidence and certainty. Our sense of certainty manifests itself in predictable results as a consequence of positive direct action.
 
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Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootingArts View Post
Seems we are getting into areas that are going to be confusing to those that take things literally. Many believe in "muscle memory" as in muscles themselves developing memory. The body seems to be given thinking ability in some of these posts.
I don't think "muscle memory" is completely metaphorical. Just as muscles develop strength over time to perform practiced tasks, the brain and neural pathways controlling the muscles also become physically optimized to do them.

Here's an article about a specific way that happens:

Quote:
Myelin Sheath: The Science Behind Muscle Memory

"The more the nerve fires, the more myelin wraps around it. The more myelin wraps around it, the faster the signals travel, creating more muscle memory."
pj
chgo

I was rereading this thread since it is rich with reminders. Shooting Arts was concerned about the idea that thought was embodied. That means the body is communicating its experience in an interpretation we call thought.

Discussions extended to neuronal sheath signal conduction. That was interpreted as muscle memory.

Part of the issue is an old model of separation of mind and body. With that model was the idea that neurons were found in the brain only. We now know that they are found throughout the body and act as self sufficient control centers is some vital areas of the body.

The brain is part of the body as a whole. Muscle signal pathways develop in the brain neurons that extend to the neurons located in the body. Our body awareness is a complex thing bringing together bodily feelings such as touch, pressure, balance, location, along with the traditional senses generally taught.

Many reactions happen, with thought only being in the form of feedback, after the fact. When awareness is included, often decisions still need to be made, a slower kind of thinking. Emotions are a physiological collage of body reactions to events. Unlike linear thought they are gestalts, bundles of information unpacked as a singular experience. They are rich with interpretation and reactive options. A timeline, current situation, context and proposed actions are perceptual positions included in this state of affairs update.

The mind now determines how to proceed. This all happened out of consciousness and is now presented in consciousness prior to response.

The point is only people separate the body into parts, it’s a whole with roles performed synergistically throughout.
 
Straightpool_99

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
Imac007 said:
As players strive to get better they focus on the fundamentals, but is that the path to being an expert? They say elite athlete’s advancement lies in their ability to make finer and finer distinctions. Skiers learn to differentiate between types of snow, current weather effects, how packed it is and then minute shifts in the edges and placement of weight on the skis to make high speed adjustments. Where most race car drivers focus on the 3 basic parts of a turn, entry, apex and exit, and think 2 corners ahead, world renowned driver, Jackie Stewart, when tested, focused only on the current turn, it’s details and his descriptions and fMRI results showed he segmented turns into 8 parts. He knew the devil was in the details. Breaking down the skill into minute awareness bits allowed him to find the small ways he could gain time on his opponents. When tested he didn’t show better reaction time than other drivers. He learned where to focus to get his edge.

The question players, who want to take their game to the next level, need to ask themselves is "what part of what I’m doing can give me an incremental advantage."

What do you think is the primary area, of finer distinctions, that most likely will lead to expertise in pool?
Click to expand...

Fundamentals, fundamentals, fundamentals.

The ability to stay still, to deliver the cue straight at the right speed trumps all others. Even terrible patterns, lousy shot selections and many other mistakes and flaws can be overcome by pure straight shooting in many if not most cases. Straight shooting comes from fundamentals. If you stand steadier, deliver the cue straighter, get more precise english than your opponent, he needs luck to beat you.

Patterns and shot selection ARE important, safeties and tactics too, but without steady fundamentals and straight shooting, you're wasting your time. When you get your shot, you must get out. Before you can advance, you must learn to get out on your easy opportunities. That's where people blunder, that's what fundamentals do. You get the tough shots, sure, but fundamentals give you the easy racks, nearly every time, and that will win many a tournament.

Mental strength is the ability to perform your fundamentals under stress. This ability comes from confindence of having done stuff over and over, CORRECTLY. Without good fundamentals your'e only practising inconsistency. That may be an oxymoron, but it also true. Without the solidity of being able to do things exactly the same, how can you ever trust your cueing? Your mind will go under pressure. Everything is connected and fundamentals is what unites it.
 
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Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The Role of the Grip

To understand the distinctions possible during the stroke the role of the grip is discussed based on dissecting the details revealed by top players and coaches.

In 1995 Edward Witten was faced with a conundrum. String theory had emerged as a unifying concept in physics. The language of physics is math. Language is about description. Witten was faced with 5 such models. The 5 models all had their own mathematical description. Each had the ring of truth.

I watched a video laying out the various unification perspectives and the problems faced by each. In explaining the Witten problem the narrator used an analogy. He said it was like truth being on a stage. However, we are backstage with no direct view. Despite that the stage has various mirrors set up around the “truth” allowing us to view parts of it from various angles. None give us the whole picture. He likened the mirrored truths to the various math model descriptions.

Using that concept I set out to discover the “truth” about the grip in pool. The descriptions are not mathematical but the words, oral or written, “spoken” by top pros and coaches.

Before I continue, a couple of golf stories seemed relevant. During a training session of Annika Sörenstam she addressed the issue of stance. She stood every which way and still managed to hit the ball down the fairway. Next she took a club, I think it was a 5 wood, and she chipped with it, hit it low, then high, over a variety of distances. Her point was that the key was what happened in the impact zone.

The other story is about Moe Norman. He was legendary for the pure straightness of every shot. Having mastered the direction he was able to make finer distinction of the arc of the shot becoming a master of how high he would hit the ball. Once again the importance of what happened through the impact area was emphasized.

I have taken various grip descriptions and applied the same logic. Each description in m theory was trying to detail the same thing, the central unifying truth.

The detailing of how to grip the cue is not about holding the cue. The various descriptions were about how to deliver the cue through the ball at impact.

Like the Witten math models, none are wrong, only specific from a particular perspective, glimpses of the whole. We are faced with the same issue in pool.

A pool channel who calls himself M theory speaks about the grip. He talks about how holding the cue with single finger put him in touch with weight, direction, speed and other dynamics. In simple terms he was able to sense the momentum with which the ball could be hit within that constraint. And, the game is one of touch.

Touch research tells us that the human fingertips can sense a difference in thickness of a single molecule. The M theory poster tells us that a single fingertip grip can put us in touch with momentum and reaction through impact. But one finger is a single perspective. Snooker great Joe Davis spoke about the first two fingers gripping the cue. A modern snooker coach Barry Stark recommends the forefinger and ring finger make the primary grip. Ronnie O’Sullivan and Stephen Lee describe it as having varying pressure depending on shot and that it is a squeeze with different timed pressures. Both spoke about using a consistent shot tempo for most shot, varying the height of cue ball contact to move the cue ball into position. Both however spoke about all the fingertips touching the butt during the responsive opening and closing of the hand. Alex Higgins often held the cue cupped in the middle two fingers, while another YouTuber, Brandon the Billiard Guy speaks of using the back two fingers to drive the cue forward on long shots. On close rail shots he uses a light downward pressure to stabilize the cue.

The different descriptions are all correct within their own context. The commonality is about how the cue goes through the ball at contact, just like the golfer’s insights told us. Each grip is designed for that purpose. Each has a truth.

The Joe Davis grip was still a full hand grip with more pressure at the front. Joe wanted to drive through the ball, with the drive pulling the cue and cueing arm down through the ball into a level follow. The more pronounced grip was for control and added power. Barry Stark reveals the same intent but by changing the second finger grip to the ring finger, the two holding points farther apart create a flatter plane for cue travel and make it less likely the player will twist the cue during delivery. Brandon, using the back two fingers on long shots echoes the Davis desire for a long level follow.

SO WHAT? What is the fundamental principle in play?

FUNCTIONAL INTENT
Regardless of grip, the intent is the ability to generate specific contact through impact.

Insight one
When the shot is aimed, aligned and perceptually correct, the unconscious mind will have no need to make adjustments during delivery.

Insight two
The proper grip situationally is one that can most passively accommodate the precise contact and momentum needed during execution.

Insight three
As a game of touch, hand/eye coordination suggests the fingertips maintain awareness of pressure and momentum during the execution.

Insight four
A squeeze grip flattens the hand, allowing the fingertips to curl and maintain touch with the cue. This is a passive position allowing the hand to sense the mass involved in the cue delivery. With mass awareness the velocity of the delivery can be fine tuned with minor pressure adjustments. This controls momentum.

In physics the letter p is used to designate momentum. It’s formula is p=mv.

When M theory used only a one finger grip, the cue was the main source of mass beyond a minute momentum vector generated by the moving hand.

Advocates of a pendulum stroke with a two finger grip add a stronger momentum vector with the forearm added to the mass.

Del Hill, coach to several world snooker champions, adds the upper arm mass to the equation. Ronnie O shows us how, without significantly adding velocity to the shot, added mass gives him significant controllable momentum.

A principle of motor skill execution is that the faster a player must execute the likelihood of error increases.

In the p=mv equation, if p remains constant and mass is increased, velocity must be reduced.

A corollary to the increase in velocity creates errors fact, is the inverse which is that a decrease in velocity increases accuracy.

Insight five
The more mass that can be used to create momentum the slower the stroke can be made, reducing error in the process. A lesser mass forces speed increases to attain higher momentum levels. The likelihood of losing hand passivity as momentum needs increase is high. The delivery becomes handsy and rushed. Longer swings are often used losing compactness and accuracy.

There is no right or wrong grip. The key to choice is the intended contact through the impact zone. Central to that is being as aware as possible. While the initial hold is passive, the momentum awareness allows the hand to make slight adjustments based on the sensed mass/velocity and desired effects at impact.

The grip should enable the player to be as passive as possible while being in touch with dynamics of the shot. Beyond that it should be positioned to make unconscious adjustments in a timely fashion.

M theory mention the lightness of the Alex P grip. Watch his hand closely. He is like a musical virtuoso. His fingers vacillate along the butt. It’s like he is feeling each grip variation and its effect through impact. Often his whole arm joins the party while stroking. Commentators over the last two decades have extolled the purity of his stroke. As to the lightness M theory noted, I see it until he decides on the needed grip, one which has no looseness, despite the trying on phase, where he grips, loosens and regrips. Grip is the wrong word though, it’s the passive cue hold, capable of in-shot adjustment based on momentum needs, that I see.

I no longer force myself to choose one. They are each tools in the toolbox. I let the situation dictate what I use. When my bridging finds the bridge shaky I use a little downward pressure to stabilize. On soft long shots I like the back two finger hold. On others my body has a felt sense of ball reactions with a specific contact and tempo. In those cases I let my body choose without conscious choice.
 
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One Pocket John

One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Welcome back Imac007.
Enjoy your posts.

Years ago Earl Strickland began playing with an extension on the butt of his cue. Everyone just shook their heads at this idea.

Fast forward to about 2017. SVB spent a couple of weeks with Earl in NYC while playing in a tourney.

Shortly afterward SVB started using an extension on the butt of his cue. Shortly after that Jason Shaw started using and extension on the butt of his cue. Now their are pros from all over the globe using a butt extension.

IMHO the butt extensions (weight behind the grip) and not being felt in the grip hand are an advantage to playing the game. All that is needed is a trigger finger/s in the grip hand to start the forward weight forward (a pulling action, no tension in the shooting arm). Once this rear weight is started forward it will provide all the momentum required to send the cue ball where ever a player wants to send it. Once this weight is started forward it will stay in a straight line unless of course a player does something funky with their grip hand.

If you notice smaller players hold their cue in the middle of the wrap which would put the weight of the cue behind their grip hand which provides momentum for the cue. The old saying "let the cue do the work" rings true.

Taller players, players that hold the cue at almost the butt cap, are at a disadvantage, by that I mean they must rely on providing muscle to move the cue forward. (a pushing action - tension in the shooting arm)

Watch SVB and JS They are well aware of the weight that is behind their grip hand and use it very well.

I agree 100%, the grip ( a poor word choice by the way) is passive.

I wonder sometimes what would happen if a UK pro snooker player would add an extension (an 8" extension is all that would be needed) to their cue. Would be interesting to watch.

I'm 6'2" tall and have a 6'2" wing span. I use a 70" cue, it weighs 24oz. The cue has a 3.75" (2oz) mid extension and also has a homemade (made with very light material) 8" butt extension with the last 3" inches weighing 3oz.
All I do is get the weight moving forward with my index finger and thumb holding the cue. All of the factory weighting has been removed. I don't want to feel any weight in my grip hand, I want to feel the weight behind my grip hand.
If I can get that weight moving forward in a straight line (which can be challenging at times) it will stay and finish in a straight line.

Got to get dinner started. Talk to you later.

Keep writing. :)

John
 
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Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
One Pocket John said:
Welcome back Imac007.
Enjoy your posts.

Years ago Earl Strickland began playing with an extension on the butt of his cue. Everyone just shook their heads at this idea.

Fast forward to about 2017. SVB spent a couple of weeks with Earl in NYC while playing in a tourney.

Shortly afterward SVB started using an extension on the butt of his cue. Shortly after that Jason Shaw started using and extension on the butt of his cue. Now their are pros from all over the globe using a butt extension.

IMHO the butt extensions (weight behind the grip) and not being felt in the grip hand are an advantage to playing the game. All that is needed is a trigger finger/s in the grip hand to start the forward weight forward (a pulling action, no tension in the shooting arm). Once this rear weight is started forward it will provide all the momentum required to send the cue ball where ever a player wants to send it. Once this weight is started forward it will stay in a straight line unless of course a player does something funky with their grip hand.

If you notice smaller players hold their cue in the middle of the wrap which would put the weight of the cue behind their grip hand which provides momentum for the cue. The old saying "let the cue do the work" rings true.

Taller players, players that hold the cue at almost the butt cap, are at a disadvantage, by that I mean they must rely on providing muscle to move the cue forward. (a pushing action - tension in the shooting arm)

Watch SVB and JS They are well aware of the weight that is behind their grip hand and use it very well.

I agree 100%, the grip ( a poor word choice by the way) is passive.

I wonder sometimes what would happen if a UK pro snooker player would add an extension (an 8" extension is all that would be needed) to their cue. Would be interesting to watch.

I'm 6'2" tall and have a 6'2" wing span. I use a 70" cue, it weighs 24oz. The cue has a 3.75" (2oz) mid extension and also has a homemade (made with very light material) 8" butt extension with the last 3" inches weighing 3oz.
All I do is get the weight moving forward with my index finger and thumb holding the cue. All of the factory weighting has been removed. I don't want to feel any weight in my grip hand, I want to feel the weight behind my grip hand.
If I can get that weight moving forward in a straight line (which can be challenging at times) it will stay and finish in a straight line.

Got to get dinner started. Talk to you later.

Keep writing. :)

John
Click to expand...

The advantage on a smaller table of using a longer cue relates to minimal rest use. A 6x12 snooker table forces players to become adept with the rest often needing an extension anyway. Sunny Akani has introduced some new technique.

https://youtu.be/JADpO-wwv_g

Wanting to extend your bridge arm fully when tall, as you are, can be a problem, especially if the cue is extended across the body using a side on stance. The need for extra length or a change in stance is the alternative.

The post I made was intended to be about the grip and how best to keep it as passive as possible. Beyond that the use of more mass allows the velocity to be reduced and still get the job done. I’ve seen delicate shots played using only the big muscles in the arm. The big muscles can move slowly yet impart momentum. Darting finger flips, mini jabs on short shots are hard to judge and often lead to fouls.

I reserve pendulum strokes for near straight shots up to about 7 feet in length. Also for shorter follow through strokes from soft to medium, basic mid range shots.

On any follow or run through shot needing a longer follow I switch to a full arm stroke. Using more mass I can slow the stroke and keep it at a medium length and gain better control of follow. The key is being in touch with the mass moving in a straight line.

The key of course is recognizing the type of interaction the chosen stroke creates in the impact area.
 
9ball5032

9ball5032

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You will go to the Dagobah system. There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me.
 
D

duckie

GregH
Silver Member
All cue movement is controlled by muscle. When doing the backstroke, the bicep is extending and the tricep is contracting........simply put.

The forward stroke, the bicep contracts, the tricep extends.......this is how the elbow is bent.

You can not let the arm move like a swing, where position, height, of the swing when released and gravity control the motion of the swing.

You can’t do this with the elbow.........while awake.

You can not move a cue without tensions in the muscles. To think otherwise is wrong.
 
Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
duckie said:
You can not let the arm move like a swing, where position, height, of the swing when released and gravity control the motion of the swing.

You can’t do this with the elbow.........while awake.
Click to expand...
Nonsense. Gravity doesn't stop working when I'm awake.

pj
chgo
 
I

Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Reality checks

duckie said:
All cue movement is controlled by muscle. When doing the backstroke, the bicep is extending and the tricep is contracting........simply put.

The forward stroke, the bicep contracts, the tricep extends.......this is how the elbow is bent.

You can not let the arm move like a swing, where position, height, of the swing when released and gravity control the motion of the swing.

You can’t do this with the elbow.........while awake.

You can not move a cue without tensions in the muscles. To think otherwise is wrong.
Click to expand...

Swing is defined as a to and fro motion. The motion is from an axis or any suspension. In the case of a pendulum stroke it is from a fixed axis. In the case of a full arm stroke it is from the suspended upper arm including the elbow.

The action of a pendulum stroke as described in expansion/contraction terms emphasizes that different muscles are involved in each direction. The functional intent of the pause at the back of the swing should be to ensure that the muscles complete their action and the forward muscles initiate the second phase. If the axis remains fixed the swing must slow to a stop before going forward. If the swing does not stop it indicates a looping action at the back of the swing.

However, when the swing comes from a suspension, such as the upper arm, a continuous motion is possible without a pause. Most sports swings are looping swings. Among the criteria behind a pendulum swing is the maintenance of an on shot plane travel throughout. The fixed pivot at the elbow satisfies a second criteria, fewer moving parts.

After years of accepting that model I became aware of another significant perspective. Smooth mechanical motion incorporates looping to maintain motion. A camshaft loops to avoid a jarring back and forth action using a stop. Smoothness becomes a criteria in that case.

By dropping the fixed axis constraint the swing become a motion from a suspension based one. The constraint becomes that no sideways looping can be allowed. That means there can be a loop at the back but it may only occur in the same vertical plane as the cue line. That leaves only two possible loops. One rises then falls as it moves forward, the second falls then rises as it moves ahead. Another criteria enters the choice. The cue travel through the contact has a trajectory based on the shot need. Bridge distance and height play a role but can be fixed prior to the stroke so are not part of this action discussion.

Dell Hill, Ronnie O’Sullivan’s mentor, taught several world champions that the loop should be one that rises then loops downward in the forward motion. Borrowing from the pendulum stroke the backstroke rises naturally from a fixed pivot, so he recommends the first half. That said, the starting position for a pendulum must be in impact position, level, on most shots. Dell deviates here. He points out that by necessity the cue must be angled downwards at address, on most shots, and that a level cue constraint is flawed. First in order to draw the cue back level and stay level, the elbow would need to drop during the takeaway.

Since that fails on so many other levels he says we have to accept that the butt of the cue must rise and the upward arc of the pendulum in fact creates an ever changing downward cue plane. This upward arcing creates increasing space between the grip hand and the table. Dell recommends a starting downward cue plane in the address position. The backswing arcs the cue hand higher naturally and above the pendulum position.

At the conclusion of the backward arc, the forward swing comes from the suspended upper arm. The opened elbow is kept as one with the whole arm including the upper arm and forearm starting the forward movement. The arm pivots slightly at the shoulder, the upper arm including the elbow, moving as one, start to drop. The functional intent is still to deliver the cue on the correct trajectory at impact. To that end the elbow folds naturally bringing the cue into a smooth landing. Dell turns his attention to the pause just before the start of the backswing. No attention is given to a pause at the back. As long as the cue stays on the shot plane it doesn’t matter.

If a pendulum stroke with a fixed elbow tried to drop down, as described above, the cue butt would fall below the bridge height creating an upward cue plane. By starting with a downward plane, space was created to allow the drop to arc much like a plane landing into the intended impact course. Dell creates the space at the address. His point is that fixed elbow pendulums are forced on a significant number of shots to assume that address position anyways but it serves no function purpose for them, only creates a delivery problem, within the pendulum stroke criterial constraints. Dell presents a reality check. The table gives us a downward plane on many shots. How can you use it is a better question than how do we overcome it?
 
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