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08-23-2016, 10:47 AM

RE: All of the above .....

why APA sucks ......
  
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08-23-2016, 10:49 AM

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Originally Posted by calcwby4u View Post
RE: All of the above .....

why APA sucks ......
Yup. Cuz one guy had a less than favorable experience, compared to all the other great trip reports from this years tourney, "APA sucks"....

Comedy.


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08-23-2016, 11:05 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElLeon View Post
I went for 9-ball and only have these points to add:

1) There is effectively no shot clock at the nationals. Now, before you get your panties in a bunch, yes, there ARE rules about shot clock (in no less than 4 locations within all the paperwork they give you). But there is no enforcement of the rules. One 9-ball match between two skill level 3 players took 1 hour and 45 minutes. Their player averaged over 1 minute per shot (not per inning). We tracked with a timing app.

Part way through the 1st rack I informed their captain of his slow play. He didn't care.

I informed the judge. He told me directly "there is nothing I can do, we have been instructed not to talk to any team, captain or shooter about slow play. All I can do is call a floor manager".

Floor manager shows up and watches for about 5 minutes (approximately 5 shots) and says "Yes, he is definitely going way over the shot clock. I will ask the head judge".

Nothing happens at all. The match spans approximately 1 hour 20 minutes after that point. Not a single damn thing.

Had we not hurried with a big win in match #2, the third match would have been sudden death. We avoided sudden death in the third match by approximately 5 minutes.


2) Judges do not know the rules for 9-ball. Specifically the "stalemate" rule. Nor do they stop play to consult a rule book if they do not know the rule (while admitting they are unsure of a rule).

3) They will deny a captain from looking up the rule that they are miss-interpreting and allow a shooter to shoot. Then say "sorry, we should have stopped play, but now they shot so there is nothing we can do".


So aside from those, it was nice. Westgate is an improvement over Rivera for sure. But the judging and enforcement of rules down there was absolutely pitiful.
It would take a lot for me to call on a referee for slow play. No offense to you because I agree it does get frustrating at times, but some people play at a slower pace and some people use it as a shark. I just sit back, hang out, and wait for my turn.


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08-23-2016, 12:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegitStick1234 View Post
I just sit back, hang out, and wait for my turn.
Which is fine until they force your team into a sudden death situation.

Slow play should not be tolerated at all PERIOD. If you abuse it, you get warned. You abuse it again and your entire team gets put on the clock for the remainder of the tournament and you begin giving up BIH and forfeiting games. Those are the rules and that is exactly how it should be called every single time.

With that I am not saying, nor would I expect them, to clock 20 secs every single shot and 45 for more difficult situations. However, if you stand over an easy shot for 30 secs virtually every time and sometimes take more than a minute to stand over the shot before calling a coach, then your team should start to be punished. Whether it is your pace of play or how you feel comfortable is irrelevant. Learn to play at a faster pace just like any other skill you need to improve on or suffer the consequences of failing to do so.

I personally don't mind slow play typically, but I would shark the hell out of them by harassing them about it. I would get their entire team up in a frenzy if they didn't get their player to shoot faster.
  
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08-23-2016, 01:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElLeon View Post
Your points:

1) Shot clock:
A: This topic was clearly and directly discussed during the team captains meeting (and corresponding paperwork) that excessively slow play would result in BIH fouls called by the referee.

In practice the referee stated that he did not have the authority to talk to any team/player/captain about slow play. Therefore a logical fallacy is created whereby there effectively becomes absolutely no time limit in any capacity.

The match lasted 1:45 for two skill level 3 players to try and get 25 points (49 points in the event of a hill-hill match), there were a total of 21 innings in the match. Assigning an arbitrary period of time to rack, physically walk to address the cue ball and the one time out per rack, there is no reasonable argument that a match such as that should have taken 58% of the total time allocation given for the five matches that go into a single game. Your argument and question is as invalid as your sentence structure is.

Aditionally, i'll support this assertion with some source material to please your bleeding heart.

Team manual, page 7 directly addresses the ediquite of slow play:
http://media.poolplayers.com/TMRB/Te...al-English.pdf

When I return from Burning Man in a few weeks, i'll also post scanned images of the documentation for the APA World Championships discussing the shot clock and enforcement of the rules.

Taking ego out of this (which apparently you intoned) an average of over 60 seconds per shot is a clear violation of this rule. Stated dispassionately and without vitriol, so you can understand this clearly.

2) Stalemate interpretation:
A: Again, i'll be direct here so you can understand this simple concept as you used your heart instead of your brain to assess what was said:

"Even after having addressed the cue ball a player may, if
not satisfied with the placement, make further adjustments
with his hand, cue stick or any other reasonable piece of
equipment. A foul may be called only if the player fouls the
cue ball while actually stroking at the cue ball, meaning a
double hit of the cue ball (sometimes called double clutching).
The ball-in-hand rule penalizes a player for an error. Without
this rule, a person can actually benefit by accidentally or
purposely scratching or otherwise fouling. In the unlikely
event that a game should ever become stalemated, meaning
that neither player wants or can make use of ball-in-hand,
then the balls are reracked, the same player breaks and
the innings for the stalemated game are crossed off the
scoresheet."


Source: Official 2016/2017 rulebook, page 6
http://media.poolplayers.com/TMRB/Ru...et-English.pdf

3) Being denied the opportunity to look a rule up:

A: Yes, the referee directly said "I will not pause play for you to look up rules"

4) Did it directly impact the game?
A: Yes it did. Their player quickly grabbed the cueball at their team captains urging and used the favorite rule of all APA players... "Any Pocket A-hole!" and smashed the balls as hard as possible. Resulting in one slop point, then ran the remaining 4 balls for the win as he was 5 points from the total needed to win the match at the time of the rules discussion.


5) How many times did you call a referee?
A: As you like to be a dunce about this, i'll ask you to further clarify your statement. Do you mean how many times was a referee called over to watch a shot, or how many times was a referee called to apply a ruling aside from "good/bad hit"?

6) Your un-asked question:
A: ABSOLUTELY!!! There is often a time to compose a proper sentence, organize your thoughts and write about them clearly. Give it a try! Even my 10 year old can do it. Some day you'll be there if you give it a try sometime soon!
Shot clock - I fail to see anything except a guideline. I see where it gives a guideline, what is it? 20 and 45 seconds or something like that? I'm sure that at the 21 second mark you were right there screaming for a referee and demanding a foul. If the match was lasting way too long for your taste I would think that perhaps players, both players, we're nervous and missing shots they normally wouldn't miss and the players, both players, we're over thinking and taking too long. That's a product of poor coaching, on both sides. Page 7? You mean the portion that gives the time GUIDELINES? I'm still missing where this says ball in hand foul, will you point that out, please. Also, in looking over the rules of whatever the APA calls it now - World Pool Championship, I still see guidelines. I don't recall ever hearing that a referee could issue a ball in hand foul for the ficticious shot clock violation. I believe at the national level a shot clock violation is a sportsmanship violation and would need to be brought to the attention of a floor manager or tournament director and a warning would be given before any such violation was called.
In some areas I know they impose an actual shot clock, but that would be considered a local rule which I'm sure you know isn't applicable on the national level

Stalemate - I have read that portion of the rules too. That's what I also understand the rule regarding a stalemate to be. We're you in a stalemate situation and it was not handled according to the rule?

Looking up a rule - So if I understand you correctly, the referee confiscated your rule book and didn't allow you to look up a rule? If that's not what happened I'm not sure why you didn't feel free to look up all the rules you wanted. But stopping the match so you could do so, that would be wrong. If you feel the ruling was wrong you ask for the floor manager as we were instructed to do, if you still don't agree and you think it impacted the outcome of the game / match you pay your fee and file a protest. If you really fell you were right you should have no problem doing this.

How many times was a referee called? - I wish I could say it slower for you, how many times did your team call a referee regararding a game related situation is - "watch a hit," "what's the rule?" You know, things like that. How often were they right/wrong? How often did you bring this to the attention of the floor manager? How often did you make use of the vehicles available to you and file a protest?

My apologies if you had a hard time understanding what I had posted previously, I've tried to be a little more organized this time so it would be easier for you read and comprehend.

I imagine I'd be right if I were to guess your team didn't win the 9 ball event. While at the APA event I overheard many conversations filled with all sorts of excuses, "the felt was bad", "the tables rolled bad", "those guys were a bunch of sandbaggers", "I was hung over", "the tables were too close together"..... I think only once did I actually hear, "my opponent was just better than me today". Surprisingly rare was the excuse blaming the referee, but as usual you don't disappoint. If you manage to qualify next year maybe, since your experience was as bad as it was this year, maybe you shouldn't go.

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08-23-2016, 01:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celophanewrap View Post
That's a product of poor coaching, on both sides. Page 7? You mean the portion that gives the time GUIDELINES? I'm still missing where this says ball in hand foul, will you point that out, please. Also, in looking over the rules of whatever the APA calls it now - World Pool Championship, I still see guidelines. I don't recall ever hearing that a referee could issue a ball in hand foul for the fictions shot clock violation. I believe at the national level a shot clock violation is a sportsmanship violation and would need to be brought to the attention of a floor manager or tournament director and a warning would be given before any such violation was called.
Weekly league play it is a guideline as there are no higher authority people there to enforce it. At higher level play it is in the rules they give you that you sign along with the skill validation part. The penalty gets more severe starting with a warning, shot clock and then a BIH fouls, then you begin forfeiting games. The severity continues to follow the entire team, not just the offending player, and it continues to escalate until the team is no longer in the tournament.

I am pretty sure you posted previously you were a ref at events such as this and this is not a new rule.

Here it is straight from the website.: http://www.poolplayers.com/wpc/rules/
29.f. Excessively slow play will not be tolerated. You will be warned before any penalty occurs.
The penalties for violating any of the six categories detailed above are as follows: A warning may or may not be given, depending upon the severity of the situation.
Penalty Level 1 - Your opponent will be given ball‐in‐hand. If the player is still shooting, or already has ball‐in‐hand, then that player will be allowed to shoot until missing, and then be given ball‐in‐hand again.
Penalty Level 2 - Your opponent will be granted the game. (In 9‐Ball, your opponent will be granted the game, along with points for all balls remaining on the table.)
Penalty Level 3 - Your opponent will be granted the match.
Penalty Level 4 - Disqualification.
Note: If the violation or disturbance that caused the initial penalty level to be levied does not cease, the Tournament Director and/or designated assistant has the right to go from one penalty level to the next penalty level immediately.

Last edited by Skippy27; 08-23-2016 at 02:06 PM.
  
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08-23-2016, 04:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy27 View Post
Weekly league play it is a guideline as there are no higher authority people there to enforce it. At higher level play it is in the rules they give you that you sign along with the skill validation part. The penalty gets more severe starting with a warning, shot clock and then a BIH fouls, then you begin forfeiting games. The severity continues to follow the entire team, not just the offending player, and it continues to escalate until the team is no longer in the tournament.

I am pretty sure you posted previously you were a ref at events such as this and this is not a new rule.

Here it is straight from the website.: http://www.poolplayers.com/wpc/rules/
29.f. Excessively slow play will not be tolerated. You will be warned before any penalty occurs.
The penalties for violating any of the six categories detailed above are as follows: A warning may or may not be given, depending upon the severity of the situation.
Penalty Level 1 - Your opponent will be given ball‐in‐hand. If the player is still shooting, or already has ball‐in‐hand, then that player will be allowed to shoot until missing, and then be given ball‐in‐hand again.
Penalty Level 2 - Your opponent will be granted the game. (In 9‐Ball, your opponent will be granted the game, along with points for all balls remaining on the table.)
Penalty Level 3 - Your opponent will be granted the match.
Penalty Level 4 - Disqualification.
Note: If the violation or disturbance that caused the initial penalty level to be levied does not cease, the Tournament Director and/or designated assistant has the right to go from one penalty level to the next penalty level immediately.
Ok, "excessive slow play..." and you'll find a definition for "excessive slow play" where?
In the "guidlines" section?
Slow play is, at best, subjective, and I would bet it's gonna take more than a few shots to be considered excessive. Not so much that I disagree with you, because I really don't, but the fact is there is no hard rule that says when a shot clock will be imposed. Some of you may interpret the term "guideline" as a rule, but that's not what a guideline is and it is at the discretion of the tournament director when that shot clock would be imposed.
The referee should be notified of slow play, that accusation would be forwarded on to the floor manager and the tournament director who would then make the determination regarding a shot clock.
I would guess that the floor manager and tournament director didn't see it the way what's his nuts did. Maybe what's his nuts was a little over excited at the 21 second mark.
Still, I see only guidlines, nothing that is a hard rule
  
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08-23-2016, 05:12 PM

You can nitpick until your fingers bleed, but you and I both can tell when someone is playing slow. We can then reference the guidelines provided and expect normal shots to take less than 20sec typically and not 40-50 sec typically.
  
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08-23-2016, 06:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElLeon View Post
Your points:

2) Stalemate interpretation:
A: Again, i'll be direct here so you can understand this simple concept as you used your heart instead of your brain to assess what was said:

"Even after having addressed the cue ball a player may, if
not satisfied with the placement, make further adjustments
with his hand, cue stick or any other reasonable piece of
equipment. A foul may be called only if the player fouls the
cue ball while actually stroking at the cue ball, meaning a
double hit of the cue ball (sometimes called double clutching).
The ball-in-hand rule penalizes a player for an error. Without
this rule, a person can actually benefit by accidentally or
purposely scratching or otherwise fouling. In the unlikely
event that a game should ever become stalemated, meaning
that neither player wants or can make use of ball-in-hand,
then the balls are reracked, the same player breaks and
the innings for the stalemated game are crossed off the
scoresheet."


Source: Official 2016/2017 rulebook, page 6
http://media.poolplayers.com/TMRB/Ru...et-English.pdf
The text quoted above is on page 50 of the current manual (just for clarification), which is in the 8-Ball rules section. Since you were playing 9-Ball, the stalemate instructions in the last paragraph on page 67 apply. Namely, points, innings, and defensive shots stand, all remaining points on the table are marked dead, and the person who broke in the stalemated game breaks again. Is that how the ref ruled?
  
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08-23-2016, 07:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy27 View Post
You can nitpick until your fingers bleed, but you and I both can tell when someone is playing slow. We can then reference the guidelines provided and expect normal shots to take less than 20sec typically and not 40-50 sec typically.
Then it will be a foul, or what?
  
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08-23-2016, 09:01 PM

Not singling any particular person out but son people can be such nit pickers and drama queens .

I'm glad I have a go with the Flo attitude ......99.9% of the time. It takes a lot to get me bent out of shape concerning situations that arise when shooting pool.

Will comment on one particular persons statement though. Skippy...im surprised at your statement of shark in the other team...shame on you. I thought you were strictly by the book at all times.

I went to Vegas for 9 ball 3 years ago as captain of my team. I threw myself Las almost every round. It just so happens that the 1st 2 rounds my matches started with sudden death. I was quite surprised when the ref came up at the beginning of my 1st match that it would be sudden death. I had never heard of it before and asked him to explain It.

I decided no biggie to me but the opposing team captain and my opponent were pretty upset about it. I more or less had to shut my opponent out since we were down 48-32. My opponent was pretty stressed out about the sudden death apparently or maybe he was not a very good 5....i dunno but I was up 19-1 and the ref was gonna call the match. . The other captain complained saying it was possible his player could mount a comeback. The ref looked over at me ...more or less shrugging his shoulders as to what I thought. I told him lets continue and finish the match. He said ok. I won 20-0 . I could have his as easily lost if he had made a few balls .they only needed 3 points to win but I am the type of guy who wants to win on the table and dont want a win due to a rule or technicality.

2nd round I won 19-1. Btw I am a 5 and both opponents were 5's.

Speaking of sharking....I had an interesting conversation with the opposing captain of my 2nd round match the following day when we passed each other in the lobby. He asked how we were doing. I told him that we had got put out in the 4th round. He said he thought I was gonna carry my team to the finals the way I was shooting. I laughed and said it takes a team effort.

He said that during the 2nd rack of my match with his player that he knew his guy was going to be in trouble when I shot the 4 ball in and got perfect on the 5. I asked...is that why you called time to have an observer come watch my shot on the 5 ? . He grinned sheepishly and said yea but it did not di any good. He said I sat down and sipped my drink and looked around the room like I did not have a care in the world and then got up and ran the table after an observer came and watches the shot on the 5.

I told him I thought that was why he called for an observer and found it amusing. I also said if I had missed the 5 I would have blamed myself and not him like so many people do quite often

I just dint get why every one wants to blame rules...opponents behavior ...tables....environment....everything under the sun for their loss when they bed to look in the mirror. Either you make a ball and win or you miss and lose...its that simple.
  
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08-23-2016, 10:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celophanewrap View Post
Then it will be a foul, or what?
The 4 progressive levels are above.
  
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08-23-2016, 11:03 PM

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Originally Posted by lorider View Post

Will comment on one particular persons statement though. Skippy...im surprised at your statement of shark in the other team...shame on you. I thought you were strictly by the book at all times.
For the most part I am but there are 2 things at play here:
1. I would prefer the other team gets on their player to get them to speed up instead of me having to get an official to start watching them. At the point that they get aggravated or refuse to do so then....
2. I will not sit idle and watch the opponent try to force us into sudden death through slow play so I will get a ref.
  
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08-23-2016, 11:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy27 View Post
For the most part I am but there are 2 things at play here:
1. I would prefer the other team gets on their player to get them to speed up instead of me having to get an official to start watching them. At the point that they get aggravated or refuse to do so then....
2. I will not sit idle and watch the opponent try to force us into sudden death through slow play so I will get a ref.
I am not a proponent of slow play by any means but what makes you think some one is deliberately forcing you into sudden death ? I don't like playing slow players but I don't get all bent out of shape over it.

I am not a slow player but I have been known to drag a match out to 30-40 innings by playing safes. I had a match at Napa nationals go over 3 hours before I finally won 4-4 in a 4-5 race. I betcha you and el Leon would hate to play me lol.
  
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mental - 08-24-2016, 04:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy27 View Post
The 4 progressive levels are above.
I'd love to see you try and point that out to a tournentry official. I can just see you going up to a referee, "that's level 2". LOL!
Love your passion, but you're gonna get an ulcer.
Some people take a little longer. If it's not a melicious attempt to shark you, does it really matter?
  
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