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06-20-2016, 11:01 AM

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Originally Posted by JC View Post
I am extremely hard to offend as anyone who want's a stress free life should be.

JC
I lead a very stress free life, I am just able to bear only so much ignorance.

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06-20-2016, 12:46 PM

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Originally Posted by erhino41 View Post
I don't think these rules are exactly perfect because they take out the fact that there are many people who identify as female who don't want to physically alter their bodies. Take for instance saying that all cross dresses who do not want to undergo hormonal therapies for whatever reason are males because they are not on hormones. This completely disregards who they are on the inside.Your either all in or your nothing is not the way it is. I would think that anyone who dresses in women's clothes in some way shape or form identifies with the female gender.

Now the real question at hand is: how could you ever make a rule to encompass all forms of gender identity and keep a competitive environment for all those involved? I don't think you really can. These may be the closest we can get, having to have medical"proof". Once you relax the rules of any sport, people are going to be waiting to jump in and game the system. It is a shame but that is life.

I do think it is odd that the wpba would take this stance on the subject. Simply by having this rule they are implying that men are superior to females and that a person has to "handicap" themselves with hormones in order to level the playing field. I do not feel this way, but that seems to be the implication here.
I don't hate anybody and encourage freedom in living life in the lifestyle of ones wishes but feelings do not trump science, biology and pure fact. If someone is scientifically or biologically a male or female, that's good enough for me. If not, they are out. Anything beyond that and the rule writers will be re-writing the books ad infinitum to include all the possible "special cases and circumstances".
  
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06-20-2016, 12:48 PM

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Originally Posted by JC View Post
I am extremely hard to offend as anyone who want's a stress free life should be.

JC
Same here brutha


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06-20-2016, 01:00 PM

Way to create problems for yourselves! There are a MILLION URGENT PROBLEMS in the world right now, I mean real life or death style decisions we will have to make to ensure the survival of the human race, and THIS is the problem that you care about!?

By all means, do your best to shield your women from the men without male genetalia and a system full of female hormones..I'd probably worry more about the inverse situation myself, but hey..

First, allow me to ask you all a question: Why did womens pool stay on tv in America longer than mens pool? Was the level of competition higher, or do you suppose other factors were at play? Why can a female pool player (with certain attributes) make a living, playing at a B-speed, while male super pros are starving? Not talking about tournament winnings only, but sponsorship specifically. Now ask yourselves, are transgendered people going to horn in on this very limited market? Can they, even?

First: Nobody is going to cut off their genitalia to earn the meager wage of a female pool pro.

Second: No transgendered people we know of even posess the skills necessary to do so.

Third: Would a transgendered person even have that much of a physical advantage in the game of pool? Not talking about Mika/Thorsten/Shane in a dress here, I mean an actual transgender person. If the hormones had no effect, people wouldn't be taking them...

Natural born women have been and still are competitive at a fairly high level with men. Jean Balukas and Jasmine Ouschan are examples of that. If more women were actually interested in pool we would have more examples of this.

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06-20-2016, 01:06 PM

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Originally Posted by Straightpool_99 View Post
Way to create problems for yourselves! There are a MILLION URGENT PROBLEMS in the world right now, I mean real life or death style decisions we will have to make to ensure the survival of the human race, and THIS is the problem that you care about!?

By all means, do your best to shield your women from the men without male genetalia and a system full of female hormones..I'd probably worry more about the inverse situation myself, but hey..

First, allow me to ask you all a question: Why did womens pool stay on tv in America longer than mens pool? Was the level of competition higher, or do you suppose other factors were at play? Why can a female pool player (with certain attributes) make a living, playing at a B-speed, while male super pros are starving? Not talking about tournament winnings only, but sponsorship specifically. Now ask yourselves, are transgendered people going to horn in on this very limited market? Can they, even?

First: Nobody is going to cut off their genitalia to earn the meager wage of a female pool pro.

Second: No transgendered people we know of even posess the skills necessary to do so.

Third: Would a transgendered person even have that much of a physical advantage in the game of pool? Not talking about Mika/Thorsten/Shane in a dress here, I mean an actual transgender person. If the hormones had no effect, people wouldn't be taking them...

Natural born women have been and still are competitive at a fairly high level with men. Jean Balukas and Jasmine Ouschan are examples of that. If more women were actually interested in pool we would have more examples of this.
The reason the women remained on TV longer than the men is that their tour paid for the airtime. Because they actually had a tour, and an organization.


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06-20-2016, 01:24 PM

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Originally Posted by justadub View Post
The reason the women remained on TV longer than the men is that their tour paid for the airtime. Because they actually had a tour, and an organization.
I think it was at least in part due to the fact that SOME of the women's players were easier on the eyes.
  
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Why are all you men so concerned ????
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Why are all you men so concerned ???? - 06-21-2016, 12:59 AM

I've sat back and watched this thread for several days now, and just don't get it. What the hell are you MEN so F__cking worried about transgenders playing on the Women's Tour. Some of your comments and reasoning are in my opinion so DAMNED STUPID that I look at the STR8 world and wonder where all your STUPIDITY came from.

A very very dear friend of mine many years ago enter the BCA Nationals as a transgendered female (yes she is a female) and won. Yes she placed 1st. And I sat back and watched all you str8 men and women running back and forth between the rooms at the Riviera spouting off about "the he/she playing in the Women's Open".

Get the hell over it. As a gay man I have played in several leagues all over the country and had the listen to the FAG jokes and talk behind my back but it never bothered me because I KNEW WHO I WAS!!!!!! .... Your insecurities are all showing. The number of league nights I have had to listen to the FAG JOKES all night got me to the point that whenever I competed on the table and beat one of the offenders, I would shake his hand and ask him how it felt to be beaten by a FAG. Mouths dropped but it seemed to do the trick. The jokes and innuendos ceased when I was around cause I'd call you on it. And enough of you were STRONG ENOUGH IN YOUR SEXUALITY to accept me for who I was, just as I accepted them for who they were.

When I saw this thread start up, I could not find it coincidental that the weekend before 49 members of the LGBT community were murdered and 53 others wounded, and someone starts up a tread about TRANSGENDER individuals playing in Women's Tournaments. The WPA has considered the situation and written rules and regulations into their organization to RECOGNIZE THAT TRANSGENDERS DO EXIST. Why are you MEN so damned concerned about it. If you want to compete on the WPA Tour, start the hormones and phycological treatments that have to be endured by these individuals to become who they really feel that they are.

Live and let live GENTLEMEN. Life goes on and there are more pressing issues in this country right now that demand our attention than a thread like this.

Please don't start sending me vicious attacks in response. I've heard it all before in my almost 70 years on this planet. I enjoy the game of pool. I enjoy the relationships that I have made over the many years that I have played and the acceptance most have extended to me. It all boils down to one thing. WE ARE ALL PEOPLE. DESERVING OF THE RESPECT AND CARING THAT WE ALL DESERVE INDIVIDUALLY.

I see the person, male or female or transgender or gay or lesbian, white or black or Asian. We are all people, and we enjoy playing the same game. And that's what it is. A GAME. I win. I lose. But I don't care who I lose to or beat. I will shake their hand and say great shooting. Have a beer, and go home and go on with my life.

IT'S TO SHORT TO GET ALL CAUGHT UP IN THIS BULLSHIT.....

ok .... my rant is over .... CARRY ON !!!!!
  
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06-21-2016, 01:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by calcwby4u View Post
I've sat back and watched this thread for several days now, and just don't get it. What the hell are you MEN so F__cking worried about transgenders playing on the Women's Tour. Some of your comments and reasoning are in my opinion so DAMNED STUPID that I look at the STR8 world and wonder where all your STUPIDITY came from.

A very very dear friend of mine many years ago enter the BCA Nationals as a transgendered female (yes she is a female) and won. Yes she placed 1st. And I sat back and watched all you str8 men and women running back and forth between the rooms at the Riviera spouting off about "the he/she playing in the Women's Open".

Get the hell over it. As a gay man I have played in several leagues all over the country and had the listen to the FAG jokes and talk behind my back but it never bothered me because I KNEW WHO I WAS!!!!!! .... Your insecurities are all showing. The number of league nights I have had to listen to the FAG JOKES all night got me to the point that whenever I competed on the table and beat one of the offenders, I would shake his hand and ask him how it felt to be beaten by a FAG. Mouths dropped but it seemed to do the trick. The jokes and innuendos ceased when I was around cause I'd call you on it. And enough of you were STRONG ENOUGH IN YOUR SEXUALITY to accept me for who I was, just as I accepted them for who they were.

When I saw this thread start up, I could not find it coincidental that the weekend before 49 members of the LGBT community were murdered and 53 others wounded, and someone starts up a tread about TRANSGENDER individuals playing in Women's Tournaments. The WPA has considered the situation and written rules and regulations into their organization to RECOGNIZE THAT TRANSGENDERS DO EXIST. Why are you MEN so damned concerned about it. If you want to compete on the WPA Tour, start the hormones and phycological treatments that have to be endured by these individuals to become who they really feel that they are.

Live and let live GENTLEMEN. Life goes on and there are more pressing issues in this country right now that demand our attention than a thread like this.

Please don't start sending me vicious attacks in response. I've heard it all before in my almost 70 years on this planet. I enjoy the game of pool. I enjoy the relationships that I have made over the many years that I have played and the acceptance most have extended to me. It all boils down to one thing. WE ARE ALL PEOPLE. DESERVING OF THE RESPECT AND CARING THAT WE ALL DESERVE INDIVIDUALLY.

I see the person, male or female or transgender or gay or lesbian, white or black or Asian. We are all people, and we enjoy playing the same game. And that's what it is. A GAME. I win. I lose. But I don't care who I lose to or beat. I will shake their hand and say great shooting. Have a beer, and go home and go on with my life.

IT'S TO SHORT TO GET ALL CAUGHT UP IN THIS BULLSHIT.....

ok .... my rant is over .... CARRY ON !!!!!
I haven't seen anyone saying they want to ban anyone from anything simply because they are gay or transgendered and they are opposed to those things. The question is whether there is a biological advantage from being born male, if this advantage is retained while wearing a dress or after going through gender reassignment, and the fairness in competing on the women's tour with those who were not born with that biological advantage.

Men are very clearly superior to women at pool (for whatever the reasons, and the reasons are actually a part of this debate). So there are three really good questions that are involved here and that naturally being and should be discussed. The first question is, are men biologically superior at pool because of something physical and/or psychological that they are born with as opposed to it being solely because more men play pool than women, or because of environmental factors, or some other reason that is not biological? The second question is, that if this superiority at pool is in fact due to something biological that men are born with, does a man automatically lose all of that physical and/or psychological advantage once he gets his stuff cut off and/or takes hormones? And the third question is, if getting his stuff cut off and/or taking hormones does not in fact make him lose all of the biological advantages he was born with, is it fair for him to be able to compete with those that were born female and do not have those same biological advantages? I guess a fourth question could even be that even if the male advantage is solely environmental or otherwise not at all biological, is it fair for a transgender former male to compete on a women's tour since they got to have those advantages?

Those are very fair and reasonable questions to ask and are not anti-gay or anti-transgender in any way. If men are biologically superior at pool because of a physical and/or psychological advantage that they are born with, and they don't in fact lose all of that advantage even after taking hormones and/or after gender reassignment surgery, then there is an extremely strong argument to be made that it would not be fair to allow transgender women who were formerly men to compete with the women just the same as it is not fair for men to compete with the women--because they still retain some or all of those biological advantages that they were born with which makes such competition unfair. Those are very fair questions to seek answers to, and is a dilemma that must be addressed and answered, and that discussion as was being done in this thread is not in any way, shape, or form discriminatory. Your accusatory post and wording was way out of line and frankly I thought it was kind of offensive considering that it didn't even begin to apply here.

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06-21-2016, 02:27 AM

The above is what I should have said/asked. Thank you. Johnnyt


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06-21-2016, 03:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by calcwby4u View Post
I've sat back and watched this thread for several days now, and just don't get it. What the hell are you MEN so F__cking worried about transgenders playing on the Women's Tour. Some of your comments and reasoning are in my opinion so DAMNED STUPID that I look at the STR8 world and wonder where all your STUPIDITY came from.

A very very dear friend of mine many years ago enter the BCA Nationals as a transgendered female (yes she is a female) and won. Yes she placed 1st. And I sat back and watched all you str8 men and women running back and forth between the rooms at the Riviera spouting off about "the he/she playing in the Women's Open".

Get the hell over it. As a gay man I have played in several leagues all over the country and had the listen to the FAG jokes and talk behind my back but it never bothered me because I KNEW WHO I WAS!!!!!! .... Your insecurities are all showing. The number of league nights I have had to listen to the FAG JOKES all night got me to the point that whenever I competed on the table and beat one of the offenders, I would shake his hand and ask him how it felt to be beaten by a FAG. Mouths dropped but it seemed to do the trick. The jokes and innuendos ceased when I was around cause I'd call you on it. And enough of you were STRONG ENOUGH IN YOUR SEXUALITY to accept me for who I was, just as I accepted them for who they were.

When I saw this thread start up, I could not find it coincidental that the weekend before 49 members of the LGBT community were murdered and 53 others wounded, and someone starts up a tread about TRANSGENDER individuals playing in Women's Tournaments. The WPA has considered the situation and written rules and regulations into their organization to RECOGNIZE THAT TRANSGENDERS DO EXIST. Why are you MEN so damned concerned about it. If you want to compete on the WPA Tour, start the hormones and phycological treatments that have to be endured by these individuals to become who they really feel that they are.

Live and let live GENTLEMEN. Life goes on and there are more pressing issues in this country right now that demand our attention than a thread like this.

Please don't start sending me vicious attacks in response. I've heard it all before in my almost 70 years on this planet. I enjoy the game of pool. I enjoy the relationships that I have made over the many years that I have played and the acceptance most have extended to me. It all boils down to one thing. WE ARE ALL PEOPLE. DESERVING OF THE RESPECT AND CARING THAT WE ALL DESERVE INDIVIDUALLY.

I see the person, male or female or transgender or gay or lesbian, white or black or Asian. We are all people, and we enjoy playing the same game. And that's what it is. A GAME. I win. I lose. But I don't care who I lose to or beat. I will shake their hand and say great shooting. Have a beer, and go home and go on with my life.

IT'S TO SHORT TO GET ALL CAUGHT UP IN THIS BULLSHIT.....

ok .... my rant is over .... CARRY ON !!!!!
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06-21-2016, 06:34 AM

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Originally Posted by Johnnyt View Post
Anyone know if a transgender can play against women? I couldn't find any rule for it. Johnnyt
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06-21-2016, 06:40 AM

Why is there a separate tour for men and women?

There isn't any reason I can see why one gender has an advantage over another.
  
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06-21-2016, 06:55 AM

This is a discussion that is being had by many, many people the world over. I also find it peculiar that during each election cycle the topic of discussion typically turns to LGBT rights. Typical distraction tactics. It is known that no matter what side of the debate you are on the passion felt will compel you to chime in. If we are discussing this them we are not discussing immigration and border walls, welfare reform, social security or any other topic that is relevant to our decision making come November.

Having said that this discussion needs to take place, for the exact reason that you find outrageous. Just the fact that some will chime in about taping junk up and swallowing this and that. The ignorance is still rife. There are real people with real feelings who are not trying to steal someone's prize money. People who are just trying to find a way that they can be themselves. My question is this: Where do you draw the line? It is very easy for someone who has chosen hormone therapy to say that at the very least hormone therapy should be the line, but there are many people who identify the same as them but who are strongly opposed to mutilating themselves or altering their body chemistry. Having to become someone else in order to be yourself, or in the very least to prove to others that you are serious is not an option for many people, that does not change how they identify.

I don't want to paint reassignment in a negative light. For those who choose that option for the reason to make themselves happy then it is a good thing. I am glad that get can find a way to be themselves. I just don't think that should be the benchmark.

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some studies would suggest men have an advantage
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some studies would suggest men have an advantage - 06-21-2016, 07:02 AM

There is a lot of research that can be found online that support the following: Men perform better than women at spatial relationship and seeing patterns. Men also perform better with respect to calculations and mathematical concepts. These are all very integral parts of billiard games. Thus, if the bulk of existing scientific studies support these statements, then it is accurate to say that being born a male would give potential advantage on average over someone born female in the game of billiards. As pointed out by others already...the number of transgender individuals competing at the professional level in Women's Pro Billiards is quite small and at least to date, none have made it into the upper rankings. Simply Google "men are better at spatial relationship" to find actual studies and information online. From a strictly physical strength and coordination standpoint, there really is not a huge difference although the break can be a big factor and strength and mass does play a part in the break.


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06-21-2016, 07:18 AM

I will attempt to explain only once:

Testosterone plays a role in certain behaviors, including aggression and dominance. It also helps to spark competitiveness and boost self-esteem. Just as sexual activity can affect testosterone levels, taking part in competitive activities can cause a human testosterone levels to rise or fall. Low testosterone may result in a loss of confidence and lack of motivation. It can also lower a human's ability to concentrate or cause feelings of sadness. Low testosterone can cause sleep disturbances and lack of energy.


Verbal memory, spatial ability and fine motor skills are all influenced by estrogens and the strategies used to solve spatial or navigational puzzles differs between having a higher estrogen level or having a higher testosterone level.


There is no physical advantage in the game of billiards, men and women are on an even playing field when it comes to physical attributes however there are mental differences that are completely based on the present hormones fluctuating through your brain and central nervous system.


You can find out more about the person Rhea Nicole Brooks. Who is behind the billiard phenom. http://www.facebook.com/TheQueenOfDiamonds
  
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