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lorider
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03-31-2015, 03:13 AM

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Originally Posted by cardiac kid View Post
Rider,

This was not a ref's decision. Dabarbr clearly stated the tournament director made the call to replay the rack. If the TD did not know such a fundimental APA rule, it speaks poorly of the APA, the APA league operator for asking someone without APA rule knowledge to determine rule violations and the tournament director for not looking to the APA handbook for the correct ruling.

Lyn
appreciate the heads up that my reading comprehension went out the window while i was reading his post.
  
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03-31-2015, 08:49 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dabarbr View Post
Not too long ago I was watching an APA match between a couple of low level players. Winner of the match goes to Vegas for the National singles in their level group.
It was a match with two women and one is a skill level three and the other is a skill level two. The three has to win three games and the two goes to two games. The score is hill/hill meaning they each need one more win.

The skill level three is at the table and is on the eight ball but she is hooked and decides to kick at the eight to the pocket that she marked. She does hit the eight ball, doesn't make it, but then scratches.

The level two players picks up the cue ball lines up for a shot on her remaining ball before the eight. She shoots and misses. The level three then says she is taking a bathroom break. While she is gone the level two player is informed by spectators that level three scratched and lost the game.

Understanding that both players are under pressure and probably unsure of what happened. When the level three returned from her break the level two called for the tournament director to sort things out.
When he came over and was informed of what happened, he asked the lever three if she had scratched and she confirmed that indeed scratch. He thought about it for a bit and then made the decision for them to play the game over. Me, not being involved, kept quiet. Was that the right call? Would you have said something?
The APA Tournament Director's word is final, so at this point whichever player won the replay will be able to compete in Vegas. If the 3 won only by way of replaying that questioned game, though, there may be an opportunity for the 2. The TD's call is in clear discord with the League's game rules. There is no scenario in which the three should have been allowed to make another shot, and no scenario in which the game should not have been concluded after that scratch on the 8 (any more than if two baseball teams end the 9th inning with a score of 7-4 lined up to play a 10th - it would be invalid as no additional play can occur at the conclusion of the game).

If the 3 ended up winning the replay and consequently the trip to Vegas in the 2's stead, the 2 has a very strong case to appeal to the APA National Tournament Director to be afforded the opportunity to compete at nationals, inclusive of all of the travel assistance/hotel compensation that would normally have been afforded her. Of course, the tournament is in the beginning of May, so time is short - she should pursue such an appeal immediately.

Edit - on looking back at the OP, the argument cannot be made that the 2 missed the opportunity to call the foul, even if it did not stand and execute the end of the game on its own, as her shot cannot be shown as deliberate continuation of the game. Had she made her final ball before the 8 and then marked a pocket, it might be be strained to argue in favor of a replay, but as she did not, and did not allow the 3 to take another shot before she commented on the loss, there is absolutely no sustainable logic under the rules of the game by which the TD's call would be upheld on appeal. The 3 would not be removed from participation in the national tournament as it has already been granted, but the 2 would certainly gain entry.

Last edited by jeremy8000; 03-31-2015 at 10:13 AM.
  
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03-31-2015, 10:05 AM

---duplicate--

Last edited by jeremy8000; 03-31-2015 at 10:11 AM.
  
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03-31-2015, 10:14 AM

That's why apa sucks ... And i quit years ago .... It's such a fu....ed up system ... And the rules interpretations are subjective in every region of the country ....
  
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03-31-2015, 10:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by calcwby4u View Post
That's why apa sucks ... And i quit years ago .... It's such a fu....ed up system ... And the rules interpretations are subjective in every region of the country ....
Every system has flaws, but this situation was neither a system flaw nor a rule that left anything to interpretation. It arose from complete ignorance on part of the TD of a very clearly defined rule.

I'll agree that there are some other rules that are less clearly defined. But regardless of what any of our personal opinions may be of APA, it does foster a tremendous amount of awareness for the sport and an easy avenue to participation for beginning players.
  
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03-31-2015, 11:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy8000 View Post
Every system has flaws, but this situation was neither a system flaw nor a rule that left anything to interpretation. It arose from complete ignorance on part of the TD of a very clearly defined rule.

I'll agree that there are some other rules that are less clearly defined. But regardless of what any of our personal opinions may be of APA, it does foster a tremendous amount of awareness for the sport and an easy avenue to participation for beginning players.
Nice post!

KMRUNOUT
  
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03-31-2015, 03:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by hang-the-9 View Post
I disagree that it should have been a loss.
Of course you would and if everyone was here saying it was a good call you would be arguing the opposite. Again, you do not play APA and do not know the rules thus should not be commenting.

The game was a loss the instant she scratched. Everything that happened after that is immaterial.

If this was actually a hill hill game as the OP said, then the person that scratched should have immediately gotten up and congratulated the winner before heading to the bathroom and it was poor sportsmanship to do otherwise.

In addition, if this game was for Vegas, as the OP claims, there would have been APA officials watching it to begin with.
  
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Skippy27
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03-31-2015, 03:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
An example is in the BCAPL rules when both players are so distracted or scatter-brained that they forget who has which group:
3. Once they are established, groups can never change for the remainder of that game. If a player shoots the wrong group and no foul is called before the next shot and the player continues to shoot at that group, or if at any time during the game it is discovered by either player or a referee that the players are shooting the wrong groups, the game will be replayed with the player who broke the game breaking again. If a game has ended and then the players realize they shot the wrong groups, the game is not replayed and the result stands.
Thats all fine and dandy Bob, but that is not the APA rule. You can shoot the wrong ball and make it. If you opponent does not inform you of so and you realize it and shoot your correct ball in the next shoot they can't call the foul. If you shoot all of the wrong balls in and then shoot the 8 ball in or even make contact with the 8 ball attempting to shoot it in, your opponent lost the ability to call a foul as that "suit" has become yours.
  
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Bob Jewett
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03-31-2015, 03:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy27 View Post
Thats all fine and dandy Bob, but that is not the APA rule. ...
Well, yes, that's true. I was discussing the larger question of what should happen when players are playing a game that is not the game they are supposed to be playing. I did not intend to be discussing the APA situation in particular.

I think we can all agree that the APA rules are goofy, unclear and broken.


Bob Jewett
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03-31-2015, 04:08 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Well, yes, that's true. I was discussing the larger question of what should happen when players are playing a game that is not the game they are supposed to be playing. I did not intend to be discussing the APA situation in particular.

I think we can all agree that the APA rules are goofy, unclear and broken.
what is your opinion of the following situation ?

the game is points based 8 ball. you are at the table and your team needs only one point to win the nights match ups. you do not have a clear shot at any of your balls so you elect to hit your opponents ball and knocking your hanger in.

your point counts although you made an illegal hit and as a result your team wins. that is the goofiest league rule i have ever heard of and let me give you a hint...it aint apa i am talking about.
  
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Bob Jewett
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03-31-2015, 04:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by lorider View Post
what is your opinion of the following situation ?

the game is points based 8 ball. you are at the table and your team needs only one point to win the nights match ups. you do not have a clear shot at any of your balls so you elect to hit your opponents ball and knocking your hanger in.

your point counts although you made an illegal hit and as a result your team wins. that is the goofiest league rule i have ever heard of and let me give you a hint...it aint apa i am talking about.
If the goal is to get your balls off the table and that play gives you the needed point, then I think it's fine. Similarly at nine ball, if you are totally hooked on the two ball and the nine is hanging in the pocket, it's fine to play the 5-9 combo. There is a clear penalty for the foul but it's worth it.

On a side note, I'm not a fan of points-based 8 ball and 9 ball.


Bob Jewett
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03-31-2015, 05:47 PM

This is not an "apa rule" it is just clarified in the apa rule book. Each shot of the wrong group is a foul, it just states you can let your opponent keep fouling until you decide to call a foul. If you wait until the last ball then yes, you have bih on the eight.

Apa is not and never has been about sportsmanship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dardusm View Post
APA can have some funny rules. It's been awhile since I've played, but I remember the rule where the incoming shooter shoots the wrong group and I as the opponent can wait until they continue until a time I choose to call them on it. If I don't call them on it, then they would win the game even though they shot the wrong group (fouled) or they become that group. So, I don't think the rules are nearly as cut and dried in the APA concerning this situation. It's possible that because the foul wasn't called and the game continued it isn't a loss even though the game was technically over after the scratch.
  
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03-31-2015, 07:38 PM

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Originally Posted by Skippy27 View Post
Thats all fine and dandy Bob, but that is not the APA rule. You can shoot the wrong ball and make it. If you opponent does not inform you of so and you realize it and shoot your correct ball in the next shoot they can't call the foul. If you shoot all of the wrong balls in and then shoot the 8 ball in or even make contact with the 8 ball attempting to shoot it in, your opponent lost the ability to call a foul as that "suit" has become yours.
First off, I always hate that scenario. If I start shooting the wrong balls and then realize it, I'll call the foul on myself; likewise, if I can tell an opponent is about to shoot the wrong ball, I'll tell them. That's just about good sportsmanship. Letting someone do all the work for you then stealing the win is just cheap.

Regardless, that APA rule simply isn't applicable here. There was no opportunity for continuation as the 3 did not have the opportunity for a follow-up shot wherein the scratch went unacknowledged. That the 2 took a shot is immaterial. She declared that the game had been over as a result of the scratch. If she had taken that shot, then on the 3's return to the table allowed them to mark a pocket and shoot again, your exception might possibly be construed as applicable, but for the purposes of the scenario of the OP, it isn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcrack_corn View Post
Apa is not and never has been about sportsmanship.
Any league is about sportsmanship in intent, and strives to make rules that will support it. It's the players who choose to seek loopholes by adhering to the letter, but not the spirit, of the laws - or who outright hide their offenses - who fail the league. I'd challenge you to name any league of decent size where its members cannot cite numerous instances of poor sportsmanship on the part of its players.

Last edited by jeremy8000; 03-31-2015 at 07:45 PM.
  
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03-31-2015, 07:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by lorider View Post
what is your opinion of the following situation ?

the game is points based 8 ball. you are at the table and your team needs only one point to win the nights match ups. you do not have a clear shot at any of your balls so you elect to hit your opponents ball and knocking your hanger in.

your point counts although you made an illegal hit and as a result your team wins. that is the goofiest league rule i have ever heard of and let me give you a hint...it aint apa i am talking about.
Rider,

A few years ago in a local BCA pool league match for the "free" trip to Vegas, we needed one ball to win. Our player looked at the situation and hit our opponents ball into one of ours making the ball. Sure it was an illegal hit but as all balls down stay down (except the eight), we won the trip thanks to a quick thinking player. Not knowing the applicable rules is a fundimental flaw in many players game. You may consider it a goofy rule but, explain to me your remedy!

So you break a rack and three balls go in. Did you call any of the three in advance? Did you mark the pocket if the eight ball was one of the balls made? If you legally shoot one of your balls in the pocket and another of your ball set also drops, should that ball be respotted? A can of worms that should not be opened Rider.

We may not agree with the all the rules in use. The people who created the rules set gave each a thorough going over and the consensus ruled. Leave well enough alone.

Lyn


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03-31-2015, 07:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by lorider View Post
what is your opinion of the following situation ?

the game is points based 8 ball. you are at the table and your team needs only one point to win the nights match ups. you do not have a clear shot at any of your balls so you elect to hit your opponents ball and knocking your hanger in.

your point counts although you made an illegal hit and as a result your team wins. that is the goofiest league rule i have ever heard of and let me give you a hint...it aint apa i am talking about.
I've shot that many times. If we need one point to the win the round, I knock in my hanger and give him bih. It's usually not till afterwards they realize they lost with my hanger.

The goal is to win. No diff that taking an intentional foul in 1P to get out of an extreme jam. If I have a game winning hanger, and the other guy does NOT run out, that's on him, not me
  
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